After death

[Arlos]

Yeah, we all know he does it, Vonk, and it's simply because he's incapable of actually arguing in any sort of reasonable or logical fashion. He likes to claim all this knowledge, but he obviously doesn't have it, or he wouldn't be so incapable of defending his position. I guess hope springeth eternal, cause I keep hoping that just once he would at least try. Again though, this is Mindia we're discussing, so I'm sure such hope is futile.

-Arlos

[Lyion]

I still seriously doubt he's an actual SDA or Fundamentalist. He's got to be just playing and this all has to be a game to him. At least, I really hope so.

Nobody could be that close minded and adversive to rationale debate and common sense.

[Narrock]

Trying to converse with Catholics about anything is like... Therefore, I refuse to do it anymore.

Go ahead and take this as I can't answer your stupid questions, because it will make you feel better to think so. You're just angry, especially Arlos, that I was able to think for myself and rise above the flock.

Think what you want. Believe what you want.

[Ganzo]

Can you answer those questions for me Mindia, I swear I'm not catholic, but I still want to know

[Arlos]

Mindia, ANSWER THE FUCKING QUESTION OR ADMIT YOU CAN'T. This is one of the funniest damn cop-outs I've ever read.

I'm not Catholic any more, I said this, remember? So, no worry about that!

So, explain why your sect's version of the bible is accurate, when one compiled from works from people that KNEW JESUS, OR HIS APOSTLES, IN PERSON is wrong. That's all we're asking for. If you can't answer it, it just proves that your sect is completely clueless and has no idea WTF it's talking about, just like you.

-Arlos

[Martrae]

He's buying time so he can contact his pastor, reverand, whatever for the 'approved' answer.

[brinstar]

guys this happens every single time

he's too stubborn to cede victory and too dumb to play the faith card

[Insanityfair]

You're just angry, especially Arlos, that I was able to think for myself and rise above the flock.

[Rust]

While he's dodging the question, the answer's pretty obvious since the SDA is a 'Protestant' church on the evangelical side (apart from their various heretical beliefs).

The Catholic Church formally 'decided' what the books of the Bible were at the Council of Trent. This included what are known as the Apocrypha, which include some books not part of the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible) but that were widely used in the Catholic Church, but rejected by Luther (though included in most Lutheran Bibles until aftyer WWII).

The Protestant Churches, on the other hand, from Luther on, either considered them 'useful but not really doctrinal' or 'fake'. Mindia's an SDA, and they're one of the 'these books is FAKES!!!!1!!' sects, it seems.

Given the doctrinal hatred of the SDA for the Catholic Church, and the rejection of the Apocrypha books as fakes by the SDA, Mindia's answer is in fact basically predictable. He will dismiss any Catholic position as basically a total lie, probably inspired by Satan, since the RCC is, after all the 'Whore of Babylon'. Further he's obviously going to say that only a Catholic would consider the Apocrypha anything but trash. The SDA does not consider the Roman Catholic Church to be Real Christians. Go ahead and press Mindia on THAT doctrinal point and see what he says.

--R.

[Martrae]

So the SDA is taught contempt and disdain....so much is explained now.

[Rust]

So the SDA is taught contempt and disdain....so much is explained now.

It's part of their core doctrines.

For a Catholic view of the SDA: http://www.catholic.com/library/Seventh ... entism.asp

Adventist Anti-Catholicism


As is clear from some of the beliefs listed above, Adventist theology is intensely anti-Catholic. Many Catholics who do not frequently come in contact with Adventists or their literature do not realize just how hostile they can be toward the Church.

Trying to give others the benefit of the doubt, Catholics may suppose that anti-Catholicism is part of Adventism’s radical fringe. Unfortunately, this is untrue. Adventists who are moderate on Catholicism are a minority. Anti-Catholicism characterizes the denomination because it is embraced in White’s "divinely inspired" writings. A few illustrations help indicate the scope of the problem:

"Babylon the Great, the mother of harlots . . . is further declared to be ‘that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.’ Revelation 17:4–6, 18. The power that for so many centuries maintained despotic sway over the monarchs of Christendom is Rome. The purple and scarlet color, the gold and precious stones and pearls, vividly picture the magnificence and more than kingly pomp affected by the haughty see of Rome" (The Great Controversy, 338).

"It is one of the leading doctrines of Romanism that the pope is the visible head of the universal Church of Christ . . . and has been declared infallible. He demands the homage of all men. The same claim urged by Satan in the wilderness of temptation is still urged by him [Satan] through the Church of Rome, and vast numbers are ready to yield him homage" (ibid., 48).

"Marvelous in her shrewdness and cunning is the Roman Church. She can read what is to be. She bides her time, seeing that the Protestant churches are paying her homage in their acceptance of the false Sabbath. . . . And let it be remembered, it is the boast of Rome that she never changes. The principles of Gregory VII and Innocent III are still the principles of the Roman Catholic Church. And has she but the power, she would put them in practice with as much vigor now as in past centuries. . . . Rome is aiming to reestablish her power, to recover her lost supremacy" (ibid., 507–8).

"God’s word has given warning of the impending danger; let this be unheeded, and the Protestant world will learn what the purposes of Rome really are, only when it is too late to escape the snare. She is silently growing into power. Her doctrines are exerting their influence in legislative halls, in the churches, and in the hearts of men. She is piling up her lofty and massive structures, in the secret recesses of which her former persecutions will be1 repeated. Stealthily and unsuspectedly she is strengthening her forces to further her own ends when the time shall come for her to strike. All that she desires is vantage ground, and this is already being given her. We shall soon see and shall feel what the purpose of the Roman element is. Whoever believe and obey the word of God will thereby incur reproach and persecution" ( ibid., 508–9).

Strong stuff! Unfortunately, most Adventists believe this. Bear in mind that these quotes are not taken from an obscure work of White’s that nobody ever reads. They are from what is probably her single most popular volume, The Great Controversy.

I'd love to see Mindia come in and explain how this isn't all true...

--R.

[Lyion]

This was a pretty good link on Seventh Day Adventism:

http://www.cathinsight.com/apologetics/ ... /index.htm

This one in particular made me /boggle. These aren't Christians, they are closer to cultists.

http://www.cathinsight.com/apologetics/ ... /sleep.htm

o Souls "Sleep" After Death?
What really happens when you die?

Seventh-Day Adventism teaches that when we die, we become unconscious and thus undergo a kind of "sleep" until the Last Day, when Jesus resurrects our bodies. It is not until then that we will go to Heaven or hell. And until that day, we will be unconscious and undergo what they call a "soul sleep."

What can you expect from a group that calls Ellen G Whtie a prophet and sees 666 behind every corner.

[Arlos]

I'm really not interested that much in the SDAs pissyness towards Catholics, I'm still waiting to hear his answer to my question on books in the bible. Since Ganzo's interested too, that kinda removes the leg Mindia was standing on for not answering. Not that I don't think the SDA are whacked out cultists, they are, but that's tangential to my question. I had the misfortune to go to college in Walla Walla at one point, which is SDA world HQ, so I had the unfortunate occasion to be exposed to lots of them.

-Arlos

[vonkaar]

Trying to converse with Catholics about anything is like... Therefore, I refuse to do it anymore.

Go ahead and take this as I can't answer your stupid questions, because it will make you feel better to think so. You're just angry, especially Arlos, that I was able to think for myself and rise above the flock.

Think what you want. Believe what you want.

uh oh...

we've seen that before!

Way back on March 23rd, 2004 in fact! Let's see... that's filed away under the NT Hall of Shame. The folder is "mindia gets owned, 12B part 15C subpart5 section 7."

Some day, some of you will have reached my level in your spiritual walk with Christ, and only then will you understand. Just as the Lord forgives, I too will forgive you for all your cursing and slander towards me. I will pray for you, and encourage you to open your minds and hearts, and wish you the best of luck on your spiritual journey. I have walked in most of, if not all, of your shoes, but you have not walked in mine yet. The seed of Christ's Truth has been planted... I have done my job here.
Send me a PM if you'd like to continue conversing thru emails.

Your Brother in Christ,

Erik

This was followed by a 6 month self-imposed exile.

is it just me, or does
[font=Tahoma]The seed of Christ's Truth has been planted... I have done my job here. [/font]
look an awful lot like
[font=Tahoma]I was able to think for myself and rise above the flock. Think what you want. Believe what you want.[/font]

in Mindiaspeak?

[Gypsiyee]

vonkaar just puts me in complete awe sometimes

[Diabolik]

Some day, some of you will have reached my level in your spiritual walk with Christ, and only then will you understand. Just as the Lord forgives, I too will forgive you for all your cursing and slander towards me. I will pray for you, and encourage you to open your minds and hearts, and wish you the best of luck on your spiritual journey. I have walked in most of, if not all, of your shoes, but you have not walked in mine yet. The seed of Christ's Truth has been planted... I have done my job here.
Send me a PM if you'd like to continue conversing thru emails.

Your Brother in Christ,

Erik

[Narrock]

Trying to converse with Catholics about anything is like... Therefore, I refuse to do it anymore.

Go ahead and take this as I can't answer your stupid questions, because it will make you feel better to think so. You're just angry, especially Arlos, that I was able to think for myself and rise above the flock.

Think what you want. Believe what you want.

uh oh...

we've seen that before!

Way back on March 23rd, 2004 in fact! Let's see... that's filed away under the NT Hall of Shame. The folder is "mindia gets owned, 12B part 15C subpart5 section 7."

Some day, some of you will have reached my level in your spiritual walk with Christ, and only then will you understand. Just as the Lord forgives, I too will forgive you for all your cursing and slander towards me. I will pray for you, and encourage you to open your minds and hearts, and wish you the best of luck on your spiritual journey. I have walked in most of, if not all, of your shoes, but you have not walked in mine yet. The seed of Christ's Truth has been planted... I have done my job here.
Send me a PM if you'd like to continue conversing thru emails.

Your Brother in Christ,

Erik

This was followed by a 6 month self-imposed exile.

is it just me, or does
[font=Tahoma]The seed of Christ's Truth has been planted... I have done my job here. [/font]
look an awful lot like
[font=Tahoma]I was able to think for myself and rise above the flock. Think what you want. Believe what you want.[/font]

in Mindiaspeak?

Vonk puts me in complete awe as well, at times. Someone who can sound so eloquent and knowledgeable about many different topics simply amazes me when he does things like defending the desecrations of the Roman Catholic Church of the Holy Bible.

Here's an interesting article that sums up what the Catholic Church did to the Bible:

Are these lost books of the Bible?

There is much talk these days about lost books of the Bible. From cults to the New Age, people make all sorts of claims about how the Bible is missing books, books that help justify what they hope to believe. Sometimes people claim that the Bible was edited to take out reincarnation, or the teaching of higher planes of existence, or different gods, or ancestor worship, or "at-one-ment" with nature.
The "lost books" were never lost. They were known by the Jews in Old Testament times and the Christians of the New Testament times and were never considered scripture. They weren't lost nor were they removed. They were never in the Bible in the first place.
The additional books were not included in the Bible for several reasons. They lacked apostolic or prophetic authorship, they did not claim to be the Word of God; they contain unbiblical concepts such as prayer for the dead in 2 Macc. 12:45-46; or have some serious historical inaccuracies.

Nevertheless, the Roman Catholic church has added certain books to the canon of scripture. In 1546, largely due in response to the Reformation, the Roman Catholic church authorized several more books as scripture known as the apocrypha. The word apocrypha means hidden. It is used in a general sense to describe a list of books written by Jews between 300 and 100 B.C. More specifically, it is used of the 7 additional books accepted by the Catholic church as being inspired. The entire list of books of the apocrypha are: 1 and 2 Esdras, Tobit, Judith, the Rest of Esther, the Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach, (also titled Ecclesiasticus), Baruch, The Letter of Jeremiah, Song of the Three Young Men, Susanna, Bel and the Dragon, The Additions to Daniel, The Prayer of Manasseh, and 1 and 2 Maccabees. The books accepted as inspired and included in the Catholic Bible are Tobit, Judith, 1 and 2 Maccabees Wisdom of Solomon Sirach (also known as Ecclesiasticus), and Baruch
The Pseudepigraphal books are "false writings." They are a collection of early Jewish and "Christian" writings composed between 200 BC and AD 200. However, they too were known and were never considered scripture.
The deuterocanonical (apocrypha) books are those books that were included in the Greek Septuagint (LXX) but not included in the Hebrew Bible. The recognized deuterocanonical books are "Tobit, Judith, Wisdom of Solomon, Ecclesiasticus (also called Sirach or Ben Sira), Baruch (including the Letter of Jeremiah), 1 and 2 Maccabees, and additions to the books of Esther and Daniel. The canon of the Greek Orthodox community also includes 1 Esdras, the Prayer of Manasseh, Psalm 151, and 3 Maccabees, with 4 Maccabees as an appendix."1

______________
1. Achtemeier, Paul J., Th.D., Harper’s Bible Dictionary, (San Francisco: Harper and Row, Publishers, Inc.) 1985.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------





But, the inevitability of catholics on the NT discounting Achtemeier's credibility is certain.

[Narrock]

Yeah go to a Catholic website to learn about Adventism. That way you're sure to get an unbiased response.

Thank you Rust. You are now the official king of cut & paste website propaganda on the NT. Show us more of how much you know about the SDA church.

You, Arlos, and Vonktaard are on a roll. :P

[10sun]

Mindia,

Do you feel you represent all Seventh Day Adventists?
Do you feel you represent all Protestants?
Do you feel you represent all Christians?

Do you embrace the SDA tenants?

Do you present yourself in the manner that you wish all Christans wish to be presented?

I am curious how you view yourself and your peers?

-Adam

[Narrock]

Mindia,

Do you feel you represent all Seventh Day Adventists?
Do you feel you represent all Protestants?
Do you feel you represent all Christians?

Do you embrace the SDA tenants?

Do you present yourself in the manner that you wish all Christans wish to be presented?

I am curious how you view yourself and your peers?

-Adam

I represent myself. After careful Biblical analysis and study of various Christian Denominations it is quite clear to me that the SDA church teaches closest to what the Bible teaches us. It is easy to see, and easy to understand. That is how I view myself. No, I don't represent all Christians. Catholics are Christians too, right? I also don't represent all Protestants either. If most of the Protestant churches out there would start holding their worship services on the Sabbath then I would view them in a more respectful light. Remember... I grew up in the Lutheran church, and then left it.

I would like more people to actually study the Bible so they can learn the truth. I would like people to take a critical look at some of their sect's doctrine and practices, and question them.

Christians who embrace and support same-sex marriage, abortion, and a whole myriad of other controversial subjects do not understand Chritianity, and they certainly do not understand the teachings of Jesus Christ.



How about you Adam? Answer those same questions about yourself.

[10sun]

I don't make claims about being a Christian.

I follow a morale path with understanding and humility.

I do not presume to understand a man who lived two thousand years ago, spoke another language, and taught words that have been translated many times over.

I do not try to hide my bigotry with religious pretenses.

Now, answer my first question.

Do you feel you represent all Seventh Day Adventists?

[brinstar]

I represent myself.

i think this means we're supposed to believe that not all christians are as arrogant, juvenile, and misguided as mindia is

sort of like "the opinions expressed in this program do not necessarily reflect the opinions of this station"

[Narrock]

No I do not feel that I represent all Seventh-Day Adventists. Many SDA's believe that people should be vegetarian. Many SDA's believe that Ellen G. White was a prophet. Many SDA's (especially on the east coast) do not wear wedding bands... they are more legalistic on the east coast. So, what point are you so cleverly trying to make here?

[Narrock]

I represent myself.

i think this means we're supposed to believe that not all christians are as arrogant, juvenile, and misguided as mindia is

sort of like "the opinions expressed in this program do not necessarily reflect the opinions of this station"

That was stupid.

Stick with your Tao of Pooh.

[Diabolik]

<a href="http://www.namelesstavern.org/phpBB2/album_page.php?pic_id=509">Someone says stfu</a>