namelesstavern.net

Looks like the internet hates the Xbox One and PS4 is going to dominate. Any console gamers here? What are you gonna get?

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... 022&type=1

(Xbox's Facebook page with them changing their cover photo to a preorder plug. In the comments section a ton of people posted ascii middle fingers.)

got a wii u

gonna stick with that and PC for now

might go PS4 once the second-gen unit comes out; games library should be good by then too

From everything I've read and watched, PS4.

The shitbox failed miserably on every front, and then the devs said, "Fuck you if you don't like our business model, idiots are going to buy it anyways. We don't care about you(core gamers)."

The DRM thing is total insanity. Having to pay them an extra buck if I borrow your game or buy a used one to register it is a total crock of shit. It's a damn shame that Killer Instinct 3 is XB1 exclusive because I don't think I'm gonna buy one but I do love me some KI.

PS4.

I won't even research anything. I'm just brand-loyal to PS, it's as simple as that. Haven't been let down yet.

once my ps3 dies i'll likely buy a ps4 if i do get another console.

Yea i got a lot going on in my life and my gaming has really crawled to a stand still. In the near future im going to need to replace my pc in the near future so i may just go that route. If not ill get a ps4 once its been out a while and shits cheaper. I never got an xbox and with the whack shit they are pulling with the newest one I dont think I ever will.

Xbox probly. Sony are retards. All the security compromises and botched updates (including the most recent http://community.us.playstation.com/t5/PlayStation-3-Support/Problem-after-update-to-4-45/m-p/40712247#U40712247) make we not wanna deal w/ it. Had a OG 360 for years now and never had a single issue. And i dont borrow or rent games so that isnt an issue for me

Not to mention the thousands of bux ive probably put into xbla. Definitely want access to all those purchases

I have a PS3, but I don't see myself rushing out to get the new PS4 right away -- my console play time is too sporadic to justify it.

But I think if the attitudes here are representative of the larger population, I don't see how MS can continue with this line of reasoning with respect to the Xbox One -- if the backlash is strong enough, I don't see how they can fail to recant their position.

I don't necessarily take issue with the desire to ward oneself against financial loss by implementing a validation scheme to protect one's products, but to make it contingent on a perpetual network connection is, I think, folly. If I were considering an Xbox One, it would certainly factor into my decision whether or not to buy.

I'm probably just going to buy Ouya since I barely play and $100 is a good enough deal for my playtime. Maybe get PS3 once it drops to a 100 since I like some of the games on it.

Menelvir wrote:_________________
"The four points of the compass be logic, knowledge, wisdom and the unknown. To bow before the one is to lose sight of the three. The man who bows in that final direction is either a saint or a fool. I have no use for either." - R.Zelazny, 'Lord of Light'

This is a line from my favorite Sci-Fi book of all times. Whenever I mention this book everyone always says they never heard of it, so nice to see there is a second person who've read it.

Drem wrote:Xbox probly. Sony are retards. All the security compromises and botched updates (including the most recent http://community.us.playstation.com/t5/PlayStation-3-Support/Problem-after-update-to-4-45/m-p/40712247#U40712247) make we not wanna deal w/ it. Had a OG 360 for years now and never had a single issue. And i dont borrow or rent games so that isnt an issue for me

Not to mention the thousands of bux ive probably put into xbla. Definitely want access to all those purchases

Xbla not compatible with XBOne as far as I know. Don't quote me on that one yet but I'm pretty sure I read it somewhere

I won't be getting any of them. Never been a console player, not about to start now.

-Arlos

http://www.giantbomb.com/forums/general ... s-1437095/

Yep

Forgot about ouya. That could be pretty awesome

news broke just a bit ago that MS just reversed course on all the wack-ass DRM shit built into xbone

buy sell and trade game discs all you want, play offline forever, etc

still not gonna get one because lol xbox

but cong MS for waking up and hopping out of sony's jaws before they could clamp down and kill them off

brinstar wrote:news broke just a bit ago that MS just reversed course on all the wack-ass DRM shit built into xbone

buy sell and trade game discs all you want, play offline forever, etc

still not gonna get one because lol xbox

but cong MS for waking up and hopping out of sony's jaws before they could clamp down and kill them off

Damage is already done though. Lotta people preordered PS4's already (me) and a lot of them only want 1 next gen console.

good

hopefully it will stand as a lesson for a long time - if you fuck with your customer base, they will turn on you

Ganzo wrote:I'm probably just going to buy Ouya since I barely play and $100 is a good enough deal for my playtime. Maybe get PS3 once it drops to a 100 since I like some of the games on it.

Menelvir wrote:_________________
"The four points of the compass be logic, knowledge, wisdom and the unknown. To bow before the one is to lose sight of the three. The man who bows in that final direction is either a saint or a fool. I have no use for either." - R.Zelazny, 'Lord of Light'

This is a line from my favorite Sci-Fi book of all times. Whenever I mention this book everyone always says they never heard of it, so nice to see there is a second person who've read it.

Most Sci Fi fans have read the Amber series. I just nabbed the audio books read by Roger for a recent trip as it had been almost 25 years since I originally read them. While good, they aren't close to my favs, and can't touch Heinlein's or Scott Cards work.

I will probably nab both consoles eventually. No rush for either, though.

Yea its that online thing that makes me madder than anything. Ive been broke and not payed the cable. I have travled and taken it places with me that had no online access. I dont need to be online I play alone and kill bandits in skyrim for 4 hours a day. Of all the recent video game nonsense nothing made me more pissed off than that.


Can someone who gets tech explain the reasoning for wanting to do something like that ?

Lyion wrote:

Ganzo wrote:I'm probably just going to buy Ouya since I barely play and $100 is a good enough deal for my playtime. Maybe get PS3 once it drops to a 100 since I like some of the games on it.

This is a line from my favorite Sci-Fi book of all times. Whenever I mention this book everyone always says they never heard of it, so nice to see there is a second person who've read it.

Most Sci Fi fans have read the Amber series. I just nabbed the audio books read by Roger for a recent trip as it had been almost 25 years since I originally read them. While good, they aren't close to my favs, and can't touch Heinlein's or Scott Cards work.

I will probably nab both consoles eventually. No rush for either, though.

I wasn't a big fan of the Amber series. Just not my thing.

Lyion: Which Heinlein are you talking about? Pre-Lazarus Long, or Post-Lazarus Long? Early Heinlein was often very good. Think Starship Troopers, etc. Late Heinlein was absolute crap. The Cat that Walks Through Walls was one of the most frustrating books I can remember reading. The first 2/3 were actually decent, it seemed. Hey, it's a decent mystery, I can get into this. Then, in the last 1/3, Lazarus long shows up, and things go off on a COMPLETE disconnected tangent from the first 2/3 of the book. It rambles on for quite some time with stuff utterly unrelated to anything but his self-ejaculating delight in Lazarus Fucking Long, then it FINALLY mentions the events of the first 2/3 of the book, ties it off in about 5 pages, still with over 50 pages to go!

So oh no, don't talk Heinlein to me unless you're talking EARLY Heinlein. Not a Card fan either. Yes, Ender's Game was good. It's sequels were much less so. Alvin the Maker series was absolute crap. 1 great book does not a great writer make. See: Herbert, Frank. Look at his milking of the Dune story for $$$ later in life, as it's an excellent parallel to Card. First story, amazing. Sequels, well, the first sequel was barely OK, they got progressively worse, ending up as stuff I wouldn't line a catbox with.

Right now, if I want space opera science fiction, I'll read Weber's Honor Harrington series. If I want thought-provoking hard edged Sci-Fi, I'll read something like "Altered Carbon" by Richard K Morgan.


Now, thread derail aside, to answer your question, Spazz...

Yea its that online thing that makes me madder than anything. Ive been broke and not payed the cable. I have travled and taken it places with me that had no online access. I dont need to be online I play alone and kill bandits in skyrim for 4 hours a day. Of all the recent video game nonsense nothing made me more pissed off than that.


Can someone who gets tech explain the reasoning for wanting to do something like that ?

Microsoft wanted to have the online requirement specifically for DRM on games. They wanted to have games so locked in to their original purchaser that no one else could play them, and you had to connect daily to the MS server with your XBox to renew your license, I suppose to prevent you playing a game that is DRM-linked to someone else. Basically, in short, they wanted to kill the entire used game market. Makes sense for them, because they make zero money on that market, and anyone who buys a game used and plays it is someone who isn't shelling out their money to the original publisher for the game. Sucks for players, as you would then not be able to ever borrow a game from a friend and play it or buy a used copy. You want to play it, you shell out your 60 bucks.

Arlos wrote:Now, thread derail aside, to answer your question, Spazz...

Yea its that online thing that makes me madder than anything. Ive been broke and not payed the cable. I have travled and taken it places with me that had no online access. I dont need to be online I play alone and kill bandits in skyrim for 4 hours a day. Of all the recent video game nonsense nothing made me more pissed off than that.


Can someone who gets tech explain the reasoning for wanting to do something like that ?

Microsoft wanted to have the online requirement specifically for DRM on games. They wanted to have games so locked in to their original purchaser that no one else could play them, and you had to connect daily to the MS server with your XBox to renew your license, I suppose to prevent you playing a game that is DRM-linked to someone else. Basically, in short, they wanted to kill the entire used game market. Makes sense for them, because they make zero money on that market, and anyone who buys a game used and plays it is someone who isn't shelling out their money to the original publisher for the game. Sucks for players, as you would then not be able to ever borrow a game from a friend and play it or buy a used copy. You want to play it, you shell out your 60 bucks.

Which in the long run is such a terrible idea. Game retailers make most of their money on used games. Give x trade in value and mark it up 10-25 dollars vs netting 5 dollars per new game they sell. The retailers, whom are the largest source of their product movement, would be fucked. Given they reversed their DRM policy it just blows my mind they could think to assfuck the consumer and the gaming retail industry like that for such a short sighted cash grab. I've never been a fan of Halo or Gears or any of the XBox exclusive titles so they've most likely lost my business.

Sony on the other hand I've always liked their exclusives but like Drem mentioned the infrastructure and security issues are a concern. I'm getting a PS4 and I haven't had any issues with credit card stuff on my PS3 purchases from the Sony Online store but still. I'm banking on the fact they sorted that stuff out.

Lyion wrote:

Ganzo wrote:I'm probably just going to buy Ouya since I barely play and $100 is a good enough deal for my playtime. Maybe get PS3 once it drops to a 100 since I like some of the games on it.

Menelvir wrote:_________________
"The four points of the compass be logic, knowledge, wisdom and the unknown. To bow before the one is to lose sight of the three. The man who bows in that final direction is either a saint or a fool. I have no use for either." - R.Zelazny, 'Lord of Light'

This is a line from my favorite Sci-Fi book of all times. Whenever I mention this book everyone always says they never heard of it, so nice to see there is a second person who've read it.

Most Sci Fi fans have read the Amber series. I just nabbed the audio books read by Roger for a recent trip as it had been almost 25 years since I originally read them. While good, they aren't close to my favs, and can't touch Heinlein's or Scott Cards work.

I will probably nab both consoles eventually. No rush for either, though.

I agree that Amber series is not as great as some of the other series out there ( Wheel of Time, Song of Ice and Fire ) but is still up there in the top 5 for me. Lord of the Light is not part of Amber line though and to me is still the most imaginative blend of Sci-Fi and Fantasy i've read.

Arlos wrote:
I wasn't a big fan of the Amber series. Just not my thing.

Lyion: Which Heinlein are you talking about? Pre-Lazarus Long, or Post-Lazarus Long? Early Heinlein was often very good. Think Starship Troopers, etc. Late Heinlein was absolute crap. The Cat that Walks Through Walls was one of the most frustrating books I can remember reading. The first 2/3 were actually decent, it seemed. Hey, it's a decent mystery, I can get into this. Then, in the last 1/3, Lazarus long shows up, and things go off on a COMPLETE disconnected tangent from the first 2/3 of the book. It rambles on for quite some time with stuff utterly unrelated to anything but his self-ejaculating delight in Lazarus Fucking Long, then it FINALLY mentions the events of the first 2/3 of the book, ties it off in about 5 pages, still with over 50 pages to go!

So oh no, don't talk Heinlein to me unless you're talking EARLY Heinlein. Not a Card fan either. Yes, Ender's Game was good. It's sequels were much less so. Alvin the Maker series was absolute crap. 1 great book does not a great writer make. See: Herbert, Frank. Look at his milking of the Dune story for $$$ later in life, as it's an excellent parallel to Card. First story, amazing. Sequels, well, the first sequel was barely OK, they got progressively worse, ending up as stuff I wouldn't line a catbox with..

I'm pretty much a fan of all of Heinlein's work. His banter between characters is something sorely missing in most novels today. That's also a pretty strong point of the Amber series, even though it's more of a 'Noir' type detective banter. I enjoyed the first Amber series and it's a good read. The rest of Zelazny's work, not so much. I enjoyed the Cat that Walks through Walls, but it's definitely not one of his best works. It's like he wrote the first half and had a good plan, but his health was deteriorating then and I think it showed up.

I loved Herbert when I was younger, but for some reason I can't re-read it anymore. I loved the depth, but after reading it twice it doesn't hold the allure it used to. This isn't the case with Heinlen's work.

The entire Ender's series is amazing so we'll have to agree to disagree there. I think you just hate the guy personally so refuse to admit what an amazing writer he is, which is cool.

I've not read Weber's Honor Harrington series, so I'll check it out. I fucking love Altered Carbon, though, even if it's a bit of a mindfuck at times. Interestingly, Altered Carbon is very similar to Zelazny's works, so I'm surprised you like one but not the other.

Ganzo, I'm a fan of Zelazny. His stuff is better than 99% of what I've read. I just like his first series far better than his latter books. That quote is from the Amber series, if memory serves. I remember it as I just reread the books via audiobooks. I'll have to read Lord of Light again.. That's another one I read 25+ years ago. I barely even remember it..

/tangent off

So, is MS going the Steam route for DRM on the new Xbox? I'm a bit confused in regards to the mixed messages. It sounds like games are 'latched' to accounts?

Jay wrote:Which in the long run is such a terrible idea. Game retailers make most of their money on used games. Give x trade in value and mark it up 10-25 dollars vs netting 5 dollars per new game they sell. The retailers, whom are the largest source of their product movement, would be fucked. Given they reversed their DRM policy it just blows my mind they could think to assfuck the consumer and the gaming retail industry like that for such a short sighted cash grab. I've never been a fan of Halo or Gears or any of the XBox exclusive titles so they've most likely lost my business.

Sony on the other hand I've always liked their exclusives but like Drem mentioned the infrastructure and security issues are a concern. I'm getting a PS4 and I haven't had any issues with credit card stuff on my PS3 purchases from the Sony Online store but still. I'm banking on the fact they sorted that stuff out.

Ahhhh, but is it a terrible idea for them if they want to move more towards a digital streaming distribution model? What if they would prefer to do away with disks altogether whenever they can? Think about the advantages for MS to go primarily to a Steam-like model: Drastically reduced costs for creating physical product, reduced shipping costs, AND, the big one, they get to cut out the middleman. You have to assume wholesale prices for games are probably half of what the retail price is. If MS can recoup 50-60% of that difference by offering digital distribution at, say a $45-50 price point instead of a $60, that's still $15-20 per unit that they are getting paid that they wouldn't if they'd shipped a physical product to someplace like Gamestop.

Their focus seemed to be, "If we provide the exclusive content, we'll get customers." So, they set it up to be as big publisher friendly as absolutely possible. Tighter DRMs, less overhead, etc. Given the extra revenue they could have promised, it would likely have been pretty easy to get a bunch of exclusive titles. Given the normally thin margin for games as it is, what studio WOULDN'T at least VERY seriously consider signing on if it meant they made an extra 10%, say, on every unit sold? ESPECIALLY a company like EA, given the volume of titles they put out? You don't think an extra 10% revenue would make stockholders VERY happy and result in beeeg bonuses for upper management?

So yeah, it wouldn't surprise me at all if the endgame of their strategy was to starve out the retail vendor entirely. First shut off the used game market, where they are seeing no money anyway. Then make exclusive titles be digital download only, or at worst, a MS-branded online store where you could order disks if you REALLY wanted them, but why would you, since you need the internet access anyway? Win-win for them if you look it at that way: more people buying the games (since they can't get them used), more profit per game, less piracy (because it becomes MUCH harder to play a pirated game if your box is checking your serial number vs a MS internal registration database every 24 hours), etc.

Of course, that assumes that players would be willing to go along with this scheme in return for marginally cheaper game prices and the bells and whistles you get from cloud storage and online distributions. It treats customers as abstracts and "buyers" in a financial model, without actually considering them as real people, or understanding the general mindset of most gamers. That's why the entire collective gaming public gave MS a giant middle finger, and MS has had to leave scorch marks in the pavement from backtracking so fast.

In any case, their plan does make a lot more sense when you look at from their point of view looking ONLY at the strictly business aspects of it, yes?

-Arlos

Lyion wrote:

Arlos wrote:
I wasn't a big fan of the Amber series. Just not my thing.

Lyion: Which Heinlein are you talking about? Pre-Lazarus Long, or Post-Lazarus Long? Early Heinlein was often very good. Think Starship Troopers, etc. Late Heinlein was absolute crap. The Cat that Walks Through Walls was one of the most frustrating books I can remember reading. The first 2/3 were actually decent, it seemed. Hey, it's a decent mystery, I can get into this. Then, in the last 1/3, Lazarus long shows up, and things go off on a COMPLETE disconnected tangent from the first 2/3 of the book. It rambles on for quite some time with stuff utterly unrelated to anything but his self-ejaculating delight in Lazarus Fucking Long, then it FINALLY mentions the events of the first 2/3 of the book, ties it off in about 5 pages, still with over 50 pages to go!

So oh no, don't talk Heinlein to me unless you're talking EARLY Heinlein. Not a Card fan either. Yes, Ender's Game was good. It's sequels were much less so. Alvin the Maker series was absolute crap. 1 great book does not a great writer make. See: Herbert, Frank. Look at his milking of the Dune story for $$$ later in life, as it's an excellent parallel to Card. First story, amazing. Sequels, well, the first sequel was barely OK, they got progressively worse, ending up as stuff I wouldn't line a catbox with..

I'm pretty much a fan of all of Heinlein's work. His banter between characters is something sorely missing in most novels today. That's also a pretty strong point of the Amber series, even though it's more of a 'Noir' type detective banter. I enjoyed the first Amber series and it's a good read. The rest of Zelazny's work, not so much. I enjoyed the Cat that Walks through Walls, but it's definitely not one of his best works. It's like he wrote the first half and had a good plan, but his health was deteriorating then and I think it showed up.

I loved Herbert when I was younger, but for some reason I can't re-read it anymore. I loved the depth, but after reading it twice it doesn't hold the allure it used to. This isn't the case with Heinlen's work.

The entire Ender's series is amazing so we'll have to agree to disagree there. I think you just hate the guy personally so refuse to admit what an amazing writer he is, which is cool.

I've not read Weber's Honor Harrington series, so I'll check it out. I fucking love Altered Carbon, though, even if it's a bit of a mindfuck at times. Interestingly, Altered Carbon is very similar to Zelazny's works, so I'm surprised you like one but not the other.

Ganzo, I'm a fan of Zelazny. His stuff is better than 99% of what I've read. I just like his first series far better than his latter books. That quote is from the Amber series, if memory serves. I remember it as I just reread the books via audiobooks. I'll have to read Lord of Light again.. That's another one I read 25+ years ago. I barely even remember it..

/tangent off

So, is MS going the Steam route for DRM on the new Xbox? I'm a bit confused in regards to the mixed messages. It sounds like games are 'latched' to accounts?

My dislike for Card is going on a couple decades old now, vastly predating any knowledge of what the man's politics are. As I said, I really liked Ender's Game when I read it, was meh about the first sequel, REALLY disliked Xenocide, and gave up. Tried reading the first couple Alvin Maker books too, and ugh, no. Didn't finish one, and never got any of the future ones.

Heinlein,I cannot stand almost anything he wrote from the 60s onward, actually. Glory Road was OK-ish, and Friday was at least tolerable, but I didn't like Strange in a Strange land AT ALL, and Number of the Beast was awful. Seriously, it seemed much of his later stuff was just basically porn + philosophy. No thanks.

I dunno about Zelazny. I have nothing against his stuff, there's just something about how he writes that doesn't grab me. I did rather like Damnation Alley though. (The book, not the really rather awful movie) If you like Altered Carbon and it's 2 sequels, you should check out his fantasy series (2 books so far): "The Steel Remains" and "The Cold Commands". Just as brutal as Altered Carbon in their own way, but very well done. I actually did NOT care for his book "Market Forces" though. Dunno why.

The Honor Harrington series is excellent space opera. Don't look for depth or hard edges, as you won't find them, any more than, say, the original Lensman series from the 30s & 40s had. Well told, though, and interesting story. Shit-ton of books in the series now, though.

Back on topic, MS did want to go the Steam route, yes. I think they still want to. But given the massive backlash they saw, they have had to drop the more draconian elements of their plans.

-Arlos