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This is a very interesting thread. There are some pretty varied opinions

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.a ... Post492642

Thoughts?

To me it looks like a typical EQ whiner who wants everything. Wants it easier, yet harder. Wants to know what the best of the best will be without putting any time into it. (yes I am aware he has beta-tested for almost 2 years) Basically this person will whine regardless of what takes place, he makes valid points, but they are unfixable. No one wants EQ back, yet everyone misses old school EQ. Face it, after playing EQ for several years, there will no longer be a MMO that will make everyone 100% happy. I played WoW for about 4 hours yesterday and am convinced I won't play after beta. I have no interest in EQ2 and nothing else is exciting me either. But I am turning this into why I don't like MMOs anymore, so will shut up now.

Some of the discussions were good, and Pardo's reply was also good.

It definitely had a lot of EQ envy there, Paul, and it's good WOW is sticking to their plan.

as long as you remember that WoW is really influenced by the old school EQ junkies and that they're trying to make a game that's true to the WoW universe while trying to take the good parts from EQ, and elimate the bad parts you'll enjoy WoW

OK, time for a trip down EQ memory lane...

Think back, the hours upon hours it took to level up, it took time to gear up, time to skill up, time to make money (remember how stoked you were when you finally had 1pp?) Think about when there was no spoiler sites, no maps, and you were lost? The vastness of the game seemed unreal. The first trip running from Qeynos to Freeport, I remember mine, it took almost an entire Saturday afternoon and evening, scared when you zoned into a new unknown area, pumped when you made it through, pissed when you died and had no idea where your corpse was with your patchwork armor and your last 25pp. I remember those days and miss them, something I will never get back in EQ, and obviously never will get back after my first 6 hours of WoW last night.

I remember grouping in Oasis and seeing a sand giant and thinking, holy fuck that thing is coming to kill me ! and after it did, spending the next 20-30 minutes getting back, only to be jumped by a ghoul and dying again. Most people bitch about it, not me, I loved it. I recall playing with people who were scared to die, when it meant something and always feeling pride when you pulled off an amazing feat in game.

Fast forward to the last 2? or so years of EQ. Any moron could level up, there was no fear of death, no fear of losing your corpse, no need to travel, the game was changed as well as the player base. All I felt last night was the same thing. I would take on any mob, because wtf did I care if I died, I could either take a minimal xp loss, or run back to my body unharmable with a map leading me right to it. WoW is vast like EQ was, but it felt different. Horses available, swift travel, guards that would tell you where someone / place was, wtf is the point, make people learn by exploring, so they can learn the places in the game. Instanced zones, why? So now, any group of retarded monkeys can have the same accomplishments in game as the people who take the effort in the game, I call bullshit.

I do not even know why I am posting this, because someone will come back and say that the challenge of EQ sucked. The fact they paid $12.95 a month gave them the right to the same content as others, even though they didn't give the same level of effort to get there. Games like this shouldn't be easy, they should mix fun with difficult to give you a sense of accomplishment, I forsee the future of WoW becoming the current EQ. Everyone races to 60 (max level), joins a raiding guild, sucks at the game because it requires no effort to get there.

Tikker wrote:as long as you remember that WoW is really influenced by the old school EQ junkies and that they're trying to make a game that's true to the WoW universe while trying to take the good parts from EQ, and elimate the bad parts you'll enjoy WoW

the only bad parts of EQ where the stupid timesinks, like bane weapons, VT key, VP key, PoP backflagging, basically everything after Velious. The dumbing down of EQ is what killed it. The game was dumbed down, the retard masses reached max level, so SOE was forced to push shitty expansion after shitty expansion to keep people busy. Had hell levels stayed, difficult travel and corpse runs, faction type quests for armor and things of that nature it would have weeded out the morons, which would have lessened the numbers of the hard core raiding guilds, which would have slowed them down as well, expansions wouldn't had to have been pushed out at a record pace, which forced the burnout and EQ would still own. IF SOE would have basically told the whining masses tough shit, they would still have a winner on their hands.

DangerPaul wrote:OK, time for a trip down EQ memory lane...

Think back, the hours upon hours it took to level up, it took time to gear up, time to skill up, time to make money (remember how stoked you were when you finally had 1pp?) Think about when there was no spoiler sites, no maps, and you were lost? The vastness of the game seemed unreal. The first trip running from Qeynos to Freeport, I remember mine, it took almost an entire Saturday afternoon and evening, scared when you zoned into a new unknown area, pumped when you made it through, pissed when you died and had no idea where your corpse was with your patchwork armor and your last 25pp. I remember those days and miss them, something I will never get back in EQ, and obviously never will get back after my first 6 hours of WoW last night.

I remember grouping in Oasis and seeing a sand giant and thinking, holy fuck that thing is coming to kill me ! and after it did, spending the next 20-30 minutes getting back, only to be jumped by a ghoul and dying again. Most people bitch about it, not me, I loved it. I recall playing with people who were scared to die, when it meant something and always feeling pride when you pulled off an amazing feat in game.

Fast forward to the last 2? or so years of EQ. Any moron could level up, there was no fear of death, no fear of losing your corpse, no need to travel, the game was changed as well as the player base. All I felt last night was the same thing. I would take on any mob, because wtf did I care if I died, I could either take a minimal xp loss, or run back to my body unharmable with a map leading me right to it. WoW is vast like EQ was, but it felt different. Horses available, swift travel, guards that would tell you where someone / place was, wtf is the point, make people learn by exploring, so they can learn the places in the game. Instanced zones, why? So now, any group of retarded monkeys can have the same accomplishments in game as the people who take the effort in the game, I call bullshit.

I do not even know why I am posting this, because someone will come back and say that the challenge of EQ sucked. The fact they paid $12.95 a month gave them the right to the same content as others, even though they didn't give the same level of effort to get there. Games like this shouldn't be easy, they should mix fun with difficult to give you a sense of accomplishment, I forsee the future of WoW becoming the current EQ. Everyone races to 60 (max level), joins a raiding guild, sucks at the game because it requires no effort to get there.

Thats a very good write up, and I really agree with everything you posted. Its a big part of my dismay with MMOs

that's the only real beef I have with WoW

the death penalty is so weaksauce that there's no real need to play skillfully


/shrug

that being said, I don't get as frustrated with morons as I did in EQ

My favorite story from the first year or so that I played EQ was when my friend told me that his brother cancelled his EQ account because he couldn't find his corpse after an orc killed him in gfay... this guys brother was a total retard and I didn't want him playing with us anyway, and I know that if it had been 2 years in the future he would have kept playing since he wouldn't even have to find his corpse anyway. Anyway... my point is I miss these seemingly pointless time sinks, they really do get rid of idiots.

that's the only real beef I have with WoW

the death penalty is so weaksauce that there's no real need to play skillfully

That's why I am more into EQ2 at this point. Well that and many other reasons.

I've played both extensively, and both are very, very good games. I believe what Paul said does hold true. The initial MMO feeling won't be back for most of us who've played these for the last 10 years. I'll take some fun and new adventures, personally. I think taking a few years off has helped me be a lot more objective than some others.

EQ2 is somewhat trying to take the best of DAOC/AC/EQ/SWG and morphing them into a new product.

In regards to WOW, the more I think about it, the more Tikker's quote is spot on.

Tikker wrote:as long as you remember that WoW is really influenced by the old school EQ junkies and that they're trying to make a game that's true to the WoW universe while trying to take the good parts from EQ, and elimate the bad parts you'll enjoy WoW

Levels mean something in EQ2. They do not as much in WOW.

WOW is much more solo friendly than EQ2.

Death means something in EQ2. It does not in WOW.

WOW has a much better and simpler quest system. EQ2's is not as easy.

EQ2s graphics simply obliterate WOWs, personal preference aside. They are top tier for the industry, while WOW's are the same as their RTS game worlds.

EQ2 does not run on low end machines nearly as well as WOW.

WOW has much fewer classes, but they have endgame content to differentiate, such as their Hero system.

EQ2 has racial traits and other things that have been posted to individualize.

WOW has very good PVP plans for their servers. EQ2 will be pure PVE, still.

Biased fanboisism aside one cannot really compare the endgame because neither has really been played. EQ2 does have a bit more time, simply because there won't be guilds at 50 for a while. Levelling is much, much slower. There will be groups at 60 in week two of WOW.

There will be groups at 60 in week two of WOW.

That really turns me off in a video game. Where's the difficulty?

I think that is a bit exaggerated, Lyion is once again being negative

If Im 60 in two weeks or close....I want a cookie.

Kill Eranikus with a group of 6 at the appropriate level then come back and say that again.

Kill Archaedes with a group of 6 at the appropriate level then come back and say that again.

Finawin wrote:That really turns me off in a video game. Where's the difficulty?

The difficulty is in the hero system, raids, PVP, and other plans Blizzard has. Again, I think Tikker's post was spot on.

Kizzy wrote:I think that is a bit exaggerated, Lyion is once again being negative

It may be negative to you, but it's simple fact.

Explain to me how that's exaggerated, and please give facts and reason.

On Beta 2 there were people who were level 60 in almost no time. Blizzard has posted they are not changing the level curve. Are you refuting this?

Everytime I see you post how negative I am, it makes me chuckle. I'm sorry I don't post all those positive happy messages like Taxx, and I give actual detailed info based on experience.

Taxx wrote:Kill Eranikus with a group of 6 at the appropriate level then come back and say that again.

Kill Archaedes with a group of 6 at the appropriate level then come back and say that again.

Group of 5, not 6 right?

-Adam

Thats what he meant LOL

Lyion wrote:I've played both extensively, and both are very, very good games. I believe what Paul said does hold true. The initial MMO feeling won't be back for most of us who've played these for the last 10 years. I'll take some fun and new adventures, personally. I think taking a few years off has helped me be a lot more objective than some others.

EQ2 is somewhat trying to take the best of DAOC/AC/EQ/SWG and morphing them into a new product.

In regards to WOW, the more I think about it, the more Tikker's quote is spot on.

Tikker wrote:as long as you remember that WoW is really influenced by the old school EQ junkies and that they're trying to make a game that's true to the WoW universe while trying to take the good parts from EQ, and elimate the bad parts you'll enjoy WoW

Levels mean something in EQ2. They do not as much in WOW.

WOW is much more solo friendly than EQ2.

Death means something in EQ2. It does not in WOW.

WOW has a much better and simpler quest system. EQ2's is not as easy.

EQ2s graphics simply obliterate WOWs, personal preference aside. They are top tier for the industry, while WOW's are the same as their RTS game worlds.

EQ2 does not run on low end machines nearly as well as WOW.

WOW has much fewer classes, but they have endgame content to differentiate, such as their Hero system.

EQ2 has racial traits and other things that have been posted to individualize.

WOW has very good PVP plans for their servers. EQ2 will be pure PVE, still.

Biased fanboisism aside one cannot really compare the endgame because neither has really been played. EQ2 does have a bit more time, simply because there won't be guilds at 50 for a while. Levelling is much, much slower. There will be groups at 60 in week two of WOW.

Great overview.

A few points.

Wow doesn't have a herosystem. They plan to have one but won't tell you anything about it. Luckily if you level up one toon and then find out your hero selection is gimp you can level a new one up in a few days.

EQ2 racial traits and top spells etc are not being revealed so that the players can "discover" them. God damn this is annoying. Especially since the highest level earned in beta is 45 and the people buffed to lvl 40 and lvl 50 certainly haven't found them all. Makes choosing a class a pain.

WOW's quests are better organized than EQ2's, but EQ2 has some quests that make all the other MMORPGs look silly. The assassin/ranger quest is insanely good.

Chances are half of those racial traits/top spells aren't in the game yet. 6 months down the road they'll be "figured out" after a patch that introduces new NPCs.

-Adam

why does leveling to the top level cap have to be the main point of an mmorpg?

Becuase thats what the WOW mission statement tells you is fun.

So what is fun in EQ2? I haven't found it yet.

way to not understand what i'm saying

i figure WoW is trying to deemphasize leveling as the main focus of the game, that's why it's so quick to get to the top level

all of the people that played EQ aren't used to that, so when you hear "omg it only takes two weeks to get 60 that must mean it suxxxx" they're looking at it wrong