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I am officially convinced that the GOP is intentionally trying to throw the race.

I just wish I knew the *why.*

Put on your thinking caps... what benefits could a political party gain by intentionally losing an election / seat in either the senate, the house or even the presidency?

I thought that McCain did well for the first about 20 minutes. Then he brought up Ayers and it was downhill from there. That allowed Obama to get his feet under him and I think after that point McCain became the quintessential angry old man. His sense of disdain was clear and it came across strongly. He spent more time attacking Obama's points than he did letting us know wtf he is going to do for us.

Now look, i'm not with the big spending, but I do think that some spending is needed. If there was a candidate that was fiscally conservative and socially liberal, I would be all over it, but there isn't. Therefore I have to go with the person that most closely echoes my concerns and that's Obama.

I think that McCain's little pro-abortion quips will hurt him IMMENSELY with women and independents. Look, no one is pro-abortion, that entire line is bullshit. I do not want people to get an abortion, I do want people to make that choice for themselves and what's best for their families. If people do choose to do it, I have a firm believe that MOST times it's not because they are using it as birth control. Two people very close to me have had to go through the entire process and it was devastating. It pisses me off to hear it talked about as if it's some casual decision that they woke up pregnant and decided that they would head down to the clinic and get it taken care of. I'm betting that a lot of people felt the exact same way. During that portion his lines among the women were at rock bottom. Also it's crap to suggest that he would support a Supreme Court Justice that was pro-choice. He danced around it with all of that "No litmus test, best candidate" but then he stuck in that little line that anyone who was the best candid would not be for Roe V. Wade.

Overall I think that Obama won it. McCain needed to do more than he did, he took way too much of his time addressing divisive issues rather than talking about his good points. That makes me think that he doesn't have any good points to talk about.

Diekan wrote:Put on your thinking caps... what benefits could a political party gain by intentionally losing an election / seat in either the senate, the house or even the presidency?

Better draft picks next season.

I think McCain really put his foot in it when he insulted health of the mother as a reason for an abortion being necessary. I think there are groups that are going to take that, run with it, and flay him alive with it.

-Arlos

Diekan wrote:I am officially convinced that the GOP is intentionally trying to through the race.

I just wish I knew the *why.*

Put on your thinking caps... what benefits could a political party gain by intentionally losing an election / seat in either the senate, the house or even the presidency?

Uh... what? McCain finally spoke with fire in his belly, put ol Barry in his place, and won that debate hands down. Even libs have to admit that. I listened to the whole debate on CNNradio, and then listened to people being interviewed. Tons of former Hildebeast supporters who were interviewed are even now leaning towards McCain.

McCain won on almost all talking points, ie: "Joe the plumber," health care, becoming independent of foreign oil, housing, the financial crisis, etc. etc. etc.

Now putting all that aside... when McCain does get elected, I have no doubt that he's going to let me down in some way, as a conservative. But the bigger point to remember, is that ALL presidents are flawed to some degree (even Reagan was somewhat flawed, as awesome as he was), and ol Barry would be a consistent letdown if he were to get a elected. So on that point, and so many others, McCain is definitely without question, the lesser of two evils.

I can't take him seriously. I just think he's too predictable to be a real person anymore.

FUCKING STOP CALLING HIM BARRY HIS NAME IS BARACK

jesus lord i haaate it when people do that!!

Sorry but you must be reading polls on Fox News. CNN has the polls that are split b/w Dems, Repubs and Independents and every single poll has Obama winning in every single category. Likability, Leadership, Best for Taxes, Best for the Economy. I could go on but you get the picture. The only people that are calling this for McCain are Fox News devotees.

PS, denigrating his name and trying to make people think that this man is less than an American is part of the problem among Republicans. Grow up, you all stress that you're the more experienced party but you resort to childish antics. Seriously calling a grown man out of his name in an ignorant attempt at humor. That shows desperation.

Washing Wire Polls:

Who won Wednesday's Debate?
McCain: 1085 votes (19.4%)
Obama: 4358 votes (77.8%)
No one: 156 votes (2.8%)
Total Votes : 5599

Yikes.

Yep, same here Diekan.

You know, I first had suspicions about this when McCain won the Rep nomination, and it's only gotten worse from there.
What set off my alarms originally was the fact that McCain is a POW. Mind you, I come from a military family - I have the deepest, utmost respect for our soldiers.
That said, POWs have no place in a position of this magnitude. McCain was broken in Hanoi, and though I really, truly do respect the man for what he did and who he was, I'm also saying flat out that he is emotionally, mentally, and psychologically unstable, and unfit for this position. I dare say, anyone who has personally met and spoken with a POW would tend to agree. The wounds from what they are put through are so deep, and they never truly ever heal.

When the Reps picked him, I thought they were absolutely out of their minds. Then there was the whole Palin equation.
Over time, I have come to the conclusion that one of two things is going on here:
A) Because McCain lost the chance in 2000, he was told to do as he was told and they'd make sure he'd cinch the position this time around - a pity campaign. Giving a true US hero one last round of hurrah while also getting what they want (hence his flip-flopping - I don't believe for a moment that he's expressing his own ideals, naturally.)

or

B) Something more sinister is going on. The conspiracy theorist in me says the Dems and Reps are really not two distinct entities, they are controlled by the same forces, and the US at large is being played into this farce like a thousand stringed marionette. There is a bigger setup here, though what I am not totally sure. That scares me. A lot.

Ok, my head hurts now.
I am hoping and praying that I am wrong on every level and that whoever takes office will actually do some good and turn things around in this country. All of our lives are depending on it.

... and Narrock, open your eyes man.

Haylo wrote:denigrating his name and trying to make people think that this man is less than an American is part of the problem among Republicans. Grow up, you all stress that you're the more experienced party but you resort to childish antics. Seriously calling a grown man out of his name in an ignorant attempt at humor. That shows desperation.

THANK YOU for articulating what i was trying to say with my cussing outburst hehe

this drives. me. CRAZY.

Again, early polls show respondents feel Obama was the winner, at a 58% rate, with only 31% saying McCain won.

Personally, I think Buchanan's analogy of the end of a boxing match was quite apt. Obama knows he's way ahead in the polls right now, and he merely needed to continue on like he has been, and not do anything stupid, and not give up the knock-out. He knows that every single poll done recently shows that people are getting more and more upset at the angry tone in the campaign, and that they're blaming McCain for it more than Obama.

What McCain's performance did is appeal to his existing base. The problem is, that's not who he had to appeal to. He's already got those people, but they're a significant minority right now. Who he needed to reach were the uncommitted voters, and even needed to sway those already leaning towards Obama. By all the poll results I've seen since the end of the debate, the OPPOSITE has happened.

So, regardless of what the bases of each candidate thinks about who won, in the minds of the ones who really mattered in this debate, it seems to have gone to Obama, and McCain has almost no time left to turn it around, and I very much doubt he'll be able to do so.

-Arlos

Of independent voters polled, the question was asked "Who spent more time attacking their opponent" 80% for McCain V. 7% for Obama. That's a telling poll. If you are attacking than you aren't addressing. I'm sure that Republicans are all fired up and happy with his performance, the problem is that he already has those people committed to him. I would bet that true independents were completely turned off by his antics, and the polls back that up.

McCain FAILED because he needed to appeal to people who don't think Palin is the greatest thing since sliced bread, who give a shit about Ayers, who don't think calling Barack Obama Barry is the height of hilarity. He did not do what he needed to do, how anyone can call that a win is beyond me.

Look, this is a man who is barely ahead or even a couple of points behind in states like NC and WV. Now whether or not those states go to Obama win the actual election happens is irrevelant. The Republicans are having to spend time shoring up states that they should be so far ahead in it should be a gimme. That speaks to an inability to reassure people that you are on the right track. Everyone knows that Dems and Repubs do not decide this, it's people who can't be categorized that are the winning factor. If McCain can't find some tactic to draw those people in, he's reduced to hoping that people decide not to vote for Obama for extraneous reasons. I don't know about you but to me that's a pretty sad position to be reduced to.

leah wrote:FUCKING STOP CALLING HIM BARRY HIS NAME IS BARACK

jesus lord i haaate it when people do that!!

And yet people calling Bush Shrub is ok. Guess it's different when it's a guy you like, eh?

Trielelvan wrote:B) Something more sinister is going on. The conspiracy theorist in me says the Dems and Reps are really not two distinct entities, they are controlled by the same forces, and the US at large is being played into this farce like a thousand stringed marionette. There is a bigger setup here, though what I am not totally sure. That scares me. A lot.

tinfoil hat time... there are folks out there that believe this election won't even happen. the idea is that some great crisis will cause the bottom to drop out, leading to a declaration of martial law. proponents point to the current economic crisis as directly related-- banks fail, government rushes in with a huge bailout package, ends up buying stock in banks-- as proof. the Amero becomes the official currency of north america, blurring the lines and causing more and more centralization. the stock markets register a 9.4 on the Richter scale, heaving up and down chaotically and then BAM! stormtroopers rush in and seize all infrastructure nodes, President Chimp becomes King Chimp, and the Holy American Empire delivers nuclear suckerpunches to every oil-rich country out there, thus explaining why the GOP never even bothered to try putting together a good campaign. but that's all just a load of crazy-talk.


...right?

Trielelvan wrote:... and Narrock, open your eyes man.

seriously? you expected ANY different from that clown?

brinstar wrote:tinfoil hat time... there are folks out there that believe this election won't even happen. the idea is that some great crisis will cause the bottom to drop out, leading to a declaration of martial law. proponents point to the current economic crisis as directly related-- banks fail, government rushes in with a huge bailout package, ends up buying stock in banks-- as proof. the Amero becomes the official currency of north america, blurring the lines and causing more and more centralization. the stock markets register a 9.4 on the Richter scale, heaving up and down chaotically and then BAM! stormtroopers rush in and seize all infrastructure nodes, President Chimp becomes King Chimp, and the Holy American Empire delivers nuclear suckerpunches to every oil-rich country out there, thus explaining why the GOP never even bothered to try putting together a good campaign. but that's all just a load of crazy-talk.


...right?

"and then BAM! stormtroopers rush in and seize all infrastructure nodes"
I lol'd

/dons tinfoil hat

I don't think it will come to quite that, though, admittedly, it's a bit unnerving in just how not far off we are from that whole scenario.

I am of the belief that there are no Dems or Reps. I think it is just a good way for the powers that be to keep the public fighting amongst themselves, and away from the core of the real problems. It's a very good distraction, and keeps people fighting for all the wrong reasons.
We should not be choosing sides.
We should be taking them ALL down and reforming the system.
The American people have the power to do this, but we have to do it as one - United we stand, divided we fall.
Problem is, between greed, apathy, and stupidity, we, as a whole, are fucked 10 ways from sideways with little hope of reprieve.

/tinfoil hat off

brinstar wrote:seriously? you expected ANY different from that clown?

Expect? No. Hope? Yes.
There are none so unfortunate than those whose eyes are closed and have forgotten how to open them.

Martrae wrote:

leah wrote:FUCKING STOP CALLING HIM BARRY HIS NAME IS BARACK

jesus lord i haaate it when people do that!!

And yet people calling Bush Shrub is ok. Guess it's different when it's a guy you like, eh?

That's the first time I've ever heard that nickname for Bush

PS it's nice and cozy under my rock

did it ever occur to you, diek, that maybe, just maybe, they're not throwing the election and the GOP really has gotten this stupid? look at the last 8 years - i think you're giving the GOP way too much credit to assume they're seriously blowing it on purpose.

The polls from last night:

FOX News Question of the Day (Updated)
Who won the final presidential debate?
John McCain 32%
Barack Obama 68%
Total Voters: 58140

CNN National Poll (Final)
John McCain 31%
Barack Obama 58%
Draw 11%
Total Pollers: 620

CNN Quick Vote (Updated)
Who fared better in Wednesday's presidential debate?
Sen. John McCain 16% 25957
Sen. Barack Obama 81% 135336
No clear winner 3% 5607
Total Votes: 166900

CBS Poll for Uncommitted Voters (Final)
Who won the Presidential debate?
John McCain 22%
Barack Obama 53%
Draw 25%
Total Pollers: 638

MSNBC
Who won the debate?
John McCain, 12.9% (17,492 votes)
Barack Obama, 84.3% (114,493 votes)
Tie, 1.5% (2,032 votes)
Not sure, 1.4% (1,834 votes)
Total: 135,851 votes

AOL News
Who do you think won the debate?
Barack Obama 47% 73,209
John McCain 47% 73,054
Neither 6% 8,363
Total Votes: 154,626

Narrock wrote:

Diekan wrote:I am officially convinced that the GOP is intentionally trying to through the race.

I just wish I knew the *why.*

Put on your thinking caps... what benefits could a political party gain by intentionally losing an election / seat in either the senate, the house or even the presidency?

Uh... what? McCain finally spoke with fire in his belly, put ol Barry in his place, and won that debate hands down. Even libs have to admit that. I listened to the whole debate on CNNradio, and then listened to people being interviewed. Tons of former Hildebeast supporters who were interviewed are even now leaning towards McCain.

McCain won on almost all talking points, ie: "Joe the plumber," health care, becoming independent of foreign oil, housing, the financial crisis, etc. etc. etc.

Now putting all that aside... when McCain does get elected, I have no doubt that he's going to let me down in some way, as a conservative. But the bigger point to remember, is that ALL presidents are flawed to some degree (even Reagan was somewhat flawed, as awesome as he was), and ol Barry would be a consistent letdown if he were to get a elected. So on that point, and so many others, McCain is definitely without question, the lesser of two evils.

Mindia what are you going todo when McCain isnt elected? Cause after that debacle last night there is NO WAY he is.

Trielelvan wrote:
B) Something more sinister is going on. The conspiracy theorist in me says the Dems and Reps are really not two distinct entities, they are controlled by the same forces, and the US at large is being played into this farce like a thousand stringed marionette. There is a bigger setup here, though what I am not totally sure. That scares me. A lot.

Good! Goooood!

Your hate has made you powerful!

the US is secretly being run out of canada by Air America.

Both parties have lost their way. In their desire for votes the GOP has become more and more like the old democratic party while the democratic party has become more and more socialist. Both parties try to 'buy' votes by offering a huge variety of programs and benefits. Neither want to cut back spending, minimize government involvement into private lives, or take less from taxpayers.

Don't let them fool you. Neither side REALLY cares about the poor or anyone else for that matter. It's all about power and they keep that power by keeping the populace dependent upon them.

vonkaar wrote:Good! Goooood!

Your hate has made you powerful!

rofl EXACTLY!!!!!!!!

Martrae wrote:

leah wrote:FUCKING STOP CALLING HIM BARRY HIS NAME IS BARACK

jesus lord i haaate it when people do that!!

And yet people calling Bush Shrub is ok. Guess it's different when it's a guy you like, eh?

tbqh i haven't ever heard that and no, it's not really ok. i think that's aggravating, too!

Martrae wrote:Both parties have lost their way. In their desire for votes the GOP has become more and more like the old democratic party while the democratic party has become more and more socialist. Both parties try to 'buy' votes by offering a huge variety of programs and benefits. Neither want to cut back spending, minimize government involvement into private lives, or take less from taxpayers.

Don't let them fool you. Neither side REALLY cares about the poor or anyone else for that matter. It's all about power and they keep that power by keeping the populace dependent upon them.

I disagree. I think both parties care for people, and believe their way is right.

They also are both lying and manipulative political machines. They are after the power.

The GOPs bigger problem is trying to sell themselves as the party of smaller government and less spending when they've spent the last 10 years doing the opposite. The Dems have been mostly out of power for 8 years. Closer to 16 if you count the fact they haven't controlled Congress and the Presidency since 1994.

It's interesting that even with the financial crisis, the Dems are still plowing through with their plans for big government next year. Obama wouldn't list one plan he'd cut. Pelosi has even stated she'll bring congress back to push through a 300 billion stimulus plan immediately. Given the current financial market crisis based on the subprime derivitives and Fannie/Freddie failures, it's amazing to hear, and if our electorate weren't unaware and ill informed, it should frighten them.

The next two years could be more interesting if the Dems get a 60 seat majority in the Senate.