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Postby Rust » Wed Mar 16, 2005 11:18 am

Ginzburgh wrote:
That wasn't the US and US laws do not apply there.


And I am pretty sure that running a person over with a bulldozer is a no no in israel too. And if it's not, it most certainly falls under the law of general fucking humanity and respect for human life.


I don't know where 'jumping' came into it. I haven't seen the Israeli report, but she was standing/sitting/kneeling some distance in front of it, she didn't leap into the scoop or something. She was wearing a red/orange safety vest like highway workers use.

--R.
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Postby Ginzburgh » Wed Mar 16, 2005 11:19 am

Here is who this chick was. While most girls her age are gossiping about reality TV and slutting it up in Cancun during spring break, Ms. Corrie had a more nobel calling. Stupid is the last thing she was.

February 7 2003

Hi friends and family, and others,

I have been in Palestine for two weeks and one hour now, and I still have very few words to describe what I see. It is most difficult for me to think about what's going on here when I sit down to write back to the United States. Something about the virtual portal into luxury. I don't know if many of the children here have ever existed without tank-shell holes in their walls and the towers of an occupying army surveying them constantly from the near horizons. I think, although I'm not entirely sure, that even the smallest of these children understand that life is not like this everywhere. An eight-year-old was shot and killed by an Israeli tank two days before I got here, and many of the children murmur his name to me - Ali - or point at the posters of him on the walls. The children also love to get me to practice my limited Arabic by asking me, "Kaif Sharon?" "Kaif Bush?" and they laugh when I say, "Bush Majnoon", "Sharon Majnoon" back in my limited arabic. (How is Sharon? How is Bush? Bush is crazy. Sharon is crazy.) Of course this isn't quite what I believe, and some of the adults who have the English correct me: "Bush mish Majnoon" ... Bush is a businessman. Today I tried to learn to say, "Bush is a tool", but I don't think it translated quite right. But anyway, there are eight-year-olds here much more aware of the workings of the global power structure than I was just a few years ago.

Nevertheless, no amount of reading, attendance at conferences, documentary viewing and word of mouth could have prepared me for the reality of the situation here. You just can't imagine it unless you see it - and even then you are always well aware that your experience of it is not at all the reality: what with the difficulties the Israeli army would face if they shot an unarmed US citizen, and with the fact that I have money to buy water when the army destroys wells, and the fact, of course, that I have the option of leaving. Nobody in my family has been shot, driving in their car, by a rocket launcher from a tower at the end of a major street in my hometown. I have a home. I am allowed to go see the ocean. When I leave for school or work I can be relatively certain that there will not be a heavily armed soldier waiting halfway between Mud Bay and downtown Olympia at a checkpoint with the power to decide whether I can go about my business, and whether I can get home again when I'm done. As an afterthought to all this rambling, I am in Rafah: a city of about 140,000 people, approximately 60% of whom are refugees - many of whom are twice or three times refugees. Today, as I walked on top of the rubble where homes once stood, Egyptian soldiers called to me from the other side of the border, "Go! Go!" because a tank was coming. And then waving and "What's your name?". Something disturbing about this friendly curiosity. It reminded me of how much, to some degree, we are all kids curious about other kids. Egyptian kids shouting at strange women wandering into the path of tanks. Palestinian kids shot from the tanks when they peak out from behind walls to see what's going on. International kids standing in front of tanks with banners. Israeli kids in the tanks anonymously - occasionally shouting and also occasionally waving - many forced to be here, many just agressive - shooting into the houses as we wander away.

I've been having trouble accessing news about the outside world here, but I hear an escalation of war on Iraq is inevitable. There is a great deal of concern here about the "reoccupation of Gaza". Gaza is reoccupied every day to various extents but I think the fear is that the tanks will enter all the streets and remain here instead of entering some of the streets and then withdrawing after some hours or days to observe and shoot from the edges of the communities. If people aren't already thinking about the consequences of this war for the people of the entire region then I hope you will start.

My love to everyone. My love to my mom. My love to smooch. My love to fg and barnhair and sesamees and Lincoln School. My love to Olympia.

Rachel

February 20 2003


Mama,

Now the Israeli army has actually dug up the road to Gaza, and both of the major checkpoints are closed. This means that Palestinians who want to go and register for their next quarter at university can't. People can't get to their jobs and those who are trapped on the other side can't get home; and internationals, who have a meeting tomorrow in the West Bank, won't make it. We could probably make it through if we made serious use of our international white person privilege, but that would also mean some risk of arrest and deportation, even though none of us has done anything illegal.

The Gaza Strip is divided in thirds now. There is some talk about the "reoccupation of Gaza", but I seriously doubt this will happen, because I think it would be a geopolitically stupid move for Israel right now. I think the more likely thing is an increase in smaller below-the-international-outcry-radar incursions and possibly the oft-hinted "population transfer".

I am staying put in Rafah for now, no plans to head north. I still feel like I'm relatively safe and think that my most likely risk in case of a larger-scale incursion is arrest. A move to reoccupy Gaza would generate a much larger outcry than Sharon's assassination-during-peace-negotiations/land grab strategy, which is working very well now to create settlements all over, slowly but surely eliminating any meaningful possibility for Palestinian self-determination. Know that I have a lot of very nice Palestinians looking after me. I have a small flu bug, and got some very nice lemony drinks to cure me. Also, the woman who keeps the key for the well where we still sleep keeps asking me about you. She doesn't speak a bit of English, but she asks about my mom pretty frequently - wants to make sure I'm calling you.

Love to you and Dad and Sarah and Chris and everybody.

Rachel

February 27 2003


(To her mother)

Love you. Really miss you. I have bad nightmares about tanks and bulldozers outside our house and you and me inside. Sometimes the adrenaline acts as an anesthetic for weeks and then in the evening or at night it just hits me again - a little bit of the reality of the situation. I am really scared for the people here. Yesterday, I watched a father lead his two tiny children, holding his hands, out into the sight of tanks and a sniper tower and bulldozers and Jeeps because he thought his house was going to be exploded. Jenny and I stayed in the house with several women and two small babies. It was our mistake in translation that caused him to think it was his house that was being exploded. In fact, the Israeli army was in the process of detonating an explosive in the ground nearby - one that appears to have been planted by Palestinian resistance.

This is in the area where Sunday about 150 men were rounded up and contained outside the settlement with gunfire over their heads and around them, while tanks and bulldozers destroyed 25 greenhouses - the livelihoods for 300 people. The explosive was right in front of the greenhouses - right in the point of entry for tanks that might come back again. I was terrified to think that this man felt it was less of a risk to walk out in view of the tanks with his kids than to stay in his house. I was really scared that they were all going to be shot and I tried to stand between them and the tank. This happens every day, but just this father walking out with his two little kids just looking very sad, just happened to get my attention more at this particular moment, probably because I felt it was our translation problems that made him leave.

I thought a lot about what you said on the phone about Palestinian violence not helping the situation. Sixty thousand workers from Rafah worked in Israel two years ago. Now only 600 can go to Israel for jobs. Of these 600, many have moved, because the three checkpoints between here and Ashkelon (the closest city in Israel) make what used to be a 40-minute drive, now a 12-hour or impassible journey. In addition, what Rafah identified in 1999 as sources of economic growth are all completely destroyed - the Gaza international airport (runways demolished, totally closed); the border for trade with Egypt (now with a giant Israeli sniper tower in the middle of the crossing); access to the ocean (completely cut off in the last two years by a checkpoint and the Gush Katif settlement). The count of homes destroyed in Rafah since the beginning of this intifada is up around 600, by and large people with no connection to the resistance but who happen to live along the border. I think it is maybe official now that Rafah is the poorest place in the world. There used to be a middle class here - recently. We also get reports that in the past, Gazan flower shipments to Europe were delayed for two weeks at the Erez crossing for security inspections. You can imagine the value of two-week-old cut flowers in the European market, so that market dried up. And then the bulldozers come and take out people's vegetable farms and gardens. What is left for people? Tell me if you can think of anything. I can't.

If any of us had our lives and welfare completely strangled, lived with children in a shrinking place where we knew, because of previous experience, that soldiers and tanks and bulldozers could come for us at any moment and destroy all the greenhouses that we had been cultivating for however long, and did this while some of us were beaten and held captive with 149 other people for several hours - do you think we might try to use somewhat violent means to protect whatever fragments remained? I think about this especially when I see orchards and greenhouses and fruit trees destroyed - just years of care and cultivation. I think about you and how long it takes to make things grow and what a labour of love it is. I really think, in a similar situation, most people would defend themselves as best they could. I think Uncle Craig would. I think probably Grandma would. I think I would.

You asked me about non-violent resistance.

When that explosive detonated yesterday it broke all the windows in the family's house. I was in the process of being served tea and playing with the two small babies. I'm having a hard time right now. Just feel sick to my stomach a lot from being doted on all the time, very sweetly, by people who are facing doom. I know that from the United States, it all sounds like hyperbole. Honestly, a lot of the time the sheer kindness of the people here, coupled with the overwhelming evidence of the wilful destruction of their lives, makes it seem unreal to me. I really can't believe that something like this can happen in the world without a bigger outcry about it. It really hurts me, again, like it has hurt me in the past, to witness how awful we can allow the world to be. I felt after talking to you that maybe you didn't completely believe me. I think it's actually good if you don't, because I do believe pretty much above all else in the importance of independent critical thinking. And I also realise that with you I'm much less careful than usual about trying to source every assertion that I make. A lot of the reason for that is I know that you actually do go and do your own research. But it makes me worry about the job I'm doing. All of the situation that I tried to enumerate above - and a lot of other things - constitutes a somewhat gradual - often hidden, but nevertheless massive - removal and destruction of the ability of a particular group of people to survive. This is what I am seeing here. The assassinations, rocket attacks and shooting of children are atrocities - but in focusing on them I'm terrified of missing their context. The vast majority of people here - even if they had the economic means to escape, even if they actually wanted to give up resisting on their land and just leave (which appears to be maybe the less nefarious of Sharon's possible goals), can't leave. Because they can't even get into Israel to apply for visas, and because their destination countries won't let them in (both our country and Arab countries). So I think when all means of survival is cut off in a pen (Gaza) which people can't get out of, I think that qualifies as genocide. Even if they could get out, I think it would still qualify as genocide. Maybe you could look up the definition of genocide according to international law. I don't remember it right now. I'm going to get better at illustrating this, hopefully. I don't like to use those charged words. I think you know this about me. I really value words. I really try to illustrate and let people draw their own conclusions.

Anyway, I'm rambling. Just want to write to my Mom and tell her that I'm witnessing this chronic, insidious genocide and I'm really scared, and questioning my fundamental belief in the goodness of human nature. This has to stop. I think it is a good idea for us all to drop everything and devote our lives to making this stop. I don't think it's an extremist thing to do anymore. I still really want to dance around to Pat Benatar and have boyfriends and make comics for my coworkers. But I also want this to stop. Disbelief and horror is what I feel. Disappointment. I am disappointed that this is the base reality of our world and that we, in fact, participate in it. This is not at all what I asked for when I came into this world. This is not at all what the people here asked for when they came into this world. This is not the world you and Dad wanted me to come into when you decided to have me. This is not what I meant when I looked at Capital Lake and said: "This is the wide world and I'm coming to it." I did not mean that I was coming into a world where I could live a comfortable life and possibly, with no effort at all, exist in complete unawareness of my participation in genocide. More big explosions somewhere in the distance outside.

When I come back from Palestine, I probably will have nightmares and constantly feel guilty for not being here, but I can channel that into more work. Coming here is one of the better things I've ever done. So when I sound crazy, or if the Israeli military should break with their racist tendency not to injure white people, please pin the reason squarely on the fact that I am in the midst of a genocide which I am also indirectly supporting, and for which my government is largely responsible.

I love you and Dad. Sorry for the diatribe. OK, some strange men next to me just gave me some peas, so I need to eat and thank them.

Rachel

February 28 2003


(To her mother)

Thanks, Mom, for your response to my email. It really helps me to get word from you, and from other people who care about me.

After I wrote to you I went incommunicado from the affinity group for about 10 hours which I spent with a family on the front line in Hi Salam - who fixed me dinner - and have cable TV. The two front rooms of their house are unusable because gunshots have been fired through the walls, so the whole family - three kids and two parents - sleep in the parent's bedroom. I sleep on the floor next to the youngest daughter, Iman, and we all shared blankets. I helped the son with his English homework a little, and we all watched Pet Semetery, which is a horrifying movie. I think they all thought it was pretty funny how much trouble I had watching it. Friday is the holiday, and when I woke up they were watching Gummy Bears dubbed into Arabic. So I ate breakfast with them and sat there for a while and just enjoyed being in this big puddle of blankets with this family watching what for me seemed like Saturday morning cartoons. Then I walked some way to B'razil, which is where Nidal and Mansur and Grandmother and Rafat and all the rest of the big family that has really wholeheartedly adopted me live. (The other day, by the way, Grandmother gave me a pantomimed lecture in Arabic that involved a lot of blowing and pointing to her black shawl. I got Nidal to tell her that my mother would appreciate knowing that someone here was giving me a lecture about smoking turning my lungs black.) I met their sister-in-law, who is visiting from Nusserat camp, and played with her small baby.

Nidal's English gets better every day. He's the one who calls me, "My sister". He started teaching Grandmother how to say, "Hello. How are you?" In English. You can always hear the tanks and bulldozers passing by, but all of these people are genuinely cheerful with each other, and with me. When I am with Palestinian friends I tend to be somewhat less horrified than when I am trying to act in a role of human rights observer, documenter, or direct-action resister. They are a good example of how to be in it for the long haul. I know that the situation gets to them - and may ultimately get them - on all kinds of levels, but I am nevertheless amazed at their strength in being able to defend such a large degree of their humanity - laughter, generosity, family-time - against the incredible horror occurring in their lives and against the constant presence of death. I felt much better after this morning. I spent a lot of time writing about the disappointment of discovering, somewhat first-hand, the degree of evil of which we are still capable. I should at least mention that I am also discovering a degree of strength and of basic ability for humans to remain human in the direst of circumstances - which I also haven't seen before. I think the word is dignity. I wish you could meet these people. Maybe, hopefully, someday you will.
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Postby Martrae » Wed Mar 16, 2005 11:24 am

Ok...first off the dozers drivers had already pinned another activist against a wall in a pile of rubble.

Secondly, she had been out there with a megaphone shouting insults at them. (ie making herself a target)

Wouldn't it be safe to assume that maybe, just MAYBE going alone in front of a dozer wasn't the smartest thing she could have done?

Still waiting for how this relates to blacks voting....
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Postby Lyion » Wed Mar 16, 2005 11:30 am

Rachel Corrie, the Olympia, Wash., college student killed trying to protect a Palestinian house -- a house, remember, not even a human being -- against an Israeli bulldozer, will probably not merit a footnote in history books. That's too bad, because her life and death, the way she has been portrayed in some media, and the reactions of her college are powerful examples of an America with many morally confused individuals.

A Seattle Times columnist described her as a martyr. Her hometown paper, The Olympian, published numerous pictures of a sweet-looking woman from childhood on. It omitted the one photo of Rachel Corrie that USA Today, to its credit, published -- Corrie screaming anti-American invective while burning an American flag in Gaza.

Rachel Corrie chose to side with a society that breeds some of the cruelest murderers of innocent people in the world. Rachel Corrie gave her life trying to protect people whose declared aim is to annihilate another country. In the name of saving children's lives, Rachel Corrie chose to defend a society that teaches its young children to blow themselves up and which deliberately targets children for death. And Rachel Corrie went to America's enemies to burn her country's flag.

We are told ad nauseam that Rachel Corrie was a "peace activist." So let it be said once and for all that most of these people are moral frauds. Why? Because "peace activists" routinely protest only against peaceful countries. Has there been one Evergreen State or other "peace activist" in Sudan during its Islamic government's slaughter and enslavement of millions of blacks? Are there any "peace activists" in Tibet to protect its unique culture from being eradicated by the Communist Chinese? Did you notice any "peace activists" trying to save the millions of North Koreans dying at the hands of their lunatic government? Of course not. Rachel Corrie and other "peace activists" only target Israel and America.

Grieve for Rachel Corrie's parents, but spare us the hagiography. Rachel Corrie died fighting for the International Solidarity Movement, a Palestinian group dedicated, in its own words, to "armed struggle" against Israel. She ended up being a useful idiot for, and one more victim of, Palestinian terror.

Excerpts from http://www.townhall.com/columnists/denn ... 0325.shtml

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Postby Ginzburgh » Wed Mar 16, 2005 11:30 am

No, it wasn't stupid.

And how do you know she was yelling insults at them with a mega-phone?

I take comfort in the fact that you don't have a sympathetic bone in your body and the only person that will suffer from your general lack of humanity is you.

Don't worry, maybe with a little luck, Mindia will pray for you.

And no one gives a shit about how black votes compares to the situation so stop trying to change the subject.
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Postby Ginzburgh » Wed Mar 16, 2005 11:35 am

Rachel Corrie chose to side with a society that breeds some of the cruelest murderers of innocent people in the world. Rachel Corrie gave her life trying to protect people whose declared aim is to annihilate another country. In the name of saving children's lives, Rachel Corrie chose to defend a society that teaches its young children to blow themselves up and which deliberately targets children for death.


lol...so we should just consider them ALL bad apples and give in to the notion that they will ALL eventually grow up to be terrorists?

Give me a break. Maybe if MORE people were over there promoting peace, it might just influence a couple of would be terrorists to choose a different path.

Maybe the kids that she stayed with were inspired by her courage in promoting peace because some random westerner actually cared enough to try and save their home.
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Postby Martrae » Wed Mar 16, 2005 11:38 am

http://www.ccmep.org/2003_articles/Pale ... before.htm

14:00-15:00Our press office informed the British and American embassies that Israeli Army bulldozers were behaving aggressively, and were endangering the lives of British and American citizens, but they took no action. The bulldozer continued to try and further damage the structure and we continued to get in its way. At one point, a concrete pillar almost fell on the Scottish activist, but he moved just in time. We were worried that the two houses behind this structure would be targeted, so we placed one activist on the roof of each house. I went onto the roof of the house closest to the structure. Rachel and two other activists began interfering with the other bulldozer, which was attempting to destroy grass and other plants on what used to be farmland. They stood and sat in its path, and though it would drive very close to them, and even move the earth on which they were sitting, it always stopped in time to avoid injuring them.



After about 10 minutes, both bulldozers gave up on their work and withdrew to the boarder, and parked to face the houses, one on each side of the tank. I stayed on the roof, as the rest of the activists gathered to face the military machinery, and held an "International Solidarity Movement" banner, while Rachel shouted at them with a megaphone. Soldiers in the tank yelled obscenities at us, and told us to leave. They fired a few warning shots at the ground, and then fired a teargas canister. The wind blew the gas east of us, and never came close to a single activist. After a few more minutes of this face off, the bulldozers began driving east together on the boarder strip, and we thought they might have given up. Just in case, five of the activists walked on the Palestinian land, and followed the bulldozers. The other activist and I came down out of our houses. He joined the others, and I joined Rachel who had stayed with the tank in order to speak to the soldiers over the megaphone. They requested that she approach the tank, but she refused due their rude and aggressive behavior.


Yup...sounds like a safe place to sit in front of a dozer to me!


Rust wrote:And them niggers what got shot by the Klan deserved it too for being uppity and tryin' to vote, eh? Dumb niggers!

--R.


Maybe if you'd read the whole thread instead of bits you'd see why I kept asking that.....
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Postby Ginzburgh » Wed Mar 16, 2005 11:41 am

Mart, you or I couldn't fathom what it's like to do work like this.

But don't worry, you are safe behind your keyboard.
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Postby Lyion » Wed Mar 16, 2005 11:48 am

Ginzburgh wrote:Mart, you or I couldn't fathom what it's like to do work like this.

But don't worry, you are safe behind your keyboard.


If you want to partake in this kind of idiocy, feel free to run across a live gun range to protest the second amendment.
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Postby Rust » Wed Mar 16, 2005 11:52 am

Ginzburgh wrote:No, it wasn't stupid.

And how do you know she was yelling insults at them with a mega-phone?

I take comfort in the fact that you don't have a sympathetic bone in your body and the only person that will suffer from your general lack of humanity is you.

Don't worry, maybe with a little luck, Mindia will pray for you.

And no one gives a shit about how black votes compares to the situation so stop trying to change the subject.


I would have thought the parallel obvious to an American. Those who engaged in peaceful civil disobedience for civil rights in the US would have recognized and applauded Corrie's actions in Rafah. In both cases they were engaged in non-violent opposition to police and army forces, and stood between them and their victims, only to become victims themselves.

You can call them Freedom Riders, or 'human shields', or 'stupid' if you like, but it's the same act - putting your body in front of the club, gun, or in this case, bulldozer.

Martrae's position seems to be that a young girl got killed because they 'insulted' an Israeli soldier, and was asking it - just like Emmet Till got lynched for 'insulting' a white woman by allegedly whistling at her.

Me, I get the feeling Martrae wouldn't have been a Freedom Rider, but she would have quite happily thrown eggs at them.

--R.
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Postby Aires » Wed Mar 16, 2005 11:53 am

Man people are so stupid and they can get away with anything that dumb. Like i read this story a few years ago about how some burglur tried breaking into a house and he fell through the skylight window thing, and he got injured. Well guess what, he sued them and won. FOR BREAKING INTO SOMEONES HOUSE. This is why i hate the world.
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Postby Lyion » Wed Mar 16, 2005 12:01 pm

Except your analogy is complete bullshit Rust.

What she did was more like someone in the 50s, heading to Hawaii and protesting on the beaches there about the segregation issues in the South.

She went to the one Democratic state in the Middle East to protest about a lack of freedom, supporting a group that funds suicide bombers and supports 'armed conflicts' against the 'Zionist regime'.

It's complete and total hypocrisy. I'm all for real people who support peace, but she was a moral fraud.
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Postby Rust » Wed Mar 16, 2005 12:03 pm

Ginzburgh wrote:
Rachel Corrie chose to side with a society that breeds some of the cruelest murderers of innocent people in the world. Rachel Corrie gave her life trying to protect people whose declared aim is to annihilate another country. In the name of saving children's lives, Rachel Corrie chose to defend a society that teaches its young children to blow themselves up and which deliberately targets children for death.


lol...so we should just consider them ALL bad apples and give in to the notion that they will ALL eventually grow up to be terrorists?

Give me a break. Maybe if MORE people were over there promoting peace, it might just influence a couple of would be terrorists to choose a different path.

Maybe the kids that she stayed with were inspired by her courage in promoting peace because some random westerner actually cared enough to try and save their home.


The attempt to smear the peaceful actions of Corrie's group, ISM, with the actions of terrorists, is really like trying to smear MLK with the actions of the Black Panthers to discredit King.

I mean, their site, http://www.palsolidarity.org , is pretty clear and open about their total adherence to nonviolence. Unless someone's got some evidence they don't follow those principles, what's wrong with siding with the people of Rafah against the occupying Israeli army's illegal actions?

I mean it's US tax dollars paying for this sort of thing going on all the time.

--R.
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Postby Martrae » Wed Mar 16, 2005 12:05 pm

Damn, I've been pegged.

Yeah, I tear the wings off flies and legs off spiders. I throw rocks at girl scouts and mud at benefit car washers.

And I'm heartless cuz I think sitting in front of a dozer in an area of violence is stupid.
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Postby Rust » Wed Mar 16, 2005 12:09 pm

Lyion wrote:Except your analogy is complete bullshit Rust.

What she did was more like someone in the 50s, heading to Hawaii and protesting on the beaches there about the segregation issues in the South.

She went to the one Democratic state in the Middle East to protest about a lack of freedom, supporting a group that funds suicide bombers and supports 'armed conflicts' against the 'Zionist regime'.

It's complete and total hypocrisy. I'm all for real people who support peace, but she was a moral fraud.


No, she did not 'go to Hawaii'. She put herself right in front of the guns and vehicles in occupied territory, the same as if she'd gone to Selma. She wasn't even in Israel - Rafah is not in Israel, it's in Gaza.

Her group, ISM, does NOT support suicide bombers or armed conflict. Look at their website ; it's quite clear. They don't carry weapons, they don't allow alcohol, and they do not engage in violent actions.

Now, if you'd like to show some evidence ISM or Corrie actively support violence, feel free, and I'll gladly take it into consideration.

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Postby Lyion » Wed Mar 16, 2005 12:14 pm

Lyion wrote:She went to the one Democratic state in the Middle East to protest about a lack of freedom, supporting a group that funds suicide bombers and supports 'armed conflicts' against the 'Zionist regime'.


You keep missing this part, Rust, in your very bad analogy.

Wanting equality is not quite the same as wanting genocide and takeover of the one Democratic country in the Middle East.

I have no problem with protesters, but ya'd think they'd protest the North Korean Gulags, or the many dictatorships with a long and in depth history of human rights abuses.

Nope, its purely political to go to the one country that has Freedom in the Middle East and play martyr supporting groups with terrorist ties. Why? Because it's generally safe there, unless someone tries to get themself killed like this moron did.

She was nothing more than an idiot for another Palestinian Terror Group.

But hey, after burning our flag, supporting enemies of Freedom, and being a poster child for the Darwin Award at least her parents can attempt to sue a company for millions!
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Postby Lyion » Wed Mar 16, 2005 12:19 pm

The only problem is they supported other groups

http://www.opinioneditorials.com/guestc ... 50316.html

The family of Rachel Corrie, a pro- Arab “Palestinian” activist and member of the International Solidarity Movement; an “aider and abetter” of pro Hamas, Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad terrorist organizations who was killed by an Israel Defense Forces bulldozer in Rafah two years ago, yesterday filed a lawsuit in the Haifa District Court against the State of Israel and the IDF.

Corrie, 24, was killed on March 16, 2003, when she stood in front of an IDF bulldozer from destroying an Arab “Palestinian” house used to cover a weapons smuggling tunnel near the Philadelphi Route, the strip of land in the Gaza Strip bordering Egypt.

Damn those Israeli's for trying to stop their soldiers from being shot and blown up!

An IDF investigation ruled that the incident was an accident and that the driver did not see Corrie, and the military prosecutor's office decided not to press charges in connection with the death.

Even more links for you:

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/article.php3?id=4839

The International Solidarity Movement openly endorses Palestinian terror and candidly declares its belief that Israel and its people should be annihilated. It's martyr and Mother Teresa is Rachel Corrie, a young American girl who died while trying to prevent an Israeli bulldozer from destroying a tunnel in which explosives used to murder Jewish civilians were being smuggled.
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Postby Rust » Wed Mar 16, 2005 12:25 pm

Lyion wrote:
Lyion wrote:She went to the one Democratic state in the Middle East to protest about a lack of freedom, supporting a group that funds suicide bombers and supports 'armed conflicts' against the 'Zionist regime'.


You keep missing this part, Rust, in your very bad analogy.

Wanting equality is not quite the same as wanting genocide and takeover of the one Democratic country in the Middle East.

I have no problem with protesters, but ya'd think they'd protest the North Korean Gulags, or the many dictatorships with a long and in depth history of human rights abuses.

Nope, its purely political to go to the one country that has Freedom in the Middle East and play martyr supporting groups with terrorist ties. Why? Because it's generally safe there, unless someone tries to get themself killed like this moron did.

She was nothing more than an idiot for another Palestinian Terror Group.

But hey, after burning our flag, supporting enemies of Freedom, and being a poster child for the Darwin Award at least her parents can attempt to sue a company for millions!


Corrie wasn't in Israel, she was in Gaza - the people of Gaza have very little freedom, Lyion. The Israelis have made sure of that for the last few decades.

Corrie decided she wanted to do something to protect the people in Rafah - not the fighters, not the bombers, but the *people*. ISM does not advocate the overthrow of Israel, nor did Corrie.

Why are you conflating people Corrie didn't support or defend, with those she did? She wasn't there to defend terrorists, in spite of all the attempts you seem to be making to link her to them. Corrie wanted peace and safety for everyone, near as I can see. So stop making stupid claims about genocide and overthrowing Israel, because that wasn't why she was there, was it?

And I don't think it's a fair complaint to attack Corrie and ISM that 'they don't complain about North Korea' when there are any number of people like her that do - look at Amnesty International, for example. The fact that Corrie may have felt she was able to do something in Gaza is hardly something to condemn her with.

Again, there has been shown here *no* evidence that would show either ISM or Corrie supported violence. Either produce some, or stop making such idiotic claims. The evidence shows that Corrie and ISM were there to act as simple human shields, to try to protect civilians with their bodies.

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Postby Lyion » Wed Mar 16, 2005 12:36 pm

http://home.comcast.net/~jat.action/ISM_info.htm

The role of the ISM as a partner with terrorist organizations in the struggle to annihilate Israel has been laid out by the Movement's co-founders, Arraf and Shapiro. "The Palestinian resistance must take on a variety of characteristics, both non-violent and violent. But most importantly it must develop a strategy involving both aspects." (Adam Shapiro and Huwaida Arraf, Palestine Chronicle, January 2002)

The ISM does not see itself as a non-violent alternative to such terrorist organizations as Hamas and Islamic Jihad. It is a complementary part of the "resistance." Not surprisingly, given that the leadership both endorses terrorism and views the terrorism of Hamas and the non-violence of the ISM as two sides of the same campaign to destroy Israel, ISM volunteers appear to work closely with Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

A recent demonstration serves as an example of the close cooperation between the ISM and the terrorist groups. The announcement read "Join the ISM, the Palestinian National and Islamic Forces and the Apartheid Wall Defense Committee on Thursday July 3 to block construction of the Apartheid Wall that will completely isolate three villages in the Tulkarem region: Nazlit Issa, Baqa Sharqiya, and Nazlit Abu Nar from the rest of the Palestinian villages." [ Ref9] The Palestinian National and Islamic Forces is a coalition, or an umbrella organization, that includes an long list of terrorist organizations, including Hamas and Islamic Jihad. (Palestinian National Liberation Movement {Fateh}; Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine {PFLP}; Islamic Resistance Movement {Hamas}; Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine {DFLP}; Palestinian People's Party {PPP}; Palestinian Democratic Union {FIDA}; Palestinian Popular Struggle Front; Palestinian Liberation Front; Islamic Jihad Movement; Arab Liberation Front; Palestinian Arab Front; Popular Front-General Command; Islamic National Salvation Party; and Popular Liberation War Pioneers.

http://www.frontpagemagazine.com/Articl ... sp?ID=7361

Members of the International Solidarity Movement have also been arrested recently. On March 27th, a counterguerilla squad of the IDF's Golani brigade was in close pursuit of a leading member of Islamic Jihad, Shadi Sukia, responsible for recruiting several suicide bombers, laying land mines, and sniping. They traced him to a building in Jenin holding an ISM office, but the coordinator, Susan Barcley, refused to let them in. Unfortunately for both ISM and the terrorists, the Israeli Defense Force was not requesting. They entered the office, found the hiding terrorist, and arrested both him and Barcley.

While the International Solidarity Movement coordinator later claimed she did not know Sukia was a terrorist, this does not excuse her refusal to cooperate with the IDF. And it most certainly does not excuse what the IDF found in a search of the International Solidarity Movement's premises - a pistol and a cache of Kalashnikov rifles.

Barclay was deported for her actions.

What is this International Solidarity Movement? According to their website (source: http://www.palsolidarity.org), the group was founded in 2001, and exists to "raise awareness of the struggle for Palestinian freedom." While they recognize the Palestinians' right to 'armed struggle' - in other words, they give terrorism against Israelis a pass - they claim that they personally only use 'non-violent' techniques to achieve their aims. Led by Palestinians working closely with American recruiters, the International Solidarity Movement invites individuals from the West to come to the Gaza Strip and the West Bank and disrupt the actions of the Israeli Defense Force.

The International Solidarity Movement seems to believe that the Western citizenship of these activists gives them the immunity to do whatever they wish within Israel - treating them as criminals or terrorists would cause too much controversy for the Israelis in the international community. Using this 'first-world privilege', the International Solidarity Movement has temporarily taken over Israeli military checkpoints, interfered with the arrests of Palestinians charged with terrorism, and attempted to prevent the destruction of homes containing tunnels for weapons smuggling. Since August 2001, the group has conducted several large, episodic campaigns in Palestinian territories and maintains a continual, low-level presence year-round.

If you only read the International Solidarity Movement's communiques, or the quotes of their members in your morning newspaper, you might be forgiven for thinking the International Solidarity Movement was being deliberately targeted. However, the International Solidarity Movement has been caught lying on multiple occasions.
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Postby Rust » Wed Mar 16, 2005 12:40 pm

Lyion wrote:The only problem is they supported other groups

http://www.opinioneditorials.com/guestc ... 50316.html

The family of Rachel Corrie, a pro- Arab “Palestinian” activist and member of the International Solidarity Movement; an “aider and abetter” of pro Hamas, Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad terrorist organizations who was killed by an Israel Defense Forces bulldozer in Rafah two years ago, yesterday filed a lawsuit in the Haifa District Court against the State of Israel and the IDF.

Corrie, 24, was killed on March 16, 2003, when she stood in front of an IDF bulldozer from destroying an Arab “Palestinian” house used to cover a weapons smuggling tunnel near the Philadelphi Route, the strip of land in the Gaza Strip bordering Egypt.

Damn those Israeli's for trying to stop their soldiers from being shot and blown up!

An IDF investigation ruled that the incident was an accident and that the driver did not see Corrie, and the military prosecutor's office decided not to press charges in connection with the death.

Even more links for you:

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/article.php3?id=4839

The International Solidarity Movement openly endorses Palestinian terror and candidly declares its belief that Israel and its people should be annihilated. It's martyr and Mother Teresa is Rachel Corrie, a young American girl who died while trying to prevent an Israeli bulldozer from destroying a tunnel in which explosives used to murder Jewish civilians were being smuggled.


Ok, where's the actual evidence the house (owned by a Palestinian pharmacist) actually had a tunnel in it? Some statement by the IDF would do. I know rumours were put out that it had a tunnel, or was full of explosives, or used to smuggle drugs, etc. Apparently ther IDF never actually claimed the house had a tunnel in it; that was just put about by people trying to discredit ISM and Corrie.

Here's a photo of Corrie in front of the bulldozer earlier in the day. How hard is it to see her?

Image


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And there are lions on our curtains; they lick their wounds, they lick their doubt." -- 'Curtains', Peter Gabriel
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Postby Martrae » Wed Mar 16, 2005 12:42 pm

with megaphone in hand
Inside each person lives two wolves. One is loyal, kind, respectful, humble and open to the mystery of life. The other is greedy, jealous, hateful, afraid and blind to the wonders of life. They are in battle for your spirit. The one who wins is the one you feed.
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Postby Lyion » Wed Mar 16, 2005 12:52 pm

Read my link above:

For instance, on the death of Rachel Corrie, activists in the International Solidarity Movement flew to the media, releasing a series of pictures on their web site. The first showed Rachel standing off to the side of an advancing bulldozer, easily visible, shouting through a megaphone. The next, her broken, twisted body. The International Solidarity Movement used these pictures to imply to the media that Rachel Corrie was easily visible to the bulldozer's operator and therefore deliberately run down; the Associated Press released the first picture with a caption that read "Rachel was run over Sunday by the bulldozer that she was trying to stop from tearing down a building in the Rafah refugee camp, witnesses said." The respected Christian Science Monitor made the appropriate inferences, writing that the picture showed Corrie "moments before" the bulldozer ran her down.

Other media outlets did the same, buying the implied context - but, after a couple of days, the truth came out. The first picture was taken hours before the second; immediately before Corrie's death, when she was obscured by the bulldozer's blade, no photographs were taken. In fact, she was killed by a completely different bulldozer, a model with much smaller windows.

That picture you have is several hours before her death, but the group decieved the media into thinking it was 'right' before she was run over.
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Postby Rust » Wed Mar 16, 2005 12:57 pm

Note that I said 'earlier'. My use of the photo was to give an idea of the bulldozer viewpoint and Corrie's appearance. I am not claiming it shows the exact moments before her crushing.

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Postby Lyion » Wed Mar 16, 2005 1:03 pm

Being its not a picture of the correct model of Bulldozer, how is your post at all revelant?

Also, do you concede this group is linked to Terrorists, as even the groups founder admits? That somewhat kills your whole thread here, Rust.

None of this changes any of the facts or the relevance. This girl was accidently killed. She went to Israel because she and the others knew that the Government is free and they are civilized.

They did not go to protest where the real problems are. That is a fact.
They were puppets for a group that supports Terrorists and Suicide Bombers. That is a fact.

No matter how you try to spin or support 'freedom fighters' the simple truth here is this was a field trip for those looking for an 'easy' cause and one got killed by an accident.

This is a bad argument Rust and your analogies and comparisons are not good at all. Read up on these people. Read up on what is going on with their leaders and their ties to Terrorist groups.
Last edited by Lyion on Wed Mar 16, 2005 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby kaharthemad » Wed Mar 16, 2005 1:09 pm

Plain and simple....

Image

You win the Darwin award! Next life try to stand in front of a fluffy bunny.
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