namelesstavern.net

Harrison wrote:I don't understand addiction in general.

I didn't either for a very long time, and then I read a book that changed that. You should try reading it. It's called A Million Little Pieces by James Frey.

Arlos wrote:*shrug* A very good friend of mine has been smoking pot since high school, and at various times has tried shrooms, acid, speed, ecstasy and a few others (though as of right now all he uses is pot, pretty much), and both owns his own home here in the bay area (you seen the house prices here?), pulls in well over 100k a year, and is the main person sent around the world by his employer on business travel to solve customer issues. In the last year he's been to Japan, Korea, China, England, Holland, Germany and France, and it's looking like he may be sent to India shortly.

And I can name you several dozen people with advanced degrees who are in their 30s and havent worked in a long time due to drugs, Arlos.

I'll gladly give you points for making an argument in relation to Pot, but an occasional bowl is way different than Drems argument about hordes of illicit drug users with no issues.

The discussion isn't about pot. It's about drug legalization. I have people very close to me who've battled some nasty drug demons. Too much for me to take some of the things Drem is saying, since I KNOW you've had to see some of the same results of Coke that I have.

Actually, I've not known anyone who's screwed themselves up with coke. I have known a few people that got close to screwing themselves up with speed, but were smart enough to stop taking it.

Basically, any drug is a problem if it is abused. The issue with some drugs currently illegal is that they are extremely physically addictive, and thus prone to misuse. However, that's no different than Tobacco, to be honest. It's all a matter of the speed at which they kill you, and while nicotene may not be quite as addictive as crack, it's still insanely addictive.

I have known people who have taken just about every different pharmaceutical you can name, and have absolutely no problem with any of them, and are extremely successful. I have also known people who's sole concession to "screwing up their life" with drugs was as the result of a possession conviction, which would have obviously not been an issue if the stuff was legal.

In all actuality, I think the risks from many of the drugs are fairly overstated, and in some cases come from their illegality. Many studies have shown it is VASTLY more cost effective to educate people about the issues with using drugs and treat those who do devlop abusive patterns than it is to enact draconian drug laws. You end up with less people using, and those who do use do so more responsibly, because there's no stigma or looming "screw your life up" side to seeking help when it is needed.

If you look at the deaths due to drug issues from 2002, you can see the following: Tobacco-related deaths: 406,290. Alcohol-related deaths: 116,000. Deaths due to mis-use of prescription drugs: 106,000. Deaths due to all illegal drugs COMBINED: 19,102. Deaths due solely to Marijuana: 0. At least some of the illegal drug deaths are due to people taking stuff that they think is one thing, but is really another, or from taking drugs that are laced with other things. If one could purchase these from actual vendors, instead of through illegal suppliers, those problems would vanish completely.

I also find the argument that making drugs more "readily available" by legalizing them will suddenly cause a huge (10fold+) rise in addiction cases. Tobacco addiction rates are dropping due to education on the dangers, and it's legal. Also, anyone who wants to use illegal drugs will and can find them. The legality makes it take a while sometimes, but finding them at all is rarely if ever an issue.

I am also all for the re-legalization of industrial hemp. One of the larger environmental issues going on right now is the ever-growing need for pulp from trees to make paper. Hemp makes paper just as good, or better, than tree-pulp paper, and it doesn't take 20 years for hemp to grow to harvestable size, unlike a tree. Add in all the other uses, especially if we're looking at biodiesel as a way to cut our dependence on foreign oil, and hemp looks perfect. It grows in basically any climate, takes little to no irrigation, requires no pesticides, and takes very little work on the part of the farmers. Oh, and as I've said before, industrial hemp has so little THC in it that it is impossible to smoke enough to get even remotely high.

-Arlos

ARLOS YOU EVIL POT HEAD

Arlos wrote:Basically, any drug is a problem if it is abused. The issue with some drugs currently illegal is that they are extremely physically addictive, and thus prone to misuse. However, that's no different than Tobacco, to be honest. It's all a matter of the speed at which they kill you, and while nicotene may not be quite as addictive as crack, it's still insanely addictive.

I have known people who have taken just about every different pharmaceutical you can name, and have absolutely no problem with any of them, and are extremely successful. I have also known people who's sole concession to "screwing up their life" with drugs was as the result of a possession conviction, which would have obviously not been an issue if the stuff was legal.

I wouldn't compare Nicotine addiction to Heroin or Cocaine. The difference is so profound it'd take a long, new thread to go over all of them,

I think you understate the powers of these drugs and the effects they can have on people, but again I've seen friends in the workplace and overseas who have severe health issues. My experiences are different than yours. Certainly it's not the 'average' but it's not largely uncommon.

Many European countries have done heavy studies on hardcore drugs and they remain illegal for a reason even in some of the most liberal places.

Hey guys, take two people who are identical to eachother in every way.

Then put one on drugs.

Which one is gonna lead a healthier life?

Shut up, stoner faggots.

Yes, Lyion, I've seen it happen a few times, but the addicts you hear about and the ODs you hear about really are about 1 or 2 in a million. It's such a weak point for anti-legalisation mongers. There are blinding statistics that tell you what? About 100,000 more people died from prescription drug abuse/adverse reactions than people using every single fucking illicit drug known to man combined. If that isn't convincing enough, I don't know what is. You can't make blanket assumptions, either, that there are a far greater number of prescription drug users than illicit drug users. I'm sure it's true to an extent, but it's also probably completely proportionate. There are bad seeds in every aspect of the world and you know that those are what our government likes to highlight to put things they don't approve of in a negative light. It's understandable, but it's also unfair.

FYI, Mindia, Methadone is not "legal heroin." Morphine is the closest thing to that (since, like I said, heroin's real name is "diacetyl morphine"). They're similar, but not the same. Methadone is for waning people off of opium addictions and is an ultra-mild narcotic. Heroin is a powerful narcotic. A pain-killer. It's exactly the same as morphine but the euphoria comes on much faster. And in an instance where morphine helps but doesn't quite do the trick (like in Saving Private Ryan when the guy is screaming "More morphine! more morphine!"), that's when heroin should be used. The fastest-acting pain killer on the planet. I'm not saying you should be able to go to Hirons and get a gram of it, though. Don't put words in my mouth.

PS: Lyion, you're horribly wrong about nicotine addiction. Its addiction is easily comparable to cocaine addiction. It kills hundreds of thousands more people than cocaine (but here I would easily say your blanket statement is applicable), it's much more toxic (it takes 60mg to overdose on nicotine, it takes 1 - 1.5g of cocaine to overdose. small difference, right?). It's statistically 5 to 7 times more addicting than cocaine. It even triggers the same effect in your body (a flood of dopamine). The only reason nicotine kills you slower is because of its regulated dosage.

You seem think like you do and say they're incomparable because of dosage differences and your exposure to nicotine is probably 473728932-fold your exposure to cocaine. So where does your bias lay? Of course, with the illegal drug that kills less maybe 1% of the amount of people than nictone does, has a much lower toxicity level, and isn't used as a fucking pesticide like nicotine is. Very lol to me. You sound like a slave to the government's scare tactics when you say nicotine is less-dangerous. You're passing a very toxic drug off as "happenstance" because you see it around you all the time. And since it's sold in stores and there are commercials, so it can't be nearly as bad as cocaine, right?

Just think of it like: Nicotine is such a harmful poison to people that the government has regulated dosages down to as low as 1mg of nicotine in a cigarette. If it were illegal and nicotine were on the black market, people would die at a staggering rate because it takes about one drop of nicotine in your bloodstream to kill you. If all drugs were regulated in such a manner with legitimate, un-biased information like people get nowadays about nicotine, people wouldn't be as stupid about them, which has, essentially, been my point for this whole arguement.

Dylan wrote:Hey guys, take two people who are identical to eachother in every way.

Then put one on drugs.

Which one is gonna lead a healthier life?

Shut up, stoner faggots.

idiot. Take two people who are identical to each other in every way, then put one of them on sugar. MAKE SUGAR ILLEGAL.

I know several fatass pork eatin cigarette smokin rednecks, and i know several vegetarian, physically active, college-degreed stoners.

So, your example is fuckin stupid and makes no sense and doesnt in any way make any sort of point. Go back to high school and figure somethin else out.

Dylan wrote:Hey guys, take two people who are identical to each other in every way.

Then have one drink alcohol frequently.

Which one is gonna lead a healthier life?

Shut up, drunkard faggots.

There, fixed!

-Arlos

You faggots are arguing over which form of chemical death is better than the other.

I drink, and I drink often. Am I about to say it is better than cocaine? Fuck no. I'm not retarded.

Actually I'm not talking about that but way to sound tough, dude.

lyion wrote:Remember, these drugs are much more potent and addicting. So the billions we spend now would be expanded tremendously. These are a few things that I can think of, I'm sure there are more

Addiction rehab.
Lost work.
medical costs.
Societal Infrastructure costs.
public accidents.
Crimes to support drugs.
Social welfare costs since many druggies won't be able to work. We have a bunch we support now and drugs are illegal.
Pharmaceutical costs
Costs for children born from druggies
etc, etc

Most European nations have for all intensive purposes legalized drugs.... They spend WAY less on the *problem* and have less drug use.

The simple fact is that in America drugs are taboo and because of that I think a lot of people do them out of curiousity or because its a rush to basically break the law.

If we legalized I guarantee usage would go up for awhile, but eventually people would get over it and it wouldn't be a big deal and the use woudl plummet.

Drugs are bad, so we have to save people from them... So lets throw them in prison for a few years?

yunno, because drugs aren't available in prisons at all

Awesome singer!

I must be on drugs, because for a split second I thought that was Robert Chambers

A right click on the properties says "Scott Weiland"

A guy who should be on drugs for the sake of music.

You see, I think drugs have done some good things for us. I really do. And If you don't believe drugs have done good things for us, do me a favour. Go home tonight take all your albums, all your tapes and all your CDs and burn them. 'Cause You know what the musicians that made all that great music that's enhanced your lives throughout the years? RrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrEAL fucking high on drugs... The Beatles were so fucking high they let Ringo sing a few songs.

-Bill Hicks

heh

http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=slv2- ... and+busted

Drem wrote:Yes, Lyion, I've seen it happen a few times, but the addicts you hear about and the ODs you hear about really are about 1 or 2 in a million. It's such a weak point for anti-legalisation mongers. There are blinding statistics that tell you what? About 100,000 more people died from prescription drug abuse/adverse reactions than people using every single fucking illicit drug known to man combined. If that isn't convincing enough, I don't know what is. You can't make blanket assumptions, either, that there are a far greater number of prescription drug users than illicit drug users. I'm sure it's true to an extent, but it's also probably completely proportionate. There are bad seeds in every aspect of the world and you know that those are what our government likes to highlight to put things they don't approve of in a negative light. It's understandable, but it's also unfair.

FYI, Mindia, Methadone is not "legal heroin." Morphine is the closest thing to that (since, like I said, heroin's real name is "diacetyl morphine"). They're similar, but not the same. Methadone is for waning people off of opium addictions and is an ultra-mild narcotic. Heroin is a powerful narcotic. A pain-killer. It's exactly the same as morphine but the euphoria comes on much faster. And in an instance where morphine helps but doesn't quite do the trick (like in Saving Private Ryan when the guy is screaming "More morphine! more morphine!"), that's when heroin should be used. The fastest-acting pain killer on the planet. I'm not saying you should be able to go to Hirons and get a gram of it, though. Don't put words in my mouth.

PS: Lyion, you're horribly wrong about nicotine addiction. Its addiction is easily comparable to cocaine addiction. It kills hundreds of thousands more people than cocaine (but here I would easily say your blanket statement is applicable), it's much more toxic (it takes 60mg to overdose on nicotine, it takes 1 - 1.5g of cocaine to overdose. small difference, right?). It's statistically 5 to 7 times more addicting than cocaine. It even triggers the same effect in your body (a flood of dopamine). The only reason nicotine kills you slower is because of its regulated dosage.

You seem think like you do and say they're incomparable because of dosage differences and your exposure to nicotine is probably 473728932-fold your exposure to cocaine. So where does your bias lay? Of course, with the illegal drug that kills less maybe 1% of the amount of people than nictone does, has a much lower toxicity level, and isn't used as a fucking pesticide like nicotine is. Very lol to me. You sound like a slave to the government's scare tactics when you say nicotine is less-dangerous. You're passing a very toxic drug off as "happenstance" because you see it around you all the time. And since it's sold in stores and there are commercials, so it can't be nearly as bad as cocaine, right?

Just think of it like: Nicotine is such a harmful poison to people that the government has regulated dosages down to as low as 1mg of nicotine in a cigarette. If it were illegal and nicotine were on the black market, people would die at a staggering rate because it takes about one drop of nicotine in your bloodstream to kill you. If all drugs were regulated in such a manner with legitimate, un-biased information like people get nowadays about nicotine, people wouldn't be as stupid about them, which has, essentially, been my point for this whole arguement.

This whole argument is flawed.

Drugs don't kill, drugs destroy lives.

However, this is due to a lack of information provided and some serious misinformation and ostracization with drug use.

I don't see anything wrong with a bowl a day, nor do I see anything wrong with a six pack a day, but start going beyond that and you'll see the addiction destroying a life.

Do all the drugs you want. I just know I'm better than you knowing I don't need anything to get me through the day or make me feel special. Being that dependant on something (drugs/alcohol/smoking) is pathetic.

never thought i'd say it, but i'm in complete agreement with Taxx