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CRAWFORD, Texas (CNN) -- What's next for the U.S. in Pakista

Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:05 am
by araby
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/12/29/henry.us.pakistan/index.html

CRAWFORD, Texas (CNN) -- What's next for the U.S. in Pakistan?


Unrest continues for a second day in Karachi, Pakistan, Saturday after the assassination of Benazir Bhutto.

That's the burning question President Bush must contemplate as he tries to get some down time for the New Year's holiday.

He has a slew of foreign policy challenges to confront in 2008 -- ranging from Iraq to Afghanistan, Iran and North Korea to name just a few.

Perhaps none is as pressing on January 1 as the unfolding crisis in the wake of the assassination of former Pakistani Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto.

The stakes for the U.S. are enormous, from the fear of Pakistan's nuclear weapons getting into the hands of extremists to questions about whether President Pervez Musharraf is focused hard enough on the war on terror and hunting down Osama bin Laden.

The Bush administration finds itself in a box after sticking so long with the policy of standing by Musharraf's side at all costs, and it has little choice but to stay with him now, otherwise the White House would run the risk of making Pakistan even less stable.

So do not expect Bush's policy to shift much at all, despite questions about whether Musharraf has misused billions of dollars in U.S. aid intended to fight terror. "He has been an absolute reliable partner in dealing with extremists and radicals," Bush told CNN's Wolf Blitzer in November.

But with Musharraf's grip on his government slipping, the Bush administration had recently turned to what you might call "Plan B," a potential power-sharing pact between Bhutto and Musharraf.

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In the wake of Bhutto's murder, the U.S. faces a bunch of bad options, so the White House is now searching for what might be dubbed "Plan C" -- finding someone to unite a nation teetering on the brink.

"That's the key dynamic to watch now and that will determine whether Musharraf and others in the country can move ahead," said Daniel Markey of the Council of Foreign Relations.

One option is former Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif. The U.S. had kept its distance from him because of his connections to Islamist parties, but in light of the current disarray the Bush administration is taking another look.

Another option would be for the U.S. to scrap the goal of democracy and let Musharraf focus on cracking down on extremists. But Bush is committed to his "Freedom Agenda," spreading democracy around the world, and U.S. officials say they still want free and fair elections in Pakistan as early as next month.

The most acceptable option may be that the winner of the elections form a partnership with Musharraf. But finding someone to fill the Bhutto half of the partnership will obviously be a Herculean task.

Those elections are scheduled to take place on January 8, coincidentally the very same day Bush is headed to Israel for a mission that was supposed to focus on Israeli-Palestinian peace. But the issue of broader stability of the Mideast has suddenly shot to the top of that trip's agenda.


So do not expect Bush's policy to shift much at all, despite questions about whether Musharraf has misused billions of dollars in U.S. aid intended to fight terror.


Or despite the fact that Bhutto questioned her own safety in spite of claims that he wanted to "work with her".
In the wake of Bhutto's murder, the U.S. faces a bunch of bad options, so the White House is now searching for what might be dubbed "Plan C" -- finding someone to unite a nation teetering on the brink.


why does this not surprise me?
One option is former Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif. The U.S. had kept its distance from him because of his connections to Islamist parties, but in light of the current disarray the Bush administration is taking another look.


really?? is this a joke?
Another option would be for the U.S. to scrap the goal of democracy and let Musharraf focus on cracking down on extremists. But Bush is committed to his "Freedom Agenda," spreading democracy around the world, and U.S. officials say they still want free and fair elections in Pakistan as early as next month.


Bhutto believed in democracy too. Bush really claims to have a "Freedom Agenda"? does anyone have a copy of this?

Re: CRAWFORD, Texas (CNN) -- What's next for the U.S. in Pakista

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 12:19 pm
by Ganzo
araby wrote:Another option would be for the U.S. to scrap the goal of democracy and let Musharraf focus on cracking down on extremists. But Bush is committed to his "Freedom Agenda," spreading democracy around the world, and U.S. officials say they still want free and fair elections in Pakistan as early as next month.


The whole "let's bring Democracy to every country in the world" thing that US been doing lately, reminds me of "World Revolution" that Communists were into.

Re: CRAWFORD, Texas (CNN) -- What's next for the U.S. in Pakista

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 12:36 pm
by Martrae
I agree.

And we're not a democracy!

Re: CRAWFORD, Texas (CNN) -- What's next for the U.S. in Pakista

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:52 am
by Evermore
Martrae wrote:I agree.

And we're not a democracy!



Furher Bush will be glad to hear this.

Re: CRAWFORD, Texas (CNN) -- What's next for the U.S. in Pakista

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:04 am
by Zanchief
Martrae wrote:I agree.

And we're not a democracy!


It's nice when people start to agree with you 10 years later.

Who knew I was a prophet.

Re: CRAWFORD, Texas (CNN) -- What's next for the U.S. in Pakista

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:48 am
by Evermore
:nuts:

Re: CRAWFORD, Texas (CNN) -- What's next for the U.S. in Pakista

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:06 am
by Kramer
wow. must be nice to see yourself so wonderfully.....



and the whole "bring world democracy" has been happening since the end of WWII. it's just that it used to be titled "bring down all of the non-democratic powers"

Re: CRAWFORD, Texas (CNN) -- What's next for the U.S. in Pakista

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:20 am
by Zanchief
Kramer wrote:wow. must be nice to see yourself so wonderfully

We've been having the same arguments for the last what 6 years since the war started, and it seems some of these wackos are finally realizing the very same argument I've been making since day one seems to be right.

Where are all the cries about Anti-American pro terrorism rhetoric now?

I'll just take your apology in the form of indignation.

Re: CRAWFORD, Texas (CNN) -- What's next for the U.S. in Pakista

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:30 am
by Evermore
what's next for you?


The Gospel according Zanchief?

Re: CRAWFORD, Texas (CNN) -- What's next for the U.S. in Pakista

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:36 am
by Zanchief
Don't give me any ideas.

Re: CRAWFORD, Texas (CNN) -- What's next for the U.S. in Pakista

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:46 am
by Gypsiyee
in Zan's defense.. he has always been consistent with his views on it

clearly overzealous with his cockiness, but when you're right you're right I reckon

Re: CRAWFORD, Texas (CNN) -- What's next for the U.S. in Pakista

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:31 am
by Martrae
Zanchief wrote:
Kramer wrote:wow. must be nice to see yourself so wonderfully

We've been having the same arguments for the last what 6 years since the war started, and it seems some of these wackos are finally realizing the very same argument I've been making since day one seems to be right.

Where are all the cries about Anti-American pro terrorism rhetoric now?

I'll just take your apology in the form of indignation.



You've been arguing that we're not a democracy?

Re: CRAWFORD, Texas (CNN) -- What's next for the U.S. in Pakista

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:37 am
by Harrison
A constitutional republic does fall under the definition of democracy.

It's just more specifically outlined than the broader term of democracy.

Re: CRAWFORD, Texas (CNN) -- What's next for the U.S. in Pakista

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:05 am
by Zanchief
Martrae wrote:You've been arguing that we're not a democracy?


No, I've been arguing that forcing a democracy on someone is not only ineffective but completely counter productive. I've been called every name in the book because of it. I've been accused of being a communist and a terrorist and low and behold after half a decade passes and a little objectivity sets in all you talking heads are all seeing that maybe the very thing I've been saying since day way makes sense.

You just wasted six years of reasoning to get to where I was at to begin with.

Next time just ask me how you should think and we could save all of you a considerable amount of time and humiliation.

Re: CRAWFORD, Texas (CNN) -- What's next for the U.S. in Pakista

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:10 am
by Evermore
seems to me you have been arguing for the government to hold you by the dick and tell you want you can and cannot do. i do believe thats where your "communist" comes from. If you did make this arguement it was done so poorly or in such a convoluted manner I would bet that most dont remember it.

Re: CRAWFORD, Texas (CNN) -- What's next for the U.S. in Pakista

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:27 am
by Zanchief
Evermore wrote:seems to me you have been arguing for the government to hold you by the dick and tell you want you can and cannot do. i do believe thats where your "communist" comes from. If you did make this arguement it was done so poorly or in such a convoluted manner I would bet that most dont remember it.


Apology accepted.

Also, I think we might be getting to the root of your unhealthy hatred of the government. Could it all be some deeply rooted homosexual desire? Are you just looking for someone "hold your dick" Evermore?

Re: CRAWFORD, Texas (CNN) -- What's next for the U.S. in Pakista

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:28 am
by Martrae
Where have I or anyone else on this board ever advocated forcing democracy on anyone? Obviously, that won't work. The people there have to want it.

Re: CRAWFORD, Texas (CNN) -- What's next for the U.S. in Pakista

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:30 am
by Lyion
Zanchief wrote:No, I've been arguing that forcing a democracy on someone is not only ineffective but completely counter productive. I've been called every name in the book because of it. I've been accused of being a communist and a terrorist and low and behold after half a decade passes and a little objectivity sets in all you talking heads are all seeing that maybe the very thing I've been saying since day way makes sense.

You just wasted six years of reasoning to get to where I was at to begin with.


You think people who disagree with you are insulting you, and get offended. Really, that's not the case and outside of Harrison posting in his format, is pretty inaccurate. This board is what it is. It's not exactly a den of open discourse and clean discussions. You have no problems saying your mind and being antagonistic, as most of us can be.

We didn't 'force' democracy on Iraq. We removed Hussein, since he was deemed a threat, and allowed a UN party to work with the leaders in Iraq who created and voted on their own government. It wasn't written or pushed by us. In fact, the Iraqi government is autonomous and can ask us to leave anytime.

I'd also argue Japan, Germany, South Korea, parts of Europe, and other places have worked out nicely. I'm personally for fighting tyranny within means and feel it's wise to try and support freedom in the world. If you had been alive 60 years ago, would you have opposed the Marshall plan as being expensive and counter productive, since it was?

It would've been far easier for us if we had setup Chalabi or another strongman dictator in Iraq with Pro US ties a la Musharraf, tucked tail and ran, and that would've fixed a bad situation simply and cheaply. That indeed might still happen. However, if the Iraq transformation completes itself into a democracy and the other seeds of freedom planted in the Middle East grow it has the potential to change a volatile region into a somewhat stable one.

The good news is Iraq is stabilizing and improving, although I'd wager the CBC won't tell you the surge Petraeus implemented has done remarkable things. Hopefully by the end of this year Iraq will be self sustaining itself from a security point of view and we'll be able to remove the vast majority of our troops. Afghanistan is in far worse state, since the bulk of NATO who offered to help has done little to support us, outside of the UK and Canada.

Re: CRAWFORD, Texas (CNN) -- What's next for the U.S. in Pakista

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:32 am
by Zanchief
Martrae wrote:Where have I or anyone else on this board ever advocated forcing democracy on anyone? Obviously, that won't work. The people there have to want it.


That's what it's all been about. You invaded a country to force them to become a democracy. The complete lunacy of this has never dawned on any of you because you've been so wrapped up in your false notion of patriotism.

Re: CRAWFORD, Texas (CNN) -- What's next for the U.S. in Pakista

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:35 am
by Zanchief
Lyion wrote:You think people who disagree with you are insulting you, and get offended. Really, that's not the case and outside of Harrison posting in his format, is pretty inaccurate. This board is what it is. It's not exactly a den of open discourse and clean discussions. You have no problems saying your mind and being antagonistic, as most of us can be.


I guess nice Lyion woke up today. Let me know when it's the nasty Lyion. At least he's fun to argue with.

I know the difference between a disagreement and an insult.

Do you know the difference between being right, and being wrong?

Re: CRAWFORD, Texas (CNN) -- What's next for the U.S. in Pakista

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:40 am
by Lyion
I guess this would be a disagreement. :afro:

Zanchief wrote:
Harrison wrote:To stop placing others before myself. Fuck everyone else. People come and go; I'm here for rest of my life.


Isn't that like Hitler saying, "I think I'm going to hate more Jews this year?"

You're a selfish twat.

Re: CRAWFORD, Texas (CNN) -- What's next for the U.S. in Pakista

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:42 am
by Harrison
Zanchief wrote:
Martrae wrote:Where have I or anyone else on this board ever advocated forcing democracy on anyone? Obviously, that won't work. The people there have to want it.


That's what it's all been about. You invaded a country to force them to become a democracy. The complete lunacy of this has never dawned on any of you because you've been so wrapped up in your false notion of patriotism.


And here I thought we invaded a country to steal their natural resources :rolleyes:

Even if we did, I'd have no problem with that. It's what people have been doing for thousands of years. When did human nature suddenly not apply?

If someone has something you need, you get it. Trade, diplomacy, force; the method is irrelevant in the end.

Re: CRAWFORD, Texas (CNN) -- What's next for the U.S. in Pakista

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:44 am
by Zanchief
Lyion wrote:I guess this would be a disagreement. :afro:

Zanchief wrote:
Harrison wrote:To stop placing others before myself. Fuck everyone else. People come and go; I'm here for rest of my life.


Isn't that like Hitler saying, "I think I'm going to hate more Jews this year?"

You're a selfish twat.


That would be an insult. The twat part is a bit of a giveaway.

Re: CRAWFORD, Texas (CNN) -- What's next for the U.S. in Pakista

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:47 am
by Zanchief
Harrison wrote:And here I thought we invaded a country to steal their natural resources :rolleyes:


Well I never once said that, sorry chief.

But if you truly think that resources are worth the lives of millions of foreign soldiers and thousands of American ones, I think you might just be sticking pretty closely to that new years resolution.

Re: CRAWFORD, Texas (CNN) -- What's next for the U.S. in Pakista

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:53 am
by Tikker
Zanchief wrote:
Harrison wrote:And here I thought we invaded a country to steal their natural resources :rolleyes:


Well I never once said that, sorry chief.




the idea of stealing resources was my assertion, not zanchief's~



ps, we're both right