namelesstavern.net

Don't know if any of you have seen this, or if this has been posted before.
http://novakeo.com/?p=262

I watched about 1 minute of that before I wanted to punch a wall. If you honestly believe that United and American Airlines are going to launch unnoticed with missles on their planes you should do the world a favor and eat some cyanide.

That video makes me sick.

That's half the argument, that it wasn't even a documented American Airlines. Watch the rest, it covers a variety of controversies.

yeah i don't buy the whole "firing the missiles at the last second" claim whatsoever

but that stuff about the pentagon i think is right on

I'll be the first to admit there are some holes in the government story, however, the creators of this video aren't doing anyone any favors by forming wild conspiracy theories based on a few blurry videos and conflicting non-expert testimony

Do i think what happened on 9-11 is exactly what thre government and media have told us? probably not. Do i think that the bush administration in conspiracy with the airline industry really fired a missile or purposely blew up the WTC? no...and I'd suggest if you honestly believe that you should seek professional help.

sorry but this video is just creating paranoia

I can tell you that they were indeed American Airlines planes. Trusting the media to report the facts correctly when it comes to airlines is laughable. Quote a breaking news story about the airlines, and I'll show you several serious problems with it.

I think it's an interesting video because it shows several clips that I've never seen before. The pentagon portion is definitely interesting...

One major flaw of the video though was in the portion where they compared the fires burning in the WTC towers, to similar fires in other buildings. Their claim was that it was impossible for the WTC towers to collapse JUST because of the fires, but did they forget what a 747 crashing into towers does to the infrastructure of a building? The fires probably did little in the actual collapse of the building considering it collapsed within an hour of impact. On a side note, I remember while taking the Sears Tower tours in Chicago, they'd always talk about how the building had to be reinforced after being built because the wind would make the top of the Sears Tower sway on a windy day. If a gust a wind can make the Sears Tower sway, what does a 747 crashing into it do?


Anyways, interesting video. I hadn't seen it before, but obviously flawed in many ways.

I find the first part suspect, the quality of photos and the conclusions they draw are sketchy at best imho.

One aspect of the Pentagon that I don't think many people realize, and even having seen it inside and out, it's hard to fathom the sheer size of the building, it's massive. It wasn't until I was standing in the center court yard (that little tiny spot you see in the center in aireal photographs) that I truely appreciated it's size. Size comparison, and what you are seeing in the photographs and videos is probably gonna be out of scale perception wise for most people. The second part of the video does raise some interesting points however. The jet wash created by a low flying commercial air liner would throw vehicles around, but again eyewitness accounts of elevation when it passed over could very well be incorrect due to perception. If a bullet is fired over your head it will sound like it passed right by your ear. I think it's pretty obvious from the photos that the object that hit the Pentago didn't scrape across the lawn, however the light poles being thrown away from the building would be consistent with the effects of jet wash and not impact.

here's a more interesting question to me...why has none of the information from the flight data recorders installed in the planes been recovered and released? Government sources state that the "Black Boxes" from the WTC's and the Pentagon were never recovered or were irrepairably damaged...

that doesn't really make any sense considering flight data recorders are built to withstand impacts of up to 33 KM/sec^2, fires of up to 2000 degrees fairenheit, and can survive udamaged under pressures found up to 20,000 feet undersea. Flight data recorders have been recovered from sub-oceanic trenches and from direct impacts into mountains. Also, consider that in modern day aircraft the black box is placed in the very rear portion of the aircraft so that in any impact the entire front portion of the aircraft acts as a buffer "compression zone" to protect it. The box is double wrapped in solid steel or titanium, with high-temperature insulation. Finally, modern FDR's also contain radar and sonar beacons so they can be located from difficult locations (like inside rubble!)

What really happened, and what the government said happened are 2 very different things, I think

I don't think the black boxes could survive fires that melt steel. I could be wrong though. labbats?

Dunno

I didn't click the link so I don't know if they cover this, but the day after 9/11 I said that the government shot down that plane that crashed in the middle of nowhere.

Given the urgency of the situation the military could easily find any other missing flights and knowing what they knew wouldn't they obviously shoot down the last plane?

It's a stretch to believe that the last plane WASN'T shot down.

As for the black boxes, I found this so I stand corrected:

Workers find ``black boxes'' from two hijacked planes; collaborators may still be at large
JOHN SOLOMON, Associated Press Writer

Thursday, September 13, 2001
(09-13) 18:57 PDT WASHINGTON (AP) --

U.S. investigators pressed Thursday to identify terrorist collaborators who may still be in a position to strike more Americans, and agents located critical "black boxes" from two of Tuesday's hijacked planes.

Four U.S. officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, told The Associated Press that authorities are investigating the possibility that some terrorists involved with Tuesday's plots are still at large.

-----------------------------

Also, I thought I heard that Rummy fucked up once and said something to the effect of the plane being shot down.

However..there are about 200 different stories of how that one went down.

I always thought the last one was shot down, but this video was implying that missles hit the WTC and the Pentagon (in addition to the planes hitting hte WTC; it's saying that only a cruise missle hit the Pentagon). That I find pretty outrageous.

Menlaan

Missle to the pentagon I don't find "outrageous" but a little far fetched. The pictures I've seen don't have much airliner wreckage outside the building. Airliners don't disintegrate at sub 400 mph.

I also believe the other plane was shot down, and believe it was the correct decision if that's the case.

Watch the Penn and teller Bullshit episode on conspiracy theories.

Besides, if they really wanted to stage a plane hitting the Pentagon, do you really think it would be that hard?

Minrott wrote:I also believe the other plane was shot down, and believe it was the correct decision if that's the case.

I wholeheartedly agree with that.

Menlaan

Well, I'm not exactly privy to all the intelligence and evidence relating to the incident, so I'm not saying one way or the other. Just that the photo's I've seen there's nothing that looks like airliner wreckage outside the building. The wings should have sheared off and lain strewn around the outside don't you think?

Maybe not... Look at the trade center. Did the wings sheer off?

Also, I had seen another documentary on Pennsylvania flight that said the guy violently shook the plane from side to side when the "lets roll" crew were breaking in. They believe he lost control during the shaking and crashed. (He wasn't a very good pilot and that was a big fuckin plane.)

It didn't nosedive into the ground like a lot of people thought.

If they were breaking in and it was shot down it makes for a really sad story..even more sad than the original. There was a pilot on board and they could have saved the plane. =(

If they were breaking in and it was shot down it makes for a really sad story..even more sad than the original. There was a pilot on board and they could have saved the plane. =(

Very true.

Donnel wrote:http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pentagon.htm

Very interesting.

And also, the video argues one of two things: it was either a missle that hit the pentagon. Or it was a U.S. Jet, the engine (I don't remember the name) expressed in the video I posted, of the "Boeing 757" was identical to that of a U.S. Fighter jet, and wasn't anything related to infact, a Boeing 757. It was a 3 foot engine and they listed a bunch of parts only found on such a jet. The boeing 757 engines were 9 feet in diameter, 12 feet long and weighed 4 tons. They were made of titaniam alloy (sp?), and it is scientifically impossible for them to burn to the ground, which is what the Goverments arguement was when confronted with the question.

another good question is why fighter jets were not scrambled A LOT faster.

look at the payne stewart jet crash in october 1999...as soon as there was any indication of a problem Air Force fighter jets were scrambled and attempting to escort his aircraft within like...10 minutes.

Between the time the ground controllers lost control with the American airlines flights, and the time they crashed into the WTC, a lot more than 10 minutes passed. Between the time the first jet hit the WTC and the time the jet hit the pentagon, even more time (like over 30 mins?) had passed. Andrews air force base is less than a 10 minute flight from the pentagon for an F-16 flying at MINIMUM speed, and that's arguably the most protected airspace in the world...

something weird happened there...also note that modern Boeing aircraft have a system hardwired into their autopiloting system that allows ground controllers to force the aircraft into a midair holding pattern and lock out manual piloting in the case of hijacking, why wasn't this used?

Metranon wrote:another good question is why fighter jets were not scrambled A LOT faster.

look at the payne stewart jet crash in october 1999...as soon as there was any indication of a problem Air Force fighter jets were scrambled and attempting to escort his aircraft within like...10 minutes.

Saying "hey we have a celebrity golfer in trouble" requires less time to get the shit in sync than "holy fucking shit our country is under attack!"