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seeing as the Mavericks shut him down (which is a joke any player can score on the mavs, especially when guarded by stackhouse or Dirk... you can't argue dirks a good defender Vonk)... there is even more talk about the Kings trading him..

Last night Webber passed the ball to peja.. and immediatly got it back.. and he looked at peja (who had a shot and didn't attempt to do anything with the ball) like WTF

This is like the 15 time this year... Not including not really tryin on defense... if you watched the mavs game.. and vonk should back me up on this... more than half the time he never even lifted his hand to look like he was challenging a shot.. nor did he try to get rebounds. I think i can say at least 6 times he just stood there while a ball bounced 2 feet from him.

What it looks like is bibby and webber don't think he is worth passing the ball to anymore with his lack of effort. And with Mobley there now, who does rebound, play better D, blocks some shots.. and can create his OWN shot, drives to the bucket and can throw down on someone which peja can't... looks like the kings will have to move him by the deadline

As of now... these are possiblities

Peja... for Tyson Chandler and someone else (i am not for this but.. he will get rebounds)

or Peja... for Paul Pierce in a 3 team trade (great if the kings could get a rebounder and defender at center), which would give them an unguardable starting 5

Peja.. in some deal for Theo Ratliff (which i am completely down for, even with his injury probs)

there might also be a peja and bobby for someone mixed in (maybe with the paul pierce one... since maurice evans has become the next bobby jackson off the bench

I'm not going to argue that Dirk is a great defender, but he's much better this year than in years past. To me, it looks like he's simply putting more effort into it. Perhaps this is a result of his increased leadership role? At any rate, he's blocking more shots per game than Kevin Garnett and averaging 1.29 steals per game, which isn't bad for a big man. He's still no Tim Duncan, but I don't think he's quite the gaping void he used to be.

he has always been an OK perimeter defender.. but get any good PF against him.. and he is useless on defense.

he is better now since he doesn't have a PG that plays OLE defense like nash. Thats the prob with the kings atm.. bibby is for the most part OLE-ing and no defense can survive long when every single time down the court there is a deep penetration and dish.

whats wierd is Bibby can play defense, but again lately he has had to save all this energy for offense.. seeing as peja is sucking the ass.. and ther ewas that 6 game strech they were missing 60% of their starting line up.

Malluas... seriously... stop talking about anybody outside of Sacramento... you'll simply look dumber everytime you do it. I'll be one of 3 million people who have said, "Dirk has completely turned his defensive game around this year." You'll be one of TWO people who say otherwise. The other person is another dumbfuck King's fan who hasn't seen any game outside of California in 6 years. Every SINGLE TIME I've brought numbers into our arguments, you get owned. Do I need to bring Dirk's into this? He is playing at MVP levels... and you are a fucking toolbox if you can't see that.

Moving on...

DALLAS, didn't shut Peja down per se...

Josh Howard did. You didn't even watch that game, I'll assume...

Hell, Stackhouse didn't even play Friday, wtf are you smoking?

Josh Howard IS the Maverick's defensive stopper. We constantly put him on the best scoring threat from each team. He held Peja to 9 points(3-10, 1-6). We played Seattle and he was put on Ray Ray. He held Allen to 10 points (4-17, 1-8). Those are typical stoppages for Howard. To put it into perspective... the Mavs are 2-7 in the games that Howard missed.

ah stackhouse played against the kings Vonk he was the one shuttin down peja .. but atm.. you and i could shut down peja

vonk.. find the numbers on how many rebounds and points dirk gives up against the main PFs in the West. then if those are good numbers.. you can get back to me....

barnes doesn't have numbers.. but he was shutting Paul Pierce down for streches yesterday.. same with evans.

Jordan has numbers but most of his defense was challenging shots gettin in passing lanes to not allow the pass etc.

there is more to defense than numbers. Bobby jackson is a very good defender but doesn't have blocks and steals.. he just gets the ball outta the guys hand = good defense

oh and i did watch the entire game.. well i missed the first 2 possessions of the 2nd half.

Stackhouse went up for a dunk and aggravated his groin, he was guarding peja well.. but again peja was standing around.. thats easy to guard him then

only guy, when peja is actually trying, that can shut him down is Bowen. Duncan is the only guy that can shut down Webber constitantly (which then hurts his stats), no one can shut down KG, Dirk offensively can't be shut down.. because no PF is coming out to guard a 3 point shooter. Peja is the only one i have seen guard Dirk with any luck (very little at that)

i think your just mad cause Dallas is 6-11 against Sac in the playoffs..

this is amazing...

Stackhouse played 18 minutes dude... he was on Cat more than anything. Howard was on Peja. Stack basically didn't even play in the second half. Do I need to quote from both the Sac-Bee and Dallasnews talking about 'howard shutting down peja'?

fine, I will...

Dallasnews.com wrote:Under the radar: When 228 points are scored during a regulation game, you would think the defense mostly rested. Not true. Josh Howard was primarily responsible for 20-point Kings scorer Peja Stojakovic getting only nine.

"Anytime you hold Stojakovic under 10 points, somebody did a heck of a job," Don Nelson said.

Said Howard: "He only had six points until he hit that 3-pointer [with 4:01 left]. I tried to make sure I disturbed him on every shot."

holy crap man... stfu aready... JOSH HOWARD DEFENDED PEJA.

Do I need to go to Sac Bee? Really?

Alright... Dirk vs the top fowards of the west.

I'll say that my picks are... Dirk, Tim, KG, Shawn, Zach, Elton and Webb. That's 7. If I pick the 7 most important stats for a forward... and give them scores 1-7 based on HOW THEY COMPARE WITH EACH OTHER... how will they rank?

Dirk Nowitzki:
PPG - 26.9 (1st)+7
RPG - 9.9 (4th)+4
APG - 3.1 (3rd)+5
SPG - 1.49 (3rd)+5
BPG - 1.54 (3rd)+5
FT% - .858 (1st)+7

Total: 33 points

Tim Duncan
PPG - 21.2 (4th)+4
RPG - 11.8 (2nd)+6
APG - 2.7 (4th)+4
SPG - .74 (7th)+1
BPG - 2.74 (1st)+7
FT% - .658 (7th)+1

Total: 23 points

Kevin Garnett
PPG - 22.3 (2nd)+6
RPG - 13.9 (1st)+7
APG - 5.8 (1st)+7
SPG - 1.52 (2nd)+6
BPG - 1.35 (5th)+3
FT% - .801 (4th)+4

Total: 33 points

Elton Brand
PPG - 20.4 (5th)+3
RPG - 9.6 (7th)+1
APG - 2.7 (5th)+3
SPG - .76 (5th)+3
BPG - 2.16 (2nd)+6
FT% - .759 (6th)+2

Total: 18

Zach Randolph
PPG - 18.9 (7th)+1
RPG - 9.7 (6th)+2
APG - 2 (7th)+1
SPG - .76 (6th)+2
BPG - .36 (7th)+1
FT% - .817 (3rd)+5

Total: 12 points

Chris Webber
PPG - 21.4 (3rd)+5
RPG - 9.8 (5th)+3
APG - 5.5 (2nd)+6
SPG - 1.47 (4th)+4
BPG - .70 (6th)+2
FT% - .788 (5th)+3

Total: 23 points

Shawn Marion
PPG - 19.4 (6th)+2
RPG - 11 (3rd)+5
APG - 2.2 (6th)+2
SPG - 2.12 (1st)+7
BPG - 1.42 (4th)+4
FT% - .824 (2nd)+6

Total: 26 points.

Final:

(1) Dirk Nowitzki: 33 points
(2) Kevin Garnett: 33 points
(3) Shawn Marion: 26 points
(4) Tim Duncan: 23 points
(5) Chris Webber: 23 points
(6) Elton Brand: 18 points
(7) Zach Randolph: 12 points


The ties are broken because of team record .

OHNOES! Malluas asked for numbers and got owned AGAIN.

Actually, I think he was asking for numbers in head-to-head matchups, Vonk. Doing it on a per-game average is going to skew your results as well, as certain Dun... errrr, players are simply not playing as much because their team has a tendancy to blow people out, and they're being rested for the playoffs.

thanks xao.. vonk got owned by reading comprehension

yea and by averages Iverson is a better than Kobe.. but would you make that arguement?

Stockton's averages were blah... and would you say Stephon Marbury is better?

head to head against the best is how everyone is compared.

Jordon vs Reggie

Jordan vs Bird

Jordan vs Magic

Magic vs Bird

Kg vs duncan

Webber vs Duncan/KG

Thats where an overall career.. KG (20 10 and 5), Duncan (all defense) and Webber (led league in rebounding, 20 10 and 5) are better PFs than dirk is.. dirk may pass them.. but those other 3 were good defensively at one point in their career (kinda hard for webber to be good now with one leg)

dirks numbers are different because he is a perimeter player.. he is tracy mcgrady but 7 foot. Which in history he will be considered the best ball handling and shooting PF in NBA history, but thats about it.

He will be up against.. a defensive fundalemental scoring pF in Duncan, A great overall PF (offense and defense) with KG, and probably the best passing and overall player in Webber PF in NBA history (argueable but you can say he is just as much as he isn't)

this season he is #3... only because of puttin all categories and intangeables in the arguement.. KG, Duncan then Dirk

in a career.. its probably Duncan, Webber, KG... webber has been doing 20 10 and 5 longer than KG, but they are interchangable.

Dirk has surpassed Peja.. peja was better last season.. this season and the other seasons no... but peja isn't a #1

Without checking any actual, you know, stats (since I'm lazy), I would suspect that Dirk probably puts up better offensive numbers than he gives up even against the better forwards in the west. In part, it's because he's the focal point of his team's offense moreso than anyone except possibly Garnett. He's pretty close to being unstoppable offensively, as there aren't many defensive answers for a mobile seven-footer with three point range.

My biggest beef with Nowitzky has always been that he didn't seem to elevate the game of his teammates the way Duncan or Garnett did, but I haven't seen enough Mav games for that to be an informed opinion, and many of the games I have seen have been against the Spurs, whose defense tends to skew that sort of result.

Holy shit, that was one atrocious runon.

runon are cool

He does elevate it a bit.. if he is shooting lights out. If he is his teamates can score more cause of double teams.

And your right... since he does most of the shooting and offensive stuff he will have some numbers higher... but you have to look at FG%, scoring, rebounding, blocking, assists, wins, losses etc.

I will say Dallas had a better team than the kings last year... but webber and bibby were able to defend enough and score plenty to win. Prob is bibby and nash cancel each other out. Dirk should be owning webber (seeing as webber has no lateral movement now.. and not much before the injury) but he doesn't he ends up gettin canceled out by webbers stats..

thats why i put the other 3 higher in overall greatness. Each of the others cancel each other out in points and rebounds.. but assists is what puts KG and Webber above Duncan in some cases.. and Block shots put KG and Duncan over webber sometimes, and webber's running of his offense.. over the other 2

Dirk doesn't run the offense.. he is the scoring in the offense. And without Nash (eventho his total lack of defense) nash ran that offense great, which is what he is doing with the Suns. With nash he would be scoring a tad less.. but the offense was much more smooth.

Thats the only knock on Duncan i have is he can't run an offense. When he does he turns the ball over alot. KG and Webber are good at that.. Webber is the best, but again thats his job. He is this years Vlade but can score and rebound better.





ANYWAYS back to trades hehe

Malluas wrote:in a career.. its probably Duncan, Webber, KG... webber has been doing 20 10 and 5 longer than KG, but they are interchangable.

Dirk has surpassed Peja.. peja was better last season.. this season and the other seasons no... but peja isn't a #1

Well, it's tough to judge careers as Garnett, Duncan, and Dirk all project to have several years of stardom left. As much as I love Duncan, I'd have to put Garnett neck-and-neck with him. Garnett isn't averaging 20, 10, and 5. He's putting up almost 22, 14, and 6 along with 1.5 steals, and 1.3 blocks. Last year he shelled out 24, 14, 5 with almost 1.5 steals and 2.2 blocks. Over the past half dozen seasons, he's averaged 22.62 points, 12.68 rebs, 5.30 assists, 1.39 steals, and 1.69 blocks. Absolutely ridiculous. The "first-round" playoff knock was always pointless. The players around him never would have sniffed the first round without Garnett there.

Hmm... okay...

so... more numbers that you won't look up for yourself, but... uh... help my cause even more?

game one against the spurs:

Dirk: 24/11/4/1/1
Tim: 27/13/2/0/2

Game two

Dirk: 21/13/4/1/0
Tim: 20/13/2/0/2

Game three

Dirk: 36/14/2/2/2
Tim: 25/6/1/1/1


Pretty fucking even if you ask me.



Game one against the Wolves, Dirk was sick.

Game two
Dirk: 34/9/4/1/1
KG: 23/12/5/2/1

Again... pretty even.



Game one against the Kings:

Dirk: 33/10/5/2/2
Webb: 21/10/1/0/0

Game two

Dirk: 27/7/7/7/2
Webb: 23/11/4/0/0

Dirk wins this matchup...

What are you trying to prove here? Do you not realize that you are like... one of the only people in the entire nation that thinks of Nowitzki like this? ESPN, Hoopshype and Sports Illustrated have all put Dirk over KG on the All NBA first team 'so far'.

I guess that would naturally rank him higher than Webb, no?

Good God, why am I even debating this with you... you'll not find a SINGLE professional writer that shares ANY of your opinions... I'm repeating the views of FIFTY writers. Dirk is a BEAST.

And... as far as Sac vs Dallas... that's all in the beauty of a rivalry. Cowboys / Niners... etc. The fun is found in such debates. Just... argue more intelligently please. Stop telling me to lookup numbers when the results HELP me.

I'm going to have to disagree about Duncan's role in the offense. While he doesn't put up huge assist numbers (though he's been over three a game over the past five years until his minutes dropped this year), the offense runs through him. He's one of the best in the game at catching the ball in either the high or low post, collapsing the defense and initiating the offense from there. With the development of Parker and Ginobili over the last two years, it's become less of a necessity, but in years past, if the offense didn't run through Duncan it became totally stagnant.

If he didn't move the ball so much, he could put up significantly better offensive numbers. Of course, that's one of the many things I love about TD: his absolute focus on team performance over his own stats.

i kno his averages are higher.. i am just makin the point there has only been 2 PFs and i think players.. averaging 20 10 and 5 the last 4 years.

bingo KG is like mitch richmond was to the kings.. considered the 2nd best SG in the league behind Jordan.. but was on a shitty team.

Jordan also said his hardest games were against Mitch

But no big time player without another would ever make it anywhere... Without pippen i am not sure jordan would have won a title.. but the reason they won was jordan (if that makes sense)

Same with Kobe.. but the reason they won is they had Shaq.

btw when are Spree and Cassel gonna get traded hehe.. they have destroyed that team

And also...

Malluas wrote:and probably the best passing and overall player in Webber PF in NBA history (argueable but you can say he is just as much as he isn't)

This is the stupidest thing you've said since "OMGZ, BIBBY > KIDD."

As dirty as Malone was... this point is so

Holy shit, I'm not even going there... that's more effort than needed. I can't believe you just said that.

Best power forward in NBA history is Charles Barkley.

i didn't puncuate correctly.. i believe him as the best passing PF in NBA history

still waitin for those head to head stats... oh wait if you put those up your argument gets owned hardcore

Malone is best PF ever.. barkley is a close second, you can argue that either one of them are the best ever.

C is debatable also.. Jabbar, Wilt, Russel hakeem, shaq (eventho he never shoots more than 8 foot or less shots)

PG.. there are alot.. i don't think there is a best ever

SG.. Jordan and the Big O(i think he played SG could be small foward)

best overall stats wise (in each major offensive category) would be oscar Robertson.. can't beat averaging a Triple-double just about every year of his career

PF.. karl, barkley, KG, Duncan, Webber, Walton, there are a few more which i can't remember atm... barkley and malone head that list, but only duncan has a ring.

wtf? head to head? what the fuck are you talking about? FRIDAY, DIRK PLAYED SACRAMENTO AND PUT UP BETTER NUMBERS THAN WEBBER. WEBBER WAS ON DIRK. THAT'S HEAD TO MOTHER FUCKING HEAD YOU FUCKING INBRED.

You are the Mindia of the Sports forum.

vonkaar wrote:You are the Mindia of the Sports forum.

Even in thread that he doesnt post in, Mindia still gets

one game .. and webber had a damn good game , and Darius guarded him much of the time, and brad

webber was mostly on Dampier.. and playing zone

give those stats, and the average stats of the past 6 seasons

plus those of Duncan and KG vs Dirk

unlike you i have that games stats handy

27 7 7 and dirk

23 11 4 for chris

canceled each other out

lets say miller guarded him more (which was the case)

22 10 4 for Miller


game against Minnasota this year

34 7 3

Kg 32 12 5

1st game against Spurs

23 11 1

Duncan 27 13 2

2nd game

21 13 4 7-17 shooting

duncan 20 13 2

i believe 1-2 vs Dunca, 0-1 vs garnett, 2-0 vs Webber (with on leg) thats just this year

in playoffs, Duncan is 4-2, webber (injured after first game in the series the mavs won in which in that first game outplayed dirk) is 8-3 vs dirk.. not sure KG has played them in a series

I can't even read any of that... can you repunctuate and try again?

i will when i get back from work tonight