namelesstavern.net

new idea from Occupy Wall Street people:

1. stable donors pitch in money
2. RJ staff buys "distressed" debts on the debt market for pennies on the dollar
3. RJ staff cancels the debt outright
4. repeat

in a test run to see if the idea worked, RJ staff spent $500 on approximately $14,000 of debt and then just made it go POOF. so far they've raised over $100k, which at current rates can be leveraged into $2M+. holy shit!

i think it's a pretty brilliant idea, kinda hacks the system a little. i can already hear the argument against it though - something like "if people randomly have their debt forgiven, they'll never learn the responsibility required to keep them from going right back into debt" etc etc, but fuck that. it wasn't a lack of personal responsibility that turned a $25,000 student loan into a $300,000 debt - it was a rigged system designed to create debt slaves

i don't buy it. the morality principle that you're shrugging off has more weight than you obviously think. especially if the loan you brought up is a personal example. i had that much in student loans and now i'm at $5k. why? because i made my payments. and this is in ~8 years, dunno how long you've been paying yours

if you do what you agreed to do (pay) you actually don't go further into debt. crazy concept, but i don't think loans need an overhaul. if people actually attempted scholarships and grants they'd be really surprised. most scholarships i hear people getting are because they were the only applicant. people just don't try anymore

i'm surprised collectors are willing to sell a distressed debt for pennies, honestly. but that system won't teach those in debt any responsibility, and i can't get past that

also surprised Occupy is still going on. has it accomplished stuff yet? serious question/i don't follow politics

i started with $18,500 and have it down to almost $12,000 after 6.5 years. so i guess i kill about $1,000 a year? sigh. but yeah, it's going down i guess. i wish i had some extra wiggle room budget-wise to pay more than the minimum payment, but there are too many other things demanding my financial attention.

anyway, i love the sentiment behind this occupy scheme. i'm curious to see where it goes.

This is why education should be "free". Not really free but funded in such a way that students don't leave school 20k in the hole.

Leah, what is the interest rate of that loan? Using someone elses money is never free :\.

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That's my point, k-12 is "free" not really as we both know but still. Why should it stop there? discuss?

Why can't I have an option to get advanced learning based on condition?

Why do so many jobs require a 4 year degree?

Why does HR not even allow me to look at resumes that aren't "degreed"?

Why does a piece of paper that says Michigan State cost 20k more than Oakland University even though the qualifications and curriculum are the same?

I suppose that is the root of the problem I have with higher learning. It's how much you have in your pocket, not how much you know, or how well you did, but how big your bank account is.

You're in Canada so perhaps you don't understand the levels of approved discrimination there is in the US.

BTW, some of the point I'm trying to make is seriously fucking the troops when they return. Due to how our approved discremination works, nurses and other medical staff can't even get a job as a nurses aid. The best IT guy could come out of the Army but if they didn't have a 4 year degree, I wouldn't even be allowed to look at their credentials.

So go spend 4 years in the service, become an expert at your field there, come back, spend 4 more years to get in debt, and then hope your credentials look better than the name brand schools.

I suspect a metric ass ton of folks join the service for the "free card" to higher learning.

ClakarEQ wrote:This is why education should be "free". Not really free but funded in such a way that students don't leave school 20k in the hole.

Leah, what is the interest rate of that loan? Using someone elses money is never free :\.

3.75% or 4% or something? i can't remember exactly.

Well then you only throw away 5-8k, see, that's not so bad . Hmm, borrow 18k to get a higher education, take 20 years to pay it off, that 18k cost me 26k .

And Leah, I'm not picking on you at all, it's really just to show how bad I think the system is when it comes to folks like you. People who want to better themselves, make the sacrifices, etc.

i did further investigation; it seems student loan debt is protected from this kind of transaction (you can't even get rid of student debt via bankruptcy)

(which is certainly its own flavor of bullshit)


but replace "student debt" with "medical debt" and the point actually works even better

Medical debt overhaul i can get behind. Probably most other types too, hahahah. But i guess the PPACA will help with the medical debt issue

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Tikker wrote:educattion free? that's elementary school and highschool.

I actually think it's gotten stupid with the percentage of people who think they have a RIGHT to get a college education, rather than just getting a real job.

I have to agree.

Let's cut the fat on our current education and stop teaching stupid shit, and teach people meaningful skills and other things necessary for life. Not fucking Trigonometry, Calculus, etc. which 99% of the people will never use, ever, in any field they go into later in life.

I can graph this bullshit! But, I don't know how to write a check. Failure at life, provided for by the Government. Congratulations, but at least they passed their standardized testing! SUCCESS

Fuck public education.

Tikker wrote:

ClakarEQ wrote:That's my point, k-12 is "free" not really as we both know but still. Why should it stop there? discuss?

you're barking up the wrong tree here Clakar

I think you're the one barking.

You're not seeing the difference between the have and have nots. All you're saying is in order to get "paid" you have to spend big. I think that is bullshit. You shouldn't have to be in a specific financial situation to get a good education beyond k12. All you want is to keep your thumb on those under you UNLESS they can afford it. I want to give them an opportunity, based on performance, not on financial standings as you'd prefer. Again, saying life is what you make it is bullshit. Social standing should not come into play regarding education, and it does, and that is wrong. I find it equally wrong that education from instituion A can cost 400% more than B when the credentials are "equal".

Want free college? Join the military.

Take out 20k in loans to major in Liberal Arts and then find out you still can't find a job? Eat shit and pay your loan as a waitress/burger flipper.

I'm poor as shit, but I can assure you one simple thing. I have zero debt. None, zilch, zip. No credit card debt, no loans, no unpaid bills (in fact I'm probably a month ahead average, several for some others)

I don't think we should be giving free passes to poor judgement calls made by adults.

You're not understanding what I"m getting at, it's ok I don't care to debate it. If someone wants to get a degree in liberal arts and can maintain the conditions required (e.g. 2.75 gpa or whatever) then they should be able to do that regardless of financial standing and it shouldn't cost what it costs.

What poor judgement call is being made by adults?

Debt isn't the issue, being forced into debt because of your ability to achieve higher education is. You're being punished because you want to "do more". So if I hear what some folks are saying is if you're poor, "don't achive what you're capable of, just be happy that you have a low paying job". If you're not poor "even though you're not capable, get school paid for with 1.5 gpa, get your papers and make money".

Is it only me that sees the issue there? I don't mean to point out the problem without resolution.

i hate to say this

but josh just because you couldn't manage public education doesn't mean it's useless

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meanwhile there are people who are getting evicted because they can't make payments on their $400,000 debt that came from a toxic $125,000 loan they got for a house worth $91,000

that's not entitlement, that's the system is fucking rigged

brinstar wrote:i hate to say this

but josh just because you couldn't manage public education doesn't mean it's useless

Couldn't manage? Lol. I aced every test, every time.

All honors and AP classes, straight A's.

I dropped out because of family problems, not because it was hard. The very fucking idea of high school being difficult is a massive joke. You have to be a downright handicapped individual to find difficulty in public schooling. I was thoroughly bored by it all, and they had nothing to teach me besides physics. (College professor brought in to teach it and then the class was scrapped due to low demand...lol fucking idiots in that small town.)

brinstar wrote:meanwhile there are people who are getting evicted because they can't make payments on their $400,000 debt that came from a toxic $125,000 loan they got for a house worth $91,000

that's not entitlement, that's the system is fucking rigged

This I can agree with and should be downright criminal. But, it's legal to fuck poor people as long as you're rich.

Tikker wrote:

ClakarEQ wrote:That's my point, k-12 is "free" not really as we both know but still. Why should it stop there? discuss?

the basic taxes your parents paid for your elementary/highschool education are to give you enough education to get a working job

if you decide you want to be something else, you have the right to pony up the fees to earn that education for the pathway to a higher paying career job

simple stuff here


just cause you were a nice kid doesn't mean that you've automatically earned the right to a 6 figure pay cheque



why do so many jobs require a 4 year degree? because there is a base competency expected that isn't generally learned by the time you reach grade 12

you're barking up the wrong tree here Clakar

you're wrong.

and the reason you're wrong is that if you think a 4 year degree gets you anywhere near a 6 figure paycheck, I'd love to know where to find that school... and the company that throws that much money at you just for having a degree, which has become a basic requirement for jobs just above minimum wage anymore. That "base competency" for so many jobs that you speak of exists even in administrative assistant and secretarial type jobs.. are you implying that you can't learn how to file alphabetically, type, and answer the phone cordially by 12th grade? That you seriously need a college education for that?

Entry level grads are lucky to find a 35k job right out of the gate. And I mean very, very lucky. And 35k is barely middle class depending on where you live. And even in areas where cost of living isn't that high, you go ahead and try to live on 35k while balancing $400/month in student loan debt.

The premise that good jobs are resevered for the highest bidder who can afford the most expensive education is a fucking joke.

Listen, you have to pay your dues anywhere you go. I also wholeheartedly disagree with the notion that just because you have a degree means you're entitled to a job without work experience. I've worked since I was 14, and for half of those years I worked 2 jobs or a minimum of 60 hours a week. I've busted my ass to get my career path, and even as fortunate as I am there is a point in my career ladder that will halt my progression unless I have that piece of paper due to DAWIA regulations.

My education is completely out of my own pocket, and that point where progression halts is not a point that anything I've learned in college is going to give me any additional insight because it's a point where I will have been in my career track for 5 years. At that point, nothing but on the job training is going to supplment my resume for those higher positions. But that's neither here nor there -- you get your degree and you go into debt or you do not progress any further. Period.

I went back to school because I needed an AS at minimum to get my foot in the door and I'll need my BAS if I expect to progress past that stopping point. I've learned almost nothing in college that I haven't learned from work experience and just being a person observing the world and experiencing life. But that doesn't matter in modern American society. It doesn't matter if there's any value added from that degree. You'd best have it, or you're going to be stagnant in most any career path you choose. That's why the exorbitant costs of an education are so ludicrous. Not because it's a luxury, but because it's become a necessity just to get by.

Gypsiyee wrote:I went back to school because I needed an AS at minimum to get my foot in the door and I'll need my BAS if I expect to progress past that stopping point. I've learned almost nothing in college that I haven't learned from work experience and just being a person observing the world and experiencing life. But that doesn't matter in modern American society. It doesn't matter if there's any value added from that degree. You'd best have it, or you're going to be stagnant in most any career path you choose. That's why the exorbitant costs of an education are so ludicrous. Not because it's a luxury, but because it's become a necessity just to get by.

QFT

My real life example. I have no options for forward mobility as the next step in my path is Director level. I don't have a BS and it's an unwritten rule that you can't be a Director level without one. I've got over 26 years in IT. I don't want it taken that I'm not grateful to my employer. I've busted my ass like lots of folks. It is frustrating though to see how it all works on the inside coming from the place I came from.

I don't want that seen as an excuse. I still have the means to get a BS. I'll be honest though, I don't know that I'm willing to make the time sacrifice at 43. I'd like to say I'm half way done with work, only 20 more for retirement (/laugh)

Harrison wrote:Not fucking Trigonometry, Calculus, etc. which 99% of the people will never use, ever, in any field they go into later in life.

Sure, this way we can go back to making honest living in horseshoeing since no one will be able to engineer anything.

Getting a 4 year degree today is equivalent to getting your high school diploma back in the 90's. The prestige that a BA or BS carried back then is now reserved for people with Masters degrees. End of the day, real world job experience trumps all of those things however they do use college degrees as criterion to filter out shitty or unskilled workers. The unfortunate side effect is that good, qualified people unfortunately get lost in that mix. Truth be told, as a former employer in a tech field, a highly skilled worker with no degree in my eyes = quality for less because they're lucky to even get a job. Sad but true.

The problem is high school's current design is by and large not relevant. 12 years of primary school is too much in a piss poor one size fits all environment. It should stop at 9th or 10th grade and provide trade school training for those who do not wish to attend Academic College, and an associates degree for those who do. After ones associate degree, then the fees should fall on individuals, but this lowers the cost to two years from four and segregates schools in a proper manner so those focused on academics are together, and those focused on trade skills and finding pathways to a living wage immediately likewise are together.

This ignores the problem and ridiculous requirement of some fields, such as accounting to have masters degrees and other requirements which are bounded more in feeding the college cost trough than being an actual reasonable demand.