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How the fuck can you give A-rod the MVP over Ortiz? HOW? Like the Yankees would have collapsed without him...give me a fucking break.

The MVP awards aren't what they should be like anymore. Nowadays they go by stats and such.

Being so, A-Rod is a gold glove third basemen, which David Ortiz isn't, and is a threat on the basepaths, stealing 20+ bases a year. If David Ortiz played the field, he would probably have won it.

So you take a team of MVPs and give one of them MVP over a guy who other than manny basically dragged his team to success?

there is no fucking way a designated hitter should EVER win MVP

end of story

My idea of an MVP is someone who, if removed from the team, completely removes any chance of said team ever achieving the same level of success that they had with him.

Now that may not be right but that's my idea of an MVP.

It seems like every other night Ortiz was singlehandedly winning games for Boston with the swing of a bat a la Barry Bonds.

A-Rod is a good player, but not a true MVP in the sense of the word in this case because the Yankees could have done without and still had a comparable level of success.

how do you figure?

even when you compare just batting statistics head to head, Rodriguez had a better year


add in the fact that he plays 3rd base every day AND the fact that he's actually a GOOD fielder, how could you possibly even consider choosing a DH?

You must not have read my post.

The award in my opinion isn't like a batting title or a "who did what better", it is more of a "who could a particular team honestly not live without and still experience similar success."

No, I read your post, and I'm disagreeing with you


if you're going to claim Ortiz was important to his team, what criteria would you offer?
His batting statistics


A-Rod offered superior batting statistics to his team as well as great defensive abilities

if you replace A-rod with a shitty hitter, but equally good defensive skills, you lose exactly as much as if you replace ortiz with a shitty DH

but if you replace A-Rod with a shitty hitter/shitty fielder you lose much more than losing Ortiz's bat


therefore, A-rod is more valuable than Ortiz

You are completely overlooking the Yankees roster in your argument, though.

yes, because the yankees roster is sooooo much superior to bostons?


keeping digging that ortiz fanboi hole

Actually, comparing stats it's easy to get misled.

While A-Rod has a better overall batting line (0.29 higher OPS), check out what happens in the clutch, when games are won or lost. (Something an MVP should have a say about, winning games for your team.)

Clutch Hitting is defined as the 7th inning or later, being either ahead by 1 run, losing by 1 or 2, or tied.

A-Rod: 74 AB's, .297 AVG, .422 OBP, .527 SLG, 4 HR, 12 RBI

Looks pretty decent yes? A-Rod probably won a few games on his own in the clutch with those kind of numbers.

Let's look at Ortiz: 76 AB's, .329 AVG, .435 OBP, .803 SLG, 10 HR, 31 RBI

Ortiz absolutely blows A-Rod out of the water. He's single-handedly won far more games for the Red Sox. Games that would have resulted in losses. This is what some argue as the true definition of MVP: the difference in runs/wins between the MVP candidate and his potential replacement.

As far as the DH goes, pitchers have won MVP awards. And they play every 5 days. The insinuation that a certain position isn't eligible for MVP doesn't belong in the discourse. Get rid of the position if it's not a real position; but as long as it is the rule, it's a position. Ortiz could have just as easily played 1B all year, but he doesn't have to.

Clutch is one of the most overused terms. Maybe if Ortiz hit better earlier in the game he wouldn't have to win it later. It's nice when a player doesn't fold under pressure but as long as his averages don't dip considerable, it's pretty meaningless.

numatu wrote:Actually, comparing stats it's easy to get misled.

While A-Rod has a better overall batting line (0.29 higher OPS), check out what happens in the clutch, when games are won or lost. (Something an MVP should have a say about, winning games for your team.)

Clutch Hitting is defined as the 7th inning or later, being either ahead by 1 run, losing by 1 or 2, or tied.

A-Rod: 74 AB's, .297 AVG, .422 OBP, .527 SLG, 4 HR, 12 RBI

Looks pretty decent yes? A-Rod probably won a few games on his own in the clutch with those kind of numbers.

Let's look at Ortiz: 76 AB's, .329 AVG, .435 OBP, .803 SLG, 10 HR, 31 RBI

Ortiz absolutely blows A-Rod out of the water.

Ok, now compare Ortiz's defensive stats compared to A-Rods

how many games has A-Rod won because he's made a clutch play at 3rd base
now compare that to Ortiz

oh wait, Ortiz doesn't contribute defensively at all


what was that you were saying again about ortiz being more valuable?

Tikker wrote:oh wait, Ortiz doesn't contribute defensively at all

And Barry Bonds did? Jason Giambi? Mo Vaughn?


Forget it. You want to turn this into a flame type shindig with your idiotic fanboi comment and I'm not taking the bait. I don't particularly care for Boston (re: 2004 World Series) but I know baseball.

You know my opinion, that's the end of it for me.

You're the one trying to make a gold glove the non issue


You're whining that Ortiz deserved it more than A-rod

The fact of the matter is that A-Rod excels offensively, and defensively, and Ortiz wasn't good enough to play in the field

I mean, sure he could have played 1st base, and you could have stuck mo vaughn at DH

but they didn't

likely because Vaughn is a better fielder than Ortiz

Did Travis Hafner of the Indians get any votes?

Haffner i think got 2 votes i believe, had he played the full season he would have been my pick.

In the end, Arod was the correct pick. Not taking anything away from Ortiz, but Arod had the better year, and would have been the MVP of any team. He brought more to the table than ortiz did.

Ortiz is a liability in the field, and the only reason he doesn't regularly look like a jack ass is because of the retarded DH rule. Fuck DH's, and especially fuck DH's for MVP.

arguing baseball with canadians is like arguing hockey with Zulu

Thon wrote:arguing baseball with canadians is like arguing hockey with Zulu

I'd like to see Ortiz put up similar type of numbers this upcoming season without Manny backing his ass up.

A-Rod was the correct choice.

Yes and A-Rod has no one backing him up, does he..

Name a Manny type player A-Rod had in Seattle and Texas that batted behind him. (When I mean Manny type player, I mean one of the best overall hitters ever to play the game. Manny is that good and that scary.)
A-Rod has always played the game at a consistent level. That's the reason why he has won 2 different MVP's, with 2 different teams, in 2 different positions.

Ortiz came to Boston as a bench player, he never had stats like he has now until he was batting in front of Manny. He wasn't supposed to be the DH. Ortiz caught lightning in bottle when he came to Boston.

Fact is, you could put A-Rod in Tampa Bay and he'll still put up numbers that will rival similar MVP type years he's already had, and he'll still field as well as he has been in 2 different positions. Can Ortiz do the same as DH in Tampa? I seriously doubt it. He'll have to prove he can still play at a high level when Manny isn't on the team.