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Something of interest I was discussing with one of my anti religious friends...
I'm curious of people's thoughts, since he did not believe in 'good and evil'.

I blogged about this subject before and how good/evil exists even without religion...need to find that. I think it's on the old computer. my pinky hurts too much to type it all out again.

It's actually a good question, and one I'm not sure of myself. I mean, much of what humans consider doing to other humans is simple survival strategy in the case of other creatures. For example, is it "evil" when a younger male lion commits patricide to take over his father's old pack? I would say no, but humans would certainly consider a human child killing it's parent 'evil', in the absence of some hefty mitigating circumstances (years of abuse, etc.) Indeed, even in various human societies there are widely differing notions of "evil". The Aztecs certainly didn't consider human sacrifice to be "evil", though we certainly do. Likewise, certain tribal people considered it the highest form of honor possible for them to ritually cook and eat their close relatives who had passed away, which is certainly different from the modern consideration of cannibalism.

So, at the very least, the notion of "good and evil" to mean anything requires intellectual capacity and with higher faculty than the mere animals. Now, I do not think such concepts would be strictly limited to humans, I mean, if some hypothetical alien race exists with similar levels of racial intellect that humans have achieved, then I would be willing to bet that they have some racial concepts of good and evil as well, even if those concepts are utterly different from our own.

So, one thing I think I CAN say for certain is that I don't believe that the judeo-christian notion of "Evil" is by any means universal, and is itself a moral construct that this particular society has, for the most part chosen to adhere to. However, it is simultaneously possible to believe that there are inimical forces out there, which would imply some absolute variety of "evil", if we wish to define it that way. Ultimately, I didn't place a vote in the poll, because i think the issue is far too complicated for a simple black/white yes/no answer.

-Arlos

good and evil are just rules set out by society to help govern behaviour


it's essentially what defines society/civilization

otherwise it's just survival

Well it depends, something some people might consider good might be evil to others, so yeah I guess I somewhat agree with the 2nd answer but not really. It's not black and white.

I consider anything done with greed (whether it's greed for money or greed for a sexual high or any other thing that could be categorized greed) as the motivation is an evil act.

Martrae wrote:I consider anything done with greed (whether it's greed for money or greed for a sexual high or any other thing that could be categorized greed) as the motivation is an evil act.

So then where do you draw the line between greed and ambition. I can tell you that I am pretty greedy but I don't hurt anyone to reach my goals.

It is not a dualist system. There is no Great Good and Great Evil. There is only a Great Good. Everything else is a lesser form of that Good. The further from the Good something goes the more evil it appears, but it will never reach an evil maxim.

Jay wrote:

Martrae wrote:I consider anything done with greed (whether it's greed for money or greed for a sexual high or any other thing that could be categorized greed) as the motivation is an evil act.

So then where do you draw the line between greed and ambition. I can tell you that I am pretty greedy but I don't hurt anyone to reach my goals.

Evil. You are greedy for power, recognition and an excess of money. None of that is needed to live a good life, it's just something you want so you can stroke your ego.

Martrae wrote:

Jay wrote:

Martrae wrote:I consider anything done with greed (whether it's greed for money or greed for a sexual high or any other thing that could be categorized greed) as the motivation is an evil act.

So then where do you draw the line between greed and ambition. I can tell you that I am pretty greedy but I don't hurt anyone to reach my goals.

Evil. You are greedy for power, recognition and an excess of money. None of that is needed to live a good life, it's just something you want so you can stroke your ego.

You could be considered evil for being judgemental~

I never claimed to not be evil. My greed is centered around my children and their lives, though.

Martrae wrote:

Jay wrote:

Martrae wrote:I consider anything done with greed (whether it's greed for money or greed for a sexual high or any other thing that could be categorized greed) as the motivation is an evil act.

So then where do you draw the line between greed and ambition. I can tell you that I am pretty greedy but I don't hurt anyone to reach my goals.

Evil. You are greedy for power, recognition and an excess of money. None of that is needed to live a good life, it's just something you want so you can stroke your ego.

You got me all wrong Mart Ray. Yes I want to run a company. Yes I want to have dollars. Really though, the only thing left that money can buy me is a nicer car. I've got the house I want and enough electronics to make me happy and thats really all money can do for me. Life to me is like a game and money is just the score. I'm not necessarily interested in shot calling, but more interested on seeing what I am capable of.

Martrae wrote:I never claimed to not be evil. My greed is centered around my children and their lives, though.

Buh-bye

That's different then. That's not greed. That's testing yourself.

Tikker wrote:good and evil are just rules set out by society to help govern behaviour


it's essentially what defines society/civilization

otherwise it's just survival

So, a man hunts down victims by seducing them and luring them into his home to slowly kill them, have sex with their dead bodies, boil their flesh, and eat them when he lives in a society where he would normally eat well, is in no danger of starving, and is capable of having a normal relationship to engage in sexual intercourse to further reproduce his species.

This is survival?

It's interesting only Martrae discusses Altruistic behavior, and most others mostly ignore ethos and morals.

I do find it interesting so many put it in the context of social evolution and natural selection. This is interesting since while there is commonality with animals and humans, obviously animals do not knowingly do acts of evil. Humans perform acts of unspeakable atrocity often, and unlike animals with malicious intent.

I personally believe there is evil and it is not due to natural causes.

Trielelvan wrote:

Tikker wrote:good and evil are just rules set out by society to help govern behaviour


it's essentially what defines society/civilization

otherwise it's just survival

So, a man hunts down victims by seducing them and luring them into his home to slowly kill them, have sex with their dead bodies, boil their flesh, and eat them when he lives in a society where he would normally eat well, is in no danger of starving, and is capable of having a normal relationship to engage in sexual intercourse to further reproduce his species.

This is survival?

No, i call it a good night.

You never boiled them first...

Trielelvan wrote:

Tikker wrote:good and evil are just rules set out by society to help govern behaviour


it's essentially what defines society/civilization

otherwise it's just survival

So, a man hunts down victims by seducing them and luring them into his home to slowly kill them, have sex with their dead bodies, boil their flesh, and eat them when he lives in a society where he would normally eat well, is in no danger of starving, and is capable of having a normal relationship to engage in sexual intercourse to further reproduce his species.

This is survival?

absolutely not, but I don't believe that that's some religious meaning of evil either - thats a psychological issue. the person obviously embodies the definition of pure evil, but theres something in him that makes him that way. many people of faith will put the blame directly on satan, but I think that thats just a way to finger the blame on someone or something and it's easier to not try to understand why or how someone would behave in such a horrid manner. I don't think that there is such thing as a good and evil that people are predisposed to - there are a number of factors to contribute to someone like this.

In general, that's my take on it as well.
I was just using an extreme to make my point: there are indeed acts which go beyond the definition of merely "survival" as Tikker was stating.

oh yeah, I totally agree with you there - something like that isn't survival.. but it isn't some magical mean fallen angel making people do his bidding.

Trielelvan wrote:In general, that's my take on it as well.
I was just using an extreme to make my point: there are indeed acts which go beyond the definition of merely "survival" as Tikker was stating.

you'll find critters of every type that do strange things outside the norm for their species

it's only when you have a set of rules governing your perception that you tag something as good/evil

true enough, but rules or no rules, but to state that the above is some form of "survival" is kind of reaching, don't you think?

it's the ultimate battle of temptation, what's right, what's wrong. good, bad..etc..and because nothing is so black and white, there is always the middle and all around the middle..

as humans we are aware of our conscience which tells us, what feels/looks/tastes good or bad (senses) and we know how they make us feel, (emotionally or physically) good or bad. or somewhere in the middle...niether/nor. both.

our level of awareness is another issue though. psycho killers... you can try to get into the mind of one or many but no matter how many you're able to get into the mind of, it doesn't prevent other people from being killers and it doesn't mean you will ever know that you were even in their minds. do they possess awareness of the feelings they had when they took a life? of course they do. that was the motivation.

insanity is something else and to me, it's when a person has no awareness of their conscience therefore do not make decisions on their true feelings. being "out of your mind" is a real thing and I guess it depends on how long you spend out of it and what your problems are as to what you're going to do while you're away. if a person is out of their mind and they don't know anyone, there isn't anyone there to keep them in check (homeless people) and they just stay checked out. if someone were lonely they might rape, or if someone were angry they might kill someone, someone who likes to make other people feel pain, they tortured some people...they give these people feelings that are either good or bad. what is good for one person doesn't necessarily mean good for another. that is why people are wronged in all ways, not just in the one way.

breakups are perfect examples..it is good for you to get away from the relationship and you are happier, but by doing that you cause pain to another person. you didn't mean to cause that person harm, you don't want to hurt them or feel bad, but you know you want to feel good.

because good and evil are opposites they are like a balance. I believe they are happening all of the time with almost every decision we make. we don't pay attention to a lot of them because we are fast thinkers and we're immune.

good and evil are the two big things because they are always there...in all forms. by saying "good" and "evil" you're implying opposites, one can't exist without the other or they would not be opposites. to question whether they exist is to say they would have to both exist, or neither.

I know good exists because the bad does and vice versa. my conscience tells me the difference, sometimes subtly and sometimes more excitedly. good loses flavor and so does bad, over time, because we either created a habit or became immune, those things are interesting things to think about. anyway that is how things get better, or more than just good...they multiply because while we liked chocolate before, now that we've had dark chocolate well, chocolate just isn't the same!

it's good that we tried a new chocolate and like it more but bad that the chocolate was kicked to the curb. but it's okay because something good will happen for chocolate eventually. it's a balance, good and evil..how often we consider consequences, our temptations and doubts, fears, all of those are ways we have to figure out what we're going to do. because both good and evil exist it supports that we have a choice in our behavior, which we are certain is to be true.