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by **Malluas** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 3:24 pm

shit forgot about him also... damnit. he just ran into Parcells and then the cowboys hehe. I like Jim Kelly.

Well Joe also had to play decent Ram teams, which young never had to play hehe.

by **vonkaar** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 3:34 pm

I hated Jim Kelly. Wouldn't even put him in top 10.

by **Xaiveir** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 3:36 pm

vonkaar wrote:I hated Jim Kelly. Wouldn't even put him in top 10.

Hate or not...he was still a great QB. Cant deny that.

by **Diekan** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 4:14 pm

Xaiveir Tanthalas wrote:
vonkaar wrote:I hated Jim Kelly. Wouldn't even put him in top 10.

Hate or not...he was still a great QB. Cant deny that.

Exactly...

Kelly was one of the best QB's in the league.

You don't get into the Hall of Fame by sucking.

by **Malluas** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 4:25 pm

namath is there... he wasn't that great. check his stats. hehe But it was Namath so i guess i understand.

same reason Vlade Divac will be in the BBall HoF. Transcended euros in the NBA but not a great player.. just good

by **Malluas** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 4:26 pm

i hope Steve Tasker gets in (unless i missed he is in the HoF) and Thurman Thomas (but not for a while more, he was great but not emmit or anything like that)

by **Diekan** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 4:26 pm

Diekan wrote:
Xaiveir Tanthalas wrote:
vonkaar wrote:I hated Jim Kelly. Wouldn't even put him in top 10.

Hate or not...he was still a great QB. Cant deny that.

Exactly...

Kelly was one of the best QB's in the league.

You don't get into the Hall of Fame by sucking.

by **Lyion** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 4:45 pm

Malluas, how old are you? I'm curious if you actually WATCHED the 9ers in the 80s? Defense wins championships. The 9ers won due to D and the system. Yeah, Montana is a great QB, but I'd bet if Marino were in the system he'd have better numbers and just as many rings.

The thing is, the 49ers QB had it easy since they had an awesome defense and a great scheme. If you watched the niners, you saw Steve Young and Steve Bono play at the same level as Montana and step in with no dropoff in production.

Young became just as accurate as Montana and CARRIED the niners. Something Montana never had to do, since the Seifert D was in the same league as Buddy Ryans.

In 1981 The 49ers gave up the lowest number of points in the NFL. Yes, Montana blah, blah, blah but if you want to look at why the 9ers kicked ass, look at their D. They got their championship from a killer D.

82 was a strike season, In 83 their D was still getting players and getting better.

In 1984 the 49ers D a league-low 227 points, an average of only 14.2 points per game. The entire 49er secondary went to the Pro Bowl. Thats a pretty good reason why they beat Marino, arguably the best QB to ever play.

In 85 the niners had injuries on D, and werent a threat. Note, your boy Montana wasn't able to do jack shit without the killer D.

The 49ers' defense finished first in the NFL in 1987. A good indicator of their defensive system being just as meaningful as their offensive one.

In 1988, the 49ers were third in total defense and were devastating in stopping the run. This was 'the genius'' last year and Seifert took over after the Super Bowl win.

In 89 the 9ers won with the short passing game and a devastating defense. This was Montana's best year and the 9ers were unstoppable. Much of this was Montana's accuracy and the personnel around him.

In 1990 the Niners got to the champ game with a killer D, but lost to the Giants.

Montana missed 91 and 92, and Steve Young won the passing title and MVP. No dropoff, and arguably better production. In 93, Montana was traded to a good KC team, of which he did Jack and Shit.

So, put Jim Kelly, Dan Marino, or any of the other very good QBs on the 9ers and they still would have those rings because the team in the 80s was as good as they are bad right now.

by **Malluas** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 4:54 pm

i was only there in person thru the 80's and early 90s.. in the stadium. From my first game when i was 1 year old in 81 (NFC Championship game) till around 93 i was there for 6-7 games a year.

by **Kaemon** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 12:08 am

Lyion, how many niners games have you watched. While the niners D was good, I recall a shitload of come from behind victories with Joe. As a matter of fact, back in the mid to late 80's there was always a huge comparison between Elway and Montana about late 4th quarter victories. Those games are won by the QB, not the Defense.

While Montana didn't get KC to the big game, he did get them back into the playoffs and back into the spotlight.

by **Malluas** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 12:23 am

he almost got them there... from a team that couldn't do jack shit (for the most part) before he came.

kaemon is exactly right. the best QBs can win come from behind games alot. Elway, farve and Joe.

Elway did it more, favre had alot of regular playoff game come backs, and Joe did it in the Superbowl with less than 2 mins left and it was a 92 yard drive. Not including games like being down 21 to philly then Joe leading the offense to 28 points in the 4th to win the game

35-7 deficit to a 38-35 win etc that isn't done by the defense (for the most part)

by **vonkaar** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 7:31 am

I'm not saying that Jim Kelly wasn't a great QB... I'm just saying that he isn't in my top ten list and that I don't like him ^_^. I didn't like McMann (I know I'm mispelling that) either.

Lyion - blahblahblahblahblahblahblah 1995 team was still better than any of the 80s Niner's squads.

by **Lyion** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 7:47 am

My point is it's a TEAM Game. QBs get WAY too much credit at times.

Montana was a great QB, but they had a killer D which didn't get enough credit. I'd argue teams playing the 49ers were just as worried about Ronnie Lott as they were Joe Montana.

I lived in Northern California in the early 1980s and saw every Niner game. I've seen Montana play live and not as an infant. My brother in law in his 40s is a lifelong 49er fan.

Vonk, bullshit. The 1989 49er team was devastatingly good. The 1995 49er team barely made it to the big dance.

by **Tacks** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 8:24 am

The waterboy that year was totally underrated

as Vonkaar would say, he was the Arm of their Karma, or something

by **labbats** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 8:55 am

Taxx wrote:If you get stung on your arm and you cut your arm off, the bee sting won't hurt anymore.

by **Xaiveir** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 11:32 am

Lyion wrote:My point is it's a TEAM Game. QBs get WAY too much credit at times.

Montana was a great QB, but they had a killer D which didn't get enough credit. I'd argue teams playing the 49ers were just as worried about Ronnie Lott as they were Joe Montana.

I lived in Northern California in the early 1980s and saw every Niner game. I've seen Montana play live and not as an infant. My brother in law in his 40s is a lifelong 49er fan.

Vonk, bullshit. The 1989 49er team was devastatingly good. The 1995 49er team barely made it to the big dance.

Football is the ultimate team game, that is for sure. Montana is the best quarterback to every play (imho), and the 49ers always had a great D. I know that i would shake in my boots if i was preparing to play the niners as a wide reciever. I would know exactly where Lott was each play, and try to avoid him.

Both teh 89 and the 94 team (not 95, the superbowl was played in 1995 but it was the 94 season), were 2 of the greatest teams ever.

However the 1994 team did not "barely make it to the big dance"

They were 13-3 (3-2 at one point), lost the last game of the year to vikings because they played all backups after the second quarter. Coasted to a division win, first round bye and home field advantage throughout the playoffs. Toasted the bears in round 2, smoked the cowboys in the NFC championship, and then obliterated the chargers. Hardly just barely making it to the superbowl :wink:

by **Xaiveir** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 11:34 am

vonkaar wrote:I'm not saying that Jim Kelly wasn't a great QB... I'm just saying that he isn't in my top ten list and that I don't like him ^_^. I didn't like McMann (I know I'm mispelling that) either.

Lyion - blahblahblahblahblahblahblah 1995 team was still better than any of the 80s Niner's squads.

Jim Mcmahon, and the superbowl shuffle bears! He was the reason why their is a uniform code in the NFL now. NFL didnt like those headbands that he wore :wink:

by **Malluas** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 11:52 am

xav weren't the 9ers up like 30-10 in the 4th in that NFC championship game in 94? won it 30 -20 or something i can't remember.. i just remember they were kickin the crap out of the cowboys.

Lyion... nice little shot there.. i watched them from an infant to 14 years old, and plenty of times after oh and a superbowl.

i would put the 89 team over any team in NFL history (playoffs/superbowl).

what they give up
13, 3, 10 ?

scoring like
41, 30, 55?

not sure any other team did that during the league during the superbowl years

lyion for the most part back then, you could have the best D in the league, but lose in the playoffs. 9ers went against the Vikings in back to back years when they were ranked #1 in defense (the vikes) and obliterated them. Skins, Giants and 9ers had very good -great offenses and good defenses. And they all beat the BEST defenses.

if you look at yards given up and scores, during 88 and 89 the 9ers D wasn't that great. They were good but not great.

by **vonkaar** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 11:53 am

I was saying... the '1995 Superbowl' team... which is correct =p.

Also, that NFC championship game against the cowboys, the Niners were up 21-0 within the first 4 minutes of the game. That was against the 2-time defending superbowl champs, in their absolute prime.

by **Lyion** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 11:57 am

Malluas wrote:lyion for the most part back then, you could have the best D in the league, but lose in the playoffs. .

Defense won championships back then, and to some degree they still do today. Look at the Bears, Cowboys, Giants, Redskins, etc. They won with controlling the clock, dominant D, and turnovers. The Niners merely converted the ground game to a short passing game. The KC team Montana went to was a GOOD team. If he was God, he would've won a ring with them. He did not. There ya go.

Are you really going to talk about fucking football games you watched at one, two, or three years old like you have any fucking recollection of actual footage?

by **Xaiveir** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 12:01 pm

The Rankings in Defense and offense are very very very deceptive. If a team is ranked number 1, it doesnt mean they have the best "defense".

If you get a chance, go to http://www.nfl.com , and find the aikman efficiancy rating system. Troy Aikman has a new system that more accuratly displays how defenses and offenses should be rated.

The Vikings in the years mentioned above, did have a great defense, and only the 49ers seemed to be able to exploit it. Chalk that up to the great talent they had and great coaching. Generally speaking, Defense wins you championships.

by **Malluas** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 12:36 pm

of course D wins championships.. having the best D doesn't mean you will. Having a top 10 D and top 2 offense you have a great chance to win a superbowl. But without a good offense you can't win shit (minus the ravens).

i do have actualy footage lyion.

so by your reasoning about joe not being god cause he didn't take the Chief to the superbowl.. dan marino is the worst QB of all time since he never WON a superbowl. Go up to any person with the NFL and ask who was the best QB ever (minus Terry Bradshaw heh) and montana by far will be #1.

again i point to countless comebacks and the biggest in the superbowl. Defense didn't make that comeback

by **Xaiveir** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 12:46 pm

The reason why the chiefs didnt get to the superbowl with Joe at the helm, is simply because Joe was done. He was old, injured, and coming off of back surgery. Its the same reason the 49ers let him go, his time was up in the league. He was still good, but at that time he was no better than an average quarterback.

by **Phlegm** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 12:48 pm

Oh and by the way, I dont want to derail the thread or anything but TO is out for the season, possibly-playoff - HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHHHH

by **Diekan** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 12:51 pm

Want an example of a bad coach? Two words... Mike Ditka.

namelesstavern.net

TO out for season, possibly play-offs, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHH

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