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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHbYJfwFgOU (two and a half minute video - 'big think' with Bill Nye)

Whatever else I might think of Bill Nye, I think he's wrong regarding his claim that the worldview of creationism won't exist several centuries from now.

The one thing we know with absolute certainty, because history bears it out, is that religion itself evolves.

Religion is not, nor was it ever, intellectually bulletproof. It didn't emerge full-formed from the head of a deity in perfect form and grace. It's changed over time. It's adapted itself to suit its climate, and even flourish under some conditions.

Religion (Christianity, for example) has been evolving for 2000 years. It evolved through the middle ages, and it survived losses of power, wars, sectarian schisms, the Reformation, the plague. It even survived the Enlightenment.

Short of brainwashing or programming to eradicate it, religion is not going anywhere anytime soon. The creationist theories of one-hundred or a thousand years from now may not look like the creationist theories of today, but it'll be around in some form or other. This will be true regardless of whether or not Creationism is true.

Bill Nye thinks better of people then I do. I think you're right, Menelvir. Ignorance isn't going anywhere, and creationism will be right behind it.

I've done my part by not passing the disease on to my kid.

Up until recently, I've been a Christian.

I still hide it from my kids as to not ostracize them amongst their peers. It has been a difficult discussion at times when they ask questions about friends who have religious ceremonies, etc. Or when they call out the flaws they see in religion vs evolution. My wife struggles with this as she respects my position but is not able to turn off what she feels is "right". I won't tell my family as it would provide absolutely no benefit and will only create tons of friction.

I never pushed religion. I want my kids to get exposure as to not neglect their freedom of choice. My kids are 14 and 11. I would feel awkward at best to flip-flop on an issue like this, now. It would also generate the shit-ton mess amongst the families.

They will chose their path when they hit that fork.

The wicked that religion has brought to me

I never shielded my son from it I just never encouraged it. It wasn't anything we really talked about.

Both our families come from religious backgrounds so, for example, when we eat with my family, my Dad (or I) say grace. When we do activities at my in-laws, they do that Catholic chest cross thing or also say grace. Oddly enough, I get called out on saying grace more often than not, so it creates a strange environment to say the least.

BTW, I wasn't downing on you for the direction you've set. I was just saying that I was, and now I'm not, so, unlike you, I would have to "un-do" some things, but the intellect of my kids would result in troubles, for them, for me, the wife, etc. It seems to me, you've been on one path all along, so there would be no "issue" per-say.

It does come up for me, a couple of times a month, more frequent if we spend time with the families.

LOL, I suppose it's sort of like being gay /laugh

TONS of religious people in my family. My mom is super Christian (the good kind that actually try to live like Jesus did) so my son still goes to church with her when he's in town but he knows it's all BS.

"Knows it's all BS"

So your son has died and seen if there is an afterlife, God, Gods, or nothing?

Man, he sounds pretty badass. I wish I had all those answers that are unanswerable at such a young age. /sarcasm off

Harrison your a lot smarter than to believe in space wizards ....

Christianity is bullshit. One doesn't need to discount every other possibility to be sure of that.

i'm with nye - by the 2200s there will be such an awesomely enormous volume of clearly demonstrable evidence that the creationism "earth was blinked into existence 4900 years ago" idiots will no more be able to deny evolution than they will be able to deny that water is wet. see also: geocentrism vs copernicanism.

but the truly idiotic thing about the whole debate is that there exists a terribly easy way to reconcile evolution with creation: god caused evolution. if you are able to take it on faith alone that god created the universe, the cosmos, the galaxy, the sun, the planets, and the earth, its continents, seas, species, all the way down each individual organism's amazingly intricate physiology - let alone the miracle that is human consciousness - why is it so great a leap to imagine that He set into motion a sublimely nuanced system which would eventually result in our existence and consciousness? both stories are equally mind-blowing, yet one is supported by mountains upon mountains of evidence, and the other is supported by a dusty old book that has been translated and retranslated and hacked and chopped and edited and is STILL mostly metaphor.

imo only one thing REALLY stands between the creationists and the evolutionists: pride.

I think the bible is what stands between most Christians and accepting that God created evolution. Maybe by 2200 the bible will be rewritten once again to include that little detail.

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Spazz - Harri isn't religious. His retort has to do with the fact that Toss said "He knows it's all BS."

We are humans, not gods. We know exactly nothing, and to actually think that any of us actually knows the answers to life, the universe, and everything is naive at best, and arrogant at worst.

(edit) Brin: That's what I've been saying for eternity. You seriously made me smile and nod right now.

Trielelvan wrote:Spazz - Harri isn't religious. His retort has to do with the fact that Toss said "He knows it's all BS."

We are humans, not gods. We know exactly nothing, and to actually think that any of us actually knows the answers to life, the universe, and everything is naive at best, and arrogant at worst.

(edit) Brin: That's what I've been saying for eternity. You seriously made me smile and nod right now.

Far less arrogant than convincing crowds of people that god speaks through you and they should give you money.

Spazz wrote:Harrison your a lot smarter than to believe in space wizards ....

I'm also a lot smarter than to believe I have the answer.

No one does. That's the whole point lol

Your looking at this shit wrong harrison. Im pretty sure I know what happens when you die but im really really sure of what doesnt.

I personally believe nothing happens when you die. Nothing at all. Your electrical signals stop firing in your brain and that's it. Forever.

That doesn't mean I'm right. You really have to be some epic level of douchebag to think that because some book has things wrong that everything involving any idea in said book is also wrong by default. That's just as dumb as blindly following any religion.

One needs to discern philosophy and science.

I think evolution is good science. I respect it.

I also have faith in Catholicism because it makes me a better person and my worldview is improved through it. I believe in the golden rule and the power of good, the main tenets of Christianity. When I was an agnostic I really did not, and just accepted there was nothing out there. I think its a shame a lot of people put philosophy and science in the same small box filled with anger, most likely due to the many idiots associated with religion.

Harrison wrote:"Knows it's all BS"

So your son has died and seen if there is an afterlife, God, Gods, or nothing?

Man, he sounds pretty badass. I wish I had all those answers that are unanswerable at such a young age. /sarcasm off

Follow your logic to its conclusion and you will realize you can't know anything about the world and nothing is provable or understood. Fortunately that is not the way of things. I think Occam's razor applies pretty succinctly here.

If belief in every fable or religion ever conceived by man because there is no way to disprove magic is sound logic to you, fair enough, and good luck with that. I don't personally want to live in a world where people think Xenu might have existed because they can't definitively prove otherwise.

Speaking as an atheist, I believe there's far too much evidence alluding to what nonsense the bible and "God" are and that if Jesus were alive today and spoke the same words he'd be institutionalized for hearing voices.

However...when I have children, I do not plan on making any such statements to that effect. When they ask, I'll tell them what I believe. I'll tell them what I know about the variety of religions out there. I'll tell them that there are people from all faiths and that no one belief system is better than the other, that what matters is how that belief system is applied and how you use it to live your life as the best person that you can be both for yourself and others.

The last thing I want to be in this world is the type of person who forces beliefs on my children and teaches them to judge others. We have too large a majority of the population who do that already, and just as I hate when Christians condescend to me because I am an atheist, I have no such desire to be the type of atheist who condescends to others for not believing as I do. I'm all for civil discourse and having reasoned discussions as to why I believe as I do, but I fully believe that what's important is that people do not use their beliefs as an excuse to be dicks, but rather represent their beliefs in as positive a fashion as they can. Many religious individuals try to live their life in hopes of building a euphoric bliss of an afterlife, but as someone who does not believe in the afterlife, I believe in the importance of living this life as fully as I can and doing what I can for what is tangible: this earth, the people that surround me, etc.

That said, I don't disagree with Nye's assessment. I think that the ratio of non-believers to believers is constantly increasing. Darwin's discoveries were not terribly long ago in the grand scheme of things after all. I'm not sure that it's going to be that soon, but I do believe that eventually people will view religion in history as we view people once believing the earth was flat.

Harrison wrote:I personally believe nothing happens when you die. Nothing at all. Your electrical signals stop firing in your brain and that's it. Forever.

this is why i fear death, because i fear that this might be true. ceasing to exist is terrifying to me. if i think about it too long, i start to actually freak out.

...i'm starting to think i might have some anxiety issues. :\

I believe in the golden rule and the power of good but not because I think I'll go to hell if I don't.

Well my main point in disagreeing with Nye was that I think he's grossly underestimated the staying power of religious belief.

Christianity has survived 2,000 years and there's no indication I see that this will change, even in the face of something like a technological singularity (if you're a Kurzweil devotee).

Even if Christianity somehow went extinct, I think Islam is a bit more tenacious generally owing to the fervor of many of its many adherents (some of whom killed a U.S. Ambassador two days ago).

As long as there is an unknown, and a fear or uncertainty of that unknown, coupled with desire, and at least two people, one of whom can give comfort or solace to the other by advancing the notion that the unknown is somehow knowable through a book he has, or a revelation he was given, or a source to which he/she may have exclusive access, then there will be religious belief.

It's very tempting for me to think that the propensity for religious belief is hard-wired into our DNA -- with the trait being recessive in some (the non-, or anti-religious) and possibly dominant in others (zealots), with most probably falling somewhere in-between (will accept belief under some conditions, might engage in some ritual behavior).

leah wrote:

Harrison wrote:I personally believe nothing happens when you die. Nothing at all. Your electrical signals stop firing in your brain and that's it. Forever.

this is why i fear death, because i fear that this might be true. ceasing to exist is terrifying to me. if i think about it too long, i start to actually freak out.

...i'm starting to think i might have some anxiety issues. :\

I take some comfort in it.