Latest lawsuit cashing in on the dead

[Martrae]

Supposedly, that's Rachel there on the ground. Notice how the terrain changes in the next picture.

[Rust]

You might want to crosscheck your sources, Lyion.

http://www.fromoccupiedpalestine.org/node.php?id=787

Hammer himself describes the "recklessness" of ISM but in the process once again exposes his own recklessness and low standard of journalism. He attempts to recount the case of a young Palestinian, Shadi Sukiya, who was captured by Israeli forces in the ISM office in Jenin. According to Hammer, "ISM insists he was an innocent, terrified teenager who'd asked for refuge during an Israeli sweep." Here, Hammer resorts to fabrication. ISM issued a press release soon after Sukiya's capture, which shows the extent of ISM's "insistence":

One of the volunteers went into the hallway to see what was happening and met a young man coming up the stairs. He looked terrified, was soaking wet and appeared to be in pain. Concerned about his welfare--under Israeli military curfew, Palestinians spotted in the streets are shot on site--he was brought into the apartment. He spoke only Arabic, which none of the ISM volunteers present understood. He was given a change of clothes, a hot drink and a blanket... Eventually the military knocked on the ISM door and 30 soldiers entered with their machine guns trained. They arrested the young man, claiming he was "wanted." The two women were not able to prevent the soldiers from taking the young man, whose name they did not even know, but requested that he be treated humanely.

ISM reported only the events as they happened. ISM "insisted" nothing else. The question, as always, is where did Hammer come up with his claim? And where was the "recklessness?" Hammer appropriately recounts the IDF's claim that Sukiya "was a 'senior militant' who'd sent four suicide attackers into Israel." And yet he doesn't follow up to reveal that Sukiya was subsequently held under administrative detention--that is, he was held indefinitely without charges. Hammer made no attempt to verify the IDF's accusations. Hammer also doesn't bother to note that the IDF additionally claimed they found either a pistol or two rifles in the ISM Jenin office when they apprehended Sukiya, a blatant lie which both the IDF and consequently the Associated Press were forced to retract.

Apparently Hammer didn't feel too "burned" by the IDF lies. (Incidentally, one of Hammer's valued sources, Front Page Magazine, has not retracted its own claim that "a pistol and a cache of Kalashnikov rifles" were found in the Jenin office, and they have twice claimed that ISM volunteer Susan Barclay was hiding Sukiya in the Jenin office. In reality Barclay was in the United States at the time of the Sukiya "incident.") It is revealing that Hammer would apparently concoct an ISM claim that undermines the actual testimony of the activists, while he conveniently omits the proven lies of the IDF and his right-wing sources, which would reasonably undermine their own claims.

Retraction story is posted at http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO0304/S00008.htm

I found links to the AP story on Yahoo News, but I'm unable to get it directly, but someone posted it on another site:

posted on 4/22/03 at 11:30
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2& ... &printer=1

Army backtracks on details about militant arrest at International Solidarity Movement

Sat Mar 29, 1:21 PM ET

JERUSALEM - The Israeli army on Saturday withdrew its claim that a gun was found during a search of a West Bank office of the International Solidarity Movement, a pro-Palestinian group.

Israeli troops raided the office in the West Bank town of Jenin on Thursday and seized a wanted member of the militant Islamic Jihad group.

Originally, the army reported that a pistol was found in the office during the search. On Saturday, the army withdrew the allegation, saying only a weapon was found in the building, which also has apartments and the offices of two other international organizations.

"The information originally released was wrong," an army spokeswoman said. It was unclear where exactly the gun was found.

The army alleged that the Islamic Jihad member, accused of planning several attacks against Israelis, was being sheltered by the International Solidarity Movement.

The group, however, said there were clashes outside their office on Thursday when the man appeared in the stairway. A volunteer invited him into the office because he looked hurt, the group said.

"He looked terrified, was soaking wet and appeared to be in pain. Concerned about his welfare ... he was brought into the apartment," a statement from the group said. "He was given a change of clothes, a hot drink and a blanket."

The group said the man spoke Arabic and none of the members in the office could communicate with him. Shortly after he entered, Israeli troops arrested him.

He is still being held and has not yet been charged.

Members of the International Solidarity Movement often act as human shields, placing themselves in between Israeli troops and Palestinians.

An American member of the group was killed on March 16 while trying to stop an Israeli military bulldozer in the Gaza Strip (news - web sites). She fell in front of the machine, which ran over her and then backed up, witnesses said.

Israeli officials are still investigating the bulldozer incident that killed 23-year-old Rachel Corrie, a student at The Evergreen State College in Olympia, Washington.

Likewise it's too old for me to find on the Jerusalem Post's site.

Maybe you could come up with some more reliable evidence?



--R.

[Lyion]

I've posted sources. Your followups do not really change the fact of what this group is.

This group is tied to Hezbollah, Hamas, and Islamic Jihad. That is a fact. Do you have a problem with this? Do you admire people who are puppets of these groups?

I've posted a lot of links, and even quotes from the leader of the group this person was working with saying exactly what he was for and his desire to be an partner of terrorism.

Do you see an arm of Hezbollah, Hamas, and Islamic Jihad as a legitimate organization. I do not. They support killing Israeli's and their goal is wipe out the state of Israel. I have a problem with this. I have a problem with people who support this.

If you get in the middle of a conflict between a different nation and a terrorist group, I do not consider one an activist.

Why isn't her parents suing in Israel? This does not involved the U.S. at all, unless you consider her rallying, burning an American Flag, and denouncing her homeland part of this case.

[Rust]

Being its not a picture of the correct model of Bulldozer, how is your post at all revelant?

Oh, how do you know that it's not the right bulldozer?



Oddly, the photos showing her jacket in the ground and the above photo of her bleeding from the mouth show the same people in the same clothes.

Also, do you concede this group is linked to Terrorists, as even the groups founder admits? That somewhat kills your whole thread here, Rust.

No, and I do not see where you have shown they are 'linked to' terrorists, apart from Hamas and ISM both opposing the construction of the wall in the West Bank. I mean on that ground, you could claim Saddam was 'linked to' Al Qaeda because they both disliked the US.

None of this changes any of the facts or the relevance. This girl was accidently killed. She went to Israel because she and the others knew that the Government is free and they are civilized.

Well, that's a stupid statement. It may well have been an accident, but to claim that was Corrie's motivation to travel to Gaza is idiotic.

They did not go to protest where the real problems are. That is a fact.

There are 'real problems' in Gaza, in no small part caused by the occupation.

They were puppets for a group that supports Terrorists and Suicide Bombers. That is a fact.

The above is clearly also untrue. ISM does not support terrorism or suicide bombing. Have you actually read their mission statement?

No matter how you try to spin or support 'freedom fighters' the simple truth here is this was a field trip for those looking for an 'easy' cause and one got killed by an accident.

This is a bad argument Rust and your analogies and comparisons are not good at all. Read up on these people. Read up on what is going on with their leaders and their ties to Terrorist groups.

Well, you certainly used inaccurate websites and distorted facts to support your position, but I'm afraid you really need to do better to support your inane conclusions.

ISM simply does not support terrorism. They may have joined with a number of unsavory or even terrorist groups to oppose the construction of the wall, but that does not mean they have the same means to an end. ISM, and certainly Corrie, were non-violent protestors trying to stop what they believed were illegal actions by the Israeli army in Gaza. And she died for it. I don't think anyone can claim doing what she did was 'easy'. except someone trying to score cheap debating points like you.


--R.

[Ginzburgh]

I don't care wtf the issue is, it's fucking wrong to run someone over with a bulldozer. The fact that you are trying to justify the action is fucking ridiculous Lyion.

[DangerPaul]

how soon until someone makes an OWNED picture out of that?

[Lyion]

First, Ginz if you had bothered to read this thread you would realize she fell in front of an Israeli Bulldozer that was destroying a house that had a tunnel used for funneling weapons for killing Israelis. She was not 'run over'. It was an accident, and the driver was cleared by the IDF.

Oh, how do you know that it's not the right bulldozer?

Read my links above. It was several hours after that picture and its been admitted it was a DIFFERENT bulldozer. That is a known fact.

More links for you: http://www.peacewithrealism.org/corrie.htm

These pictures have been shown to be a hoax. The "before" picture shows Rachel standing in front of the bulldozer with a megaphone, some distance away and foreshortened by perspective, making her appear to be in clear sight of the bulldozer. The presentation also makes it appear that this took place immediately before the incident. However, the photographer himself later admitted that no one with a camera had been present at the site just before Rachel's accident, that the picture with the megaphone had actually been taken hours earlier, and that at the time of the accident Rachel was not in sight of the driver. An examination of the pictures themselves, noting, for example, the difference in the color of the sky, shows they could not have been taken close to the same point in time (1). In addition, the bulldozers shown in these supposed "before" and "after" pictures are not the same (2).

Indeed both CNN, which ran the two pictures, and the New York Times, which ran the first one, published the following corrections:

CNN, March 25, 2003:

Caption clarification: Photos by an International Solidarity Movement eyewitness show Rachel Corrie protesting earlier, and then later, after she was hit by an Israeli bulldozer in Gaza on Sunday (3).

The New York Times, March 26, 2003:

A picture caption on March 17 with an article about an American protester who was crushed by an Israeli Army bulldozer in Gaza referred incorrectly to the bulldozer shown. It was one that the protester, Rachel Corrie, had earlier tried to stop from destroying a Palestinian home. It was not the one that killed her (4).

Proof enough for you?

No, and I do not see where you have shown they are 'linked to' terrorists, apart from Hamas and ISM both opposing the construction of the wall in the West Bank. I mean on that ground, you could claim Saddam was 'linked to' Al Qaeda because they both disliked the US.

The quotes from the founder linking his group and saying he works in coordination with these terrorist elements isnt good enough?

http://home.comcast.net/~jat.action/ISM_info.htm

A better quote for you:

In the strategy laid out by Rishmawi, Qassis, Shapiro, and Arraf, the presence of ISM volunteers will block IDF bulldozers sent to demolish houses in Rafah that conceal tunnels used to smuggle explosives and ammunition from Egypt and prevent the IDF from entering neighborhoods and buildings that harbor terrorists and bomb-making operations. The assumption is that if hundreds or even thousands of international volunteers could be induced to link arms and block the roads leading into Jenin or Tulkarem, the IDF would be prevented from entering these camps to arrest the Hamas and Islamic Jihad cells operating there. The ISM further assumes that if enough people can be found who are willing to stand in front of houses in Rafah that conceal arms-smuggling tunnels, the IDF will be forced to abandon its efforts to destroy those tunnels.

They were puppets for a group that supports Terrorists and Suicide Bombers. That is a fact.

The above is clearly also untrue. ISM does not support terrorism or suicide bombing. Have you actually read their mission statement?

ISM simply does not support terrorism. They may have joined with a number of unsavory or even terrorist groups to oppose the construction of the wall, but that does not mean they have the same means to an end. ISM, and certainly Corrie, were non-violent protestors trying to stop what they believed were illegal actions by the Israeli army in Gaza. And she died for it. I don't think anyone can claim doing what she did was 'easy'. except someone trying to score cheap debating points like you.
.

I've shown multiple instances of ISM allied with these groups. Its leader has admitted he works in conjunction with them. Cheap debate points would be by trying to 'martyr' someone who is 'demonstrating for freedom' in the one country in the Middle East that actually is democratic.

Actually READ this site and look at the sources. http://home.comcast.net/~jat.action/ISM_essay.htm

There are plenty. We know 'activism' always is right though in your mind. Even when its done to counteract a Free Nation in support of terrorist elements.

[The Kizzy]

I dont think the Caterpillar company should be held liable, I think the man who ran her over should be!!

[Rust]

I've posted sources. Your followups do not really change the fact of what this group is.

This group is tied to Hezbollah, Hamas, and Islamic Jihad. That is a fact. Do you have a problem with this? Do you admire people who are puppets of these groups?

ISM does not support their activities. The fact that Hamas opposes the wall and ISM does too does not mean ISM supports Hamas. Cats have four legs; dogs have four legs. Cats are not dogs. Most of the groups listed on the protest site are also political parties. You just can't seem to accept that people can be opposed to the occupation without supporting terrosim or suicide bombing. Resistance to the Israeli occupation can be peaceful or violent - Hamas has chosen violence, ISM has not. ISM does not advocate the destruction of Israel, unlike your 'comcast' website claimed.

I've posted a lot of links, and even quotes from the leader of the group this person was working with saying exactly what he was for and his desire to be an partner of terrorism.

No, you haven't. What you've done is misrepresent statements, mostly from a website I showed to be in error. Nowhere did the founders say they advocated terror. They said they supported "resistance". So do a lot of people who would not supoprt terrorists or suicide bombing.

Why do you keep lying about that simple fact? I don't get it.

Do you see an arm of Hezbollah, Hamas, and Islamic Jihad as a legitimate organization. I do not. They support killing Israeli's and their goal is wipe out the state of Israel. I have a problem with this. I have a problem with people who support this.

Except for the fact ISM doesn't support terrorism or suicide bombing. They make it quite clear that while they admit the right of a people to armed resistance, they do not engage in it themselves, and even then, only within international law. Hamas and Islamic Jihad do not operate inside international law.

The mission statement of ISM is quite clear:

Mission Statement (Dec. 2001)

A CAMPAIGN AGAINST THE ISRAELI OCCUPATION OF PALESTINE , AND FOR A JUST AND VIABLE PEACE

Palestinians have lived under an illegal occupation for decades. Through UN resolutions, the nations of the world have repeatedly asked Israelto respect international law, to stop brutalizing Palestinians, and to end the Occupation of their land. Under the protection of its powerful ally and benefactor, the United States, Israelhas been able to continue the occupation, build illegal settlements, deny the most basic of human rights, and pursue policies aimed at removing all Palestinians from their homeland.

Israeli Prime Minister Sharon and the Bush administration say that there can be no negotiations under violence. That is true. However, what they do not admit is: The Occupation is violence. The Occupation must end before there can be true progress toward justice, and justice is the only basis there can be for true and meaningful peace.

The Palestinian response over the years has been some attempts at armed struggle (as is their right), but mostly peaceful protests, demonstrations, and appeals to Israeli courts. The vast majority of Palestinians are peaceful, and want only for the Israelis to treat them with justice and respect, and to live in peace with them as neighbours. Although Israel points to the occasional acts of Palestinian violence as a grave problem, it is clear that the Occupation itself is the overwhelming, and continuous act of collective violence in the area.

Because Israeli violence against civilians in Palestine has worsened, and the repression of the Occupation has tightened, many international allies of the Palestinian cause want to do more than write letters, demonstrate, present programs, form solidarity delegations, or send humanitarian aid. They want to do something more dramatic to stop Israeli attacks on Palestinian neighbourhoods and people with bombs and bullets, or closures and curfews, and to stop the United States from massively rewarding Israel for its brutality and protecting its occupation of Palestine They want to take direct action that will oppose the Occupation and force Israel to withdraw from the West Bank East Jerusalem, and Gaza.

If this describes your feelings, this call is for you.

An international citizen's peace-making campaign formed in August 2001, using the proactive tactics of non-violent direct action epitomized by Gandhi, Archbishop Tutu, Dr. Martin Luther King, and other practitioners of creative non-violent resistance.

This is an invitation to join that campaign, to support it financially, or to join our efforts to influence the news media.

The International Solidarity Movement aims to do four things:

1: to dramatize the terrible conditions under which Palestinians live because of the Occupation, and to protect them from physical violence from Israeli soldiers and settlers. We work under the leadership of Palestinian peace activists, supporting them in their creative resistance to the Occupation, and lending support to Israeli and other peace activist groups.

2: to pressure International news media to focus on the illegality and brutality of the Occupation, and to so change public opinion that it demands that Israel respect international law, and that America stops funding Israel with billions of dollars each year.

3: to recruit volunteers from other nations to undertake non-violent resistance to the Occupation.

4:to establish divestment campaigns in the US and Europe to put economic pressure on Israel the same way the international community put pressure South Africa during the apartheid regimes.

International activists have already played a significant role in bringing attention to the Occupation, and protecting Palestinians who try to protest Israeli brutality peacefully. The usual response of the Israeli military to peaceful demonstrations by Palestinians is to fire tear gas, rubber-coated bullets, and sometimes live ammunition at the crowds.

For example: "Shedma" is an Israeli military base that caused tremendous suffering for the peaceful people of Beit Sahour during the first three months of the Intifada. More than 200 homes were damaged, two mothers and a young man were killed, and ten people were injured. On December 28th 2000, hundreds of Palestinians, Israelis and Internationals marched together demanding an immediate evacuation and dismantlement of this military base. The presence of internationals kept the Israeli military from using violence. Italian member of parliament Lousia Morgantini (member of the European Parliament) and the Italian Peace association (Associazione per la pace) deserve special thanks for being part of this and other international actions.

The same thing has been true of demonstrations at checkpoints and roadblocks, which are important targets for action because they are examples of the Occupation's disruption of everyday life for Palestinians. They prevent thousands of people from accessing work, trade, basic services and even emergency medical treatment. International observers prevent Israeli soldiers from committing the usual harassments and brutalities done when only Palestinians are present. An organization, International Checkpoint Watch has formed because of the success of this tactic. Internationals have often participated in dismantling roadblocks with their bare hands. They have prevented untold numbers of Palestinians from being wounded or killed.

The International Solidarity Movement is also dedicated to creating ongoing and continuous support for justice efforts there by encouraging internationals to volunteer for ongoing programmes of civil disobedience and development of Palestinian economic infrastructure, and in other ways to work for justice in Palestine, an end to Israel’s occupation and its subsidization by the United States, and a reconciliation between the government and people of Israel with their Palestinian neighbours.

The nonviolence ground-rules for the ISM are as follows :
# We will carry no weapons
# We will not bring or use any alcohol or drugs other than for medical purposes
# We will respect all the various agreements concerning the actions

Please show where ISM or Corrie support blowing people up, instead of misquoting them.

If you get in the middle of a conflict between a different nation and a terrorist group, I do not consider one an activist.

Corrie was not defending terrorists, stop lying. She was trying to stop Israelis from knocking down people's houses, which according to some people might actually be illegal as a form of collective punishment.

Why isn't her parents suing in Israel? This does not involved the U.S. at all, unless you consider her rallying, burning an American Flag, and denouncing her homeland part of this case.

They are suing in Israel. Your reading skills are a bit gappy, it's been mentioned pretty widely.

If I was an American, I'd be protesting US support for Israel where they used it to kill innocent civilians too. Corrie chose to burn the US flag, as she was an American. Apparently she refused to burn the Israeli flag.

Lyion - what the hell is your problem? So far you've managed to quote some seriously fucked up sites that have no relation to reality. Corrie thought she was helping peaceful civilians under a rather brutal military occupation, and she died for it.

--R.

[Ginzburgh]

First, Ginz if you had bothered to read this thread you would realize she fell in front of an Israeli Bulldozer

err...

[Lyion]

No Rust, I've linked sites that have sources and indepth analysis and links to this group.

You are linking pro sites and you still wont even frickin admit the Bulldozer Media bullshit they perpetrated even after I linked NY Times corrections about it.

To you she is a hero for protecting a weapons house used to kill Israeli's. To me she was a puppet of Terrorist, and READ the link I sent you.

http://home.comcast.net/~jat.action/ISM_essay.htm

Things are SOURCED there, unlike the ISM site.

One more time since you skipped this part:

The New York Times, March 26, 2003:

A picture caption on March 17 with an article about an American protester who was crushed by an Israeli Army bulldozer in Gaza referred incorrectly to the bulldozer shown. It was one that the protester, Rachel Corrie, had earlier tried to stop from destroying a Palestinian home. It was not the one that killed her (4).

[Martrae]

Published on Friday, June 27, 2003 by the Seattle Times
Israeli Soldiers Exonerated in Death of Olympia Activist

JERUSALEM — Israel's military prosecutor has exonerated Israeli soldiers in the death of Rachel Corrie, 23, who was killed by an Israeli bulldozer in March as she protested the destruction of a Palestinian home at the Rafah refugee camp.

The death of Corrie, a student at The Evergreen State College in Olympia, sparked debate nationally and internationally on the role and methods of activists in a volatile land.

The Rafah camp, on the Egyptian border, has been one of the flashpoints in the Mideast conflict. The army said the home being protected by Corrie was being destroyed in an effort to block arms smuggling.

Members of her pro-Palestinian group, International Solidarity Movement, claimed that Corrie was visible to the bulldozer driver and that her death was malicious.

"When the bulldozer refused to stop or turn aside, (Rachel) climbed up onto the mound of dirt and rubble being gathered in front of it ... to look directly at the driver, who kept on advancing," the group said in a statement.

Announcing the ruling, the army said the driver did not see her, claiming she was standing behind a mound of earth.

Military police investigating the Corrie case found that the soldiers operating the bulldozer had no intention of harming her, the army said in a statement.

"Rachel Corrie was injured as a result of earth and building material falling on her when she tried to climb on a pile of earth while work was being carried out by an armored Israel Defense Forces bulldozer," the statement said. "The crew of the armored bulldozer did not see Miss Corrie, who was standing behind a pile of earth, nor could they have seen or heard her."

"I feel I have a right to know what happened to Rachel," said Corrie's sister, Sarah Simpson, 29, of Olympia. "Prime Minister Sharon promised President Bush a credible investigation of her death, and we as a family expect no less."

"I'm outraged, but I'm not surprised," said John Reese, a Seattle member of the International Solidarity Movement who met Corrie soon before she left for Israel. "It's the military investigating itself, so it's not surprising that it always finds itself innocent."

"The big question now is what is the U.S. going to do about it," said Kristi Schaefer, 26, of Olympia, who was Corrie's best friend.

[Lyion]

They are suing in Israel. Your reading skills are a bit gappy, it's been mentioned pretty widely.

I'll just continue to point out your error after error from here on out.

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?BRD= ... =461&rfi=9

SEATTLE - The parents of a 23-year-old activist killed while trying to prevent the demolition of a Palestinian home have sued Caterpillar Inc., the manufacturer of the bulldozer which ran over her.

The lawsuit, filed Tuesday in U.S. District Court here, alleges that Caterpillar violated international and state law by providing specially designed bulldozers to the Israeli Defense Forces, knowing the machines would be used to demolish homes and endanger people.

Wrong about the Bulldozers. Wrong about the links. Wrong about the lawsuits. 3 strikes and you're out, lawman!
Keep up the gappiness!

[Martrae]

http://www.alisrael.com/rachel_corrie/whokilled.html

[Rust]

First, Ginz if you had bothered to read this thread you would realize she fell in front of an Israeli Bulldozer that was destroying a house that had a tunnel used for funneling weapons for killing Israelis. She was not 'run over'. It was an accident, and the driver was cleared by the IDF.

Oh, how do you know that it's not the right bulldozer?

Read my links above. It was several hours after that picture and its been admitted it was a DIFFERENT bulldozer. That is a known fact.

More links for you: http://www.peacewithrealism.org/corrie.htm

These pictures have been shown to be a hoax. The "before" picture shows Rachel standing in front of the bulldozer with a megaphone, some distance away and foreshortened by perspective, making her appear to be in clear sight of the bulldozer. The presentation also makes it appear that this took place immediately before the incident. However, the photographer himself later admitted that no one with a camera had been present at the site just before Rachel's accident, that the picture with the megaphone had actually been taken hours earlier, and that at the time of the accident Rachel was not in sight of the driver. An examination of the pictures themselves, noting, for example, the difference in the color of the sky, shows they could not have been taken close to the same point in time (1). In addition, the bulldozers shown in these supposed "before" and "after" pictures are not the same (2).

Indeed both CNN, which ran the two pictures, and the New York Times, which ran the first one, published the following corrections:

CNN, March 25, 2003:

Caption clarification: Photos by an International Solidarity Movement eyewitness show Rachel Corrie protesting earlier, and then later, after she was hit by an Israeli bulldozer in Gaza on Sunday (3).

The New York Times, March 26, 2003:

A picture caption on March 17 with an article about an American protester who was crushed by an Israeli Army bulldozer in Gaza referred incorrectly to the bulldozer shown. It was one that the protester, Rachel Corrie, had earlier tried to stop from destroying a Palestinian home. It was not the one that killed her (4).

Proof enough for you?

Oh I agree the photo 'before' was taken some time before she was killed. She's holding a megaphone in the first photo. Stories about her death say she wasn't when she was killed, so the first photo must have been taken earlier in the day.

So let's look at them:

BEFORE:



AFTER:




Now, I'm not an expert in bulldozers. But apart from a different angle being taken on the two photos (the second one is taken both closer in and below the first), I'd have to say they look like the same bulldozer to my untrained eye. Did you actually look at the photos before you decided they were different models, or did you just not bother checking? (I checked.)

Same blade shape and rivetting, same cow-catcher thing on top, both have 4 lights, and some kind of periscope thing on top of the cab, and two box-like fixtures in fron of the cab. There's even some kind of rod or something sticking out on the left side of the cab roof the same.

So basically, no, I think you're full of shit about 'not the right model of bulldozer'. I'd suggest other people compare the two photos and voice an opinion too.

As to the website you posted, it's a crock of shit, and so is your interpretation of it.

No, and I do not see where you have shown they are 'linked to' terrorists, apart from Hamas and ISM both opposing the construction of the wall in the West Bank. I mean on that ground, you could claim Saddam was 'linked to' Al Qaeda because they both disliked the US.

The quotes from the founder linking his group and saying he works in coordination with these terrorist elements isnt good enough?

http://home.comcast.net/~jat.action/ISM_info.htm

A better quote for you:

In the strategy laid out by Rishmawi, Qassis, Shapiro, and Arraf, the presence of ISM volunteers will block IDF bulldozers sent to demolish houses in Rafah that conceal tunnels used to smuggle explosives and ammunition from Egypt and prevent the IDF from entering neighborhoods and buildings that harbor terrorists and bomb-making operations. The assumption is that if hundreds or even thousands of international volunteers could be induced to link arms and block the roads leading into Jenin or Tulkarem, the IDF would be prevented from entering these camps to arrest the Hamas and Islamic Jihad cells operating there. The ISM further assumes that if enough people can be found who are willing to stand in front of houses in Rafah that conceal arms-smuggling tunnels, the IDF will be forced to abandon its efforts to destroy those tunnels.

Well, great, except that's not the aim of ISM. It's the aim your nutbar website claims, but it's nothing to do with reality. Like I said, crosscheck your sources. They don't say they support them actively, and you haven't shown one word saying they do. You just think you have. That's your problem, not mine.

They were puppets for a group that supports Terrorists and Suicide Bombers. That is a fact.

The above is clearly also untrue. ISM does not support terrorism or suicide bombing. Have you actually read their mission statement?

ISM simply does not support terrorism. They may have joined with a number of unsavory or even terrorist groups to oppose the construction of the wall, but that does not mean they have the same means to an end. ISM, and certainly Corrie, were non-violent protestors trying to stop what they believed were illegal actions by the Israeli army in Gaza. And she died for it. I don't think anyone can claim doing what she did was 'easy'. except someone trying to score cheap debating points like you.
.

I've shown multiple instances of ISM allied with these groups. Its leader has admitted he works in conjunction with them. Cheap debate points would be by trying to 'martyr' someone who is 'demonstrating for freedom' in the one country in the Middle East that actually is democratic.

Actually READ this site and look at the sources. http://home.comcast.net/~jat.action/ISM_essay.htm

There are plenty. We know 'activism' always is right though in your mind. Even when its done to counteract a Free Nation in support of terrorist elements.

Well, I went to the website. It's pretty weak stuff. The section where he claims to show ISM leaders 'enthusiastically support terrorism' pretty much fails to do that. It does show that they disapprove of suicide bombing and that while they believe that "peaceful resistance is the fest's guiding principle" they do recognize the right of Palestinians to resist occupation, including armed resistance. The right of an occupied people to conduct armed resistance is legal, you know, under international law. Suicide bombing or terrorism, on the other hand, is not legal. ISM's statement makes it clear they resognize the right of a people to resist by all legal means including armed resistance.

Likewise their silly claims that ISM somehow advocates the destruction of Israel, or shelters terrorists (already shown to be a joke claim earlier in the thread).

Maybe you should get some more reliable sources? Again, other people should go check out this joke site Lyion uses and see how they don't even support their own claims.

I mean you sure use 'known fact' a lot when you're shoring up a lot of unsupported assertions. It's a nasty habit, you should try to outgrow it.

--R.

[Rust]

They are suing in Israel. Your reading skills are a bit gappy, it's been mentioned pretty widely.

I'll just continue to point out your error after error from here on out.

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?BRD= ... =461&rfi=9

SEATTLE - The parents of a 23-year-old activist killed while trying to prevent the demolition of a Palestinian home have sued Caterpillar Inc., the manufacturer of the bulldozer which ran over her.

The lawsuit, filed Tuesday in U.S. District Court here, alleges that Caterpillar violated international and state law by providing specially designed bulldozers to the Israeli Defense Forces, knowing the machines would be used to demolish homes and endanger people.

Wrong about the Bulldozers. Wrong about the links. Wrong about the lawsuits. 3 strikes and you're out, lawman!
Keep up the gappiness!

Fuck, you make this too easy.

First of all, see elsewhere for the before and after photos. I leave the comparison to others to look at them and decide. It's clear to me at least that once again you have no idea what your talking about. But I'll let everyone else make up their own mind.

Second, I suggest everyone go look at your links, the comcast one and the other site that still claims they found guns in the ISM offices, even when AP reported the IDF retracted that claim. Good, solid sources there, Lyion.

Lastly, on the lawsuits: http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/552520.html

Rachel Corrie's family sues Israel, IDF
By Amos Harel, Haaretz Correspondent

The family of Rachel Corrie, a pro-Palestinian activist killed by an Israel Defense Forces bulldozer in Rafah two years ago, sued the State of Israel and the IDF for damages in the Haifa District Court on Tuesday.
The 24-year-old Corrie was killed on March 16, 2003 when she tried to block an IDF bulldozer from demolishing a Palestinian house near the Philadelphi Route, the strip of land in the Gaza Strip bordering Egypt.

You can stop stomping on your dick whenever you like. While amusing to watch, you've proved your point, if your point was you're not up to doing any kind of research. And your screams of victory are sounding more like pain.


--R.

[dammuzis]

all this to protect terrorists for an occupation that doesnt exist..

really how do you occupy a place that was won in a war of defence?

so does this mean that the southern states (confederation) are occupied? if not then gaza isnt either

[Harrison]

The entire middle east just needs to fucking sink into the sand.

SHE JUMPED IN FRONT OF A FUCKING BULLDOZER

If I jumped in front of a bulldozer I know I'm going to fucking die.

[Diekan]

Rust... don't be an idiot.

As if he can help it.

[Tossica]

[Lyion]

You just ignore any facts you dont like, dont you? You complain about my sources and quote from "Haaretz Correspondent". Yeah, right...

The sites I linked sourced everything, but hey, it doesnt tell you what you want so you want to question it.

The bottom line is everything you represented was proved wrong. The bulldozer pics. The group has terrorist lies. The situation around her death. Everything.

You ignored the lies this group made. You ignore the fact they distributed photos and lied to major news organizations who had to retract their stories. You completely ignore the founders of that groups direct quotes.

My facts are sourced. Yours are not and you've ignored the multiple links and sources I've provided and segued into different arguements.

Hey, peace and love man. You can believe the world is flat and provide my quotes from the Haaretz Correspondent saying its right.

Sorry, you are way off here man.

We need Ganzo here. I'll email him this link, he has much more info on this crap.

[Langston]

I would have run her over and if someone tried to blame me for it, I'd have claimed that:

"It was a busy construction site and I didn't see her. Per property safety rules, all workers were behind safety lines and civilians weren't allowed in the work site. Therefore, I didn't know to look for her and I didn't see her. It was an unfortunate accident but one that could have been avoided if she had not been in the middle of a work site."

And then I would have tipped my hat to her little activist friends as I walked out of the court room.

Suing Caterpillar is just plain idiocy. I don't care what stupid argument you come up with - it doesn't pass the common sense rule.

[Rust]

You just ignore any facts you dont like, dont you? You complain about my sources and quote from "Haaretz Correspondent". Yeah, right...

Nice attempt to dodge being caught out there, Lyion.

Haaretz is a *major* newspaper in Israel. The fact is they sued in Israel too, and you didn't bother to check it out. It's like saying 'some Washington Post correspondent' like they're not a proper source. It's in almost all the news source I saw. Maybe you have really shitty sources?

The sites I linked sourced everything, but hey, it doesnt tell you what you want so you want to question it.

Yeah - I went to your 'site', I read it, and it doesn't support your claims.
They make a lot of wild accusations, but they don't really have any support. That's why I keep suggesting you might want to cross-check your references.

The bottom line is everything you represented was proved wrong. The bulldozer pics. The group has terrorist lies. The situation around her death. Everything.

You ignored the lies this group made. You ignore the fact they distributed photos and lied to major news organizations who had to retract their stories. You completely ignore the founders of that groups direct quotes.

No, I *read* the quotes. I *read* your site, and it's a hack job that can't even support its own claims. The fact is they didn't say what you claim. You just can't accept that. As to the confusion over which photo was taken when, again, people should look at the photos and decide - you're clearly incompetent to judge based on your inability to critically judge sources.

My facts are sourced. Yours are not and you've ignored the multiple links and sources I've provided and segued into different arguements.

Yeah, like that site you use that still claims they found weapons in the ISM offices in Jenin. Real good sources you pick.

Hey, peace and love man. You can believe the world is flat and provide my quotes from the Haaretz Correspondent saying its right.

Sorry, you are way off here man.

We need Ganzo here. I'll email him this link, he has much more info on this crap.

So, going to admit you were wrong about not suing in Israel? Or are you too light-headed from all the bloodloss from your dick to type properly?

--R.

[Lyion]

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?BRD= ... =461&rfi=9

SEATTLE - The parents of a 23-year-old activist killed while trying to prevent the demolition of a Palestinian home have sued Caterpillar Inc., the manufacturer of the bulldozer which ran over her.

The lawsuit, filed Tuesday in U.S. District Court here, alleges that Caterpillar violated international and state law by providing specially designed bulldozers to the Israeli Defense Forces, knowing the machines would be used to demolish homes and endanger people.

Wrong about the Bulldozers. Wrong about the links. Wrong about the lawsuits. 3 strikes and you're out, lawman!
Keep up the gappiness!

Everything there still applies. But hey, keep telling yourself you were right about the different Bulldozers <bzzt> Right about the links <bzzt> and right about the lawsuit.

Please note where the LAWSUIT above is filed in the US District Court.

Keep trying to quote and paste, but everyone here knows you were off base on everything.

[Harrison]

I stopped reading his posts when I realized it is all self mastubatory bullshit that only supports his argument. When information is presented contrary to his own, he cries.