After death

[Stabfase]

My God is Jesus Christ.

who?

[Narrock]

My God is Jesus Christ.

who?

Jesus Christ of Nazareth, born to Joseph and Mary 2005 years ago, and the only person ever born of an immaculate conception.

[Narrock]

I see the poll is still at 3 votes for Purgatory. I asked many pages ago of those who believe in Purgatory to explain why they believe in a Purgatory. Maybe you can teach me, and show me in the Bible where it talks about a Purgatory, because I've never read anything about Purgatory in the Bible. You might have to go outside of the Bible and refer to a book in the Apocrypha, no?

Anyway, I'm just curious about this whole Purgatory business.

[Langston]

Mindia... I'm only going to say one thing: You put a tremendous amount of faith in something written, translated, and passed down by HUMANS. Not only do you put faith in it, you exclude ANY other potential source of information or belief. A man who limits his sources of knowledge only prevents himself from learning.

Although, it's nice to see you finally truly admiting completely to your espousal of the Seventh Day Adventists. We all knew it, and your previous denials were rather humorous.

[Langston]

Mindia - I have two followup questions for you:

If you believe ONLY in the Bible... then anything that isn't explicitly stated in the Bible isn't true? Regarding Jesus, I mean... obviously.

Also, you believe that God wrote the Bible through ... whoever. Right?

[Diabolik]

Jesus Christ of Nazareth, born to Joseph and Mary 2005 years ago, and the only person ever born of an immaculate conception.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_Conception

[Gidan]

You will not find the word "Purgatory" in the bible, of course there are many things you will not find in the bible. I am not surprised you dont know of purgatory, its not a christian beleif.

Purgatory is the place where those who will be allowed to enter heven are purified as there can be no sin in heven. It is suported by passages such as

Revelation 21:27
"Nothing inpure will ever enter it. nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of Life."

This states that nothing impure will ever entire the gates of heven. Therefor any sin of any kind closes the gates to you.


Corinthians 3:15
"If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."

In heven there is no pain, in hell there is no escape. Therefore you must be escaping from someplace. Its commonly beleive that its the fires of purgatory that they are escaping.

Mommy look, I can quote the bible too

[Diabolik]

While we're on this.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_Reception

[Gidan]

I will join in on that

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purgatory

[Stabfase]

Tom Clancy should have written the bible.

[Gidan]

If Tom Clancy wrote the bible it would be 3x as long. He has got to be one of the most long winded writers I have ever read. He does write great books though.

[Gypsiyee]

You know.. I've known some stubborn people in my time, but you sure take the cake.

People, granted not all, have addressed you with logical questions and very drawn out posts trying to calmly explain their viewpoints. Gidan, for example, tried to express his views on your stance without attacking you, and you respond with "who are you?" proving your lack of knowledge and your knee jerk oh shit I'm out of answers logic even more.

What you need to realize is your "knowledge" is not truth. Did you see Jesus walk the earth? Did he personally tell you everything, word for word? Of course he didn't, unless you're a psycho fruitcake with visions, which I wouldn't doubt.

The fact of the matter is that if you would just respond to people respectfully and accept the fact that you might not have all the answers and that you're not always right, people MIGHT give 2 shits about what you say. People will never give 2 shits about what you say so long as your first response is to ridicule them for not being you, however.

You come off to people as an insecure pompous asshole who has no clue what he's talking about and pulls shit out of his ass and resorts to namecalling when he runs out of his so called "knowledge." You act overly defensive because you just aren't sure about things - and with your self image of knowing everything, being unsure frightens the shit out of you. Newsflash for you, NO ONE is sure about ANYTHING in religion, no matter how sure they think they are. Unless you lived in that timeframe, you can't possibly know all the facts.

The sooner you accept that, the sooner you'll be accepting of other people and the sooner you won't be looked at as a joke. That's all you are to people anymore.. a sad, insecure joke. Lyion has defended you countless times, but oh shit, he's studied Catholicism, he must be a bullshit liar.

I just don't know where you get off relentlessly insulting people you know nothing about then claiming to be Jesus's #1 fan. I don't claim to know all Lyion or Arlos know.. I haven't spent years researching the bible.. but neither have you. At least I know I'm not perfect.. you seem to think you're the friggin 2nd coming.

[Stabfase]

If Tom Clancy wrote the bible it would be 3x as long. He has got to be one of the most long winded writers I have ever read. He does write great books though.

The point i was trying to make was, he's a good fiction writer

[labbats]

I wish I believed every thing that I read.

No I don't.

I don't believe I just typed that.

But I did.

[Martrae]

Jesus Christ of Nazareth, born to Joseph and Mary 2005 years ago, and the only person ever born of an immaculate conception.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_Conception

Whoa...that's a RC belief!!!! That can't be right!!!

[Diabolik]

Not only is it a Roman Catholic belief, he uses it in the wrong context (as if we needed more proof of his idiocy, but still...).

[Rust]

Jesus Christ of Nazareth, born to Joseph and Mary 2005 years ago, and the only person ever born of an immaculate conception.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_Conception

Not to mention the odds of Jesus being born 2005 years ago are about nil. Out by a few years almost certainly.

--R.

[Narrock]

You will not find the word "Purgatory" in the bible, of course there are many things you will not find in the bible. I am not surprised you dont know of purgatory, its not a christian beleif.

Purgatory is the place where those who will be allowed to enter heven are purified as there can be no sin in heven. It is suported by passages such as

Revelation 21:27
"Nothing inpure will ever enter it. nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of Life."

This states that nothing impure will ever entire the gates of heven. Therefor any sin of any kind closes the gates to you.


Corinthians 3:15
"If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."

In heven there is no pain, in hell there is no escape. Therefore you must be escaping from someplace. Its commonly beleive that its the fires of purgatory that they are escaping.

Mommy look, I can quote the bible too

Bolded for appropriateness. All I see in that is that there's a heaven and hell, no "inbetween" state... but if that's what you want to read into it, ok.

[Narrock]

Mindia... I'm only going to say one thing: You put a tremendous amount of faith in something written, translated, and passed down by HUMANS. Not only do you put faith in it, you exclude ANY other potential source of information or belief. A man who limits his sources of knowledge only prevents himself from learning.

Although, it's nice to see you finally truly admiting completely to your espousal of the Seventh Day Adventists. We all knew it, and your previous denials were rather humorous.

Where have you been? I said from the beginning that I believe the SDA church to teach closest to what the Bible teaches. hello mcfly. There were never any denials.

[Narrock]

You know.. I've known some stubborn people in my time, but you sure take the cake.

People, granted not all, have addressed you with logical questions and very drawn out posts trying to calmly explain their viewpoints. Gidan, for example, tried to express his views on your stance without attacking you, and you respond with "who are you?" proving your lack of knowledge and your knee jerk oh shit I'm out of answers logic even more.

What you need to realize is your "knowledge" is not truth. Did you see Jesus walk the earth? Did he personally tell you everything, word for word? Of course he didn't, unless you're a psycho fruitcake with visions, which I wouldn't doubt.

The fact of the matter is that if you would just respond to people respectfully and accept the fact that you might not have all the answers and that you're not always right, people MIGHT give 2 shits about what you say. People will never give 2 shits about what you say so long as your first response is to ridicule them for not being you, however.

You come off to people as an insecure pompous asshole who has no clue what he's talking about and pulls shit out of his ass and resorts to namecalling when he runs out of his so called "knowledge." You act overly defensive because you just aren't sure about things - and with your self image of knowing everything, being unsure frightens the shit out of you. Newsflash for you, NO ONE is sure about ANYTHING in religion, no matter how sure they think they are. Unless you lived in that timeframe, you can't possibly know all the facts.

The sooner you accept that, the sooner you'll be accepting of other people and the sooner you won't be looked at as a joke. That's all you are to people anymore.. a sad, insecure joke. Lyion has defended you countless times, but oh shit, he's studied Catholicism, he must be a bullshit liar.

I just don't know where you get off relentlessly insulting people you know nothing about then claiming to be Jesus's #1 fan. I don't claim to know all Lyion or Arlos know.. I haven't spent years researching the bible.. but neither have you. At least I know I'm not perfect.. you seem to think you're the friggin 2nd coming.

[Narrock]

Jesus Christ of Nazareth, born to Joseph and Mary 2005 years ago, and the only person ever born of an immaculate conception.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_Conception

Not to mention the odds of Jesus being born 2005 years ago are about nil. Out by a few years almost certainly.

--R.

Sez the Theologian Rust.

[Rust]

Jesus Christ of Nazareth, born to Joseph and Mary 2005 years ago, and the only person ever born of an immaculate conception.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_Conception

Not to mention the odds of Jesus being born 2005 years ago are about nil. Out by a few years almost certainly.

--R.

Sez the Theologian Rust.

Look at any historical analysis.

Wikipedia's article on Christ's birth:

The Gospels are problematic, because they offer two accounts that chronologists find incompatible. Matthew states that Jesus was born while Herod the Great was still alive and that Herod ordered the slaughter of infants two years old and younger (Matt. 2:16). However, the Jewish historian Josephus reports a lunar eclipse shortly before the death of Herod. Astronomers have pinpointed that eclipse to the year 4 BC, which would imply that Herod died in that year as well (contra Dionysius Exiguus). Thus, many chronologists conclude that the year 6 BC is the most likely year of Jesus' birth. Consequently, Jesus would have been about four to six years old in the year AD 1.

On the other hand, Luke's account places Jesus' birth during a census conducted under the governorship of Quirinius, who, according to Josephus, conducted a census in AD 6. In order to reconcile the two Gospel accounts, some have suggested that Josephus was mistaken, that Quirinius had a separate period of rule under Herod, or that Josephus reported the date of completion of the census. In any case, the actual date of his birth remains historically unverifiable.

In recent years, East Asian historians have attempted to match the birth of Jesus with special events in their history. They found that, according to the oldest record of the Comet Halley during the Han Dynasty, "The comet heads east with its tail pointing west at night, and was appearing in the sky for more than 70 days" in 6 BC. This has been suggested as an independent record of the "Star" described in Matthew 2. If accepted, this suggestion would place the birthday of Jesus in summer rather than winter. Modern astronomers calculate the closest date for periheliion of Halley's comet was October of 12 BC.

In the 6th century, Dionysius Exiguus proposed to make the birth of Jesus the basis of the calendar but he miscalculated the death of Herod. Years reckoned in this way are labeled "BC" and "AD", which stand for Before Christ and Anno Domini (meaning "in the year of the Lord" in Latin).

It was a Roman Catholic who calculated the dates anyhow Mindia...

--R.

[Langston]

Mindia - I asked you a couple of very simple questions. Could you answer them please?

[Narrock]

Mindia - I have two followup questions for you:

If you believe ONLY in the Bible... then anything that isn't explicitly stated in the Bible isn't true? Regarding Jesus, I mean... obviously.

Also, you believe that God wrote the Bible through ... whoever. Right?

To answer your first question... No, I don't believe in only the Bible. I believe in other people and works too, such as Martin Luther to name one. I also believe that Ellen G. White was filled with the Holy Spirit and has written books to help people understand scripture better, and has led many people to Christ. I don't think of her as a prophet though.

Yes, I believe that the Bible was written by holy men, or men filled with the Holy Spirit. I also believe that Martin Luther removed the books the books of the Apocrypha from the "Bible" under divine influence.

I know what you're trying to get at, but... before you go jumping up and down with glee thinking that you've cornered me or "owned" me somehow, don't forget this:

"There is much talk these days about lost books of the Bible. From cults to the New Age, people make all sorts of claims about how the Bible is missing books, books that help justify what they hope to believe. Sometimes people claim that the Bible was edited to take out reincarnation, or the teaching of higher planes of existence, or different gods, or ancestor worship, or "at-one-ment" with nature.
The "lost books" were never lost. They were known by the Jews in Old Testament times and the Christians of the New Testament times and were never considered scripture. They weren't lost nor were they removed. They were never in the Bible in the first place.
The additional books were not included in the Bible for several reasons. They lacked apostolic or prophetic authorship, they did not claim to be the Word of God; they contain unbiblical concepts such as prayer for the dead in 2 Macc. 12:45-46; or have some serious historical inaccuracies.
Nevertheless, the Roman Catholic church has added certain books to the canon of scripture. In 1546, largely due in response to the Reformation, the Roman Catholic church authorized several more books as scripture known as the apocrypha. The word apocrypha means hidden. It is used in a general sense to describe a list of books written by Jews between 300 and 100 B.C. More specifically, it is used of the 7 additional books accepted by the Catholic church as being inspired. The entire list of books of the apocrypha are: 1 and 2 Esdras, Tobit, Judith, the Rest of Esther, the Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach, (also titled Ecclesiasticus), Baruch, The Letter of Jeremiah, Song of the Three Young Men, Susanna, Bel and the Dragon, The Additions to Daniel, The Prayer of Manasseh, and 1 and 2 Maccabees. The books accepted as inspired and included in the Catholic Bible are Tobit, Judith, 1 and 2 Maccabees Wisdom of Solomon Sirach (also known as Ecclesiasticus), and Baruch
The Pseudepigraphal books are "false writings." They are a collection of early Jewish and "Christian" writings composed between 200 BC and AD 200. However, they too were known and were never considered scripture.
The deuterocanonical (apocrypha) books are those books that were included in the Greek Septuagint (LXX) but not included in the Hebrew Bible. The recognized deuterocanonical books are "Tobit, Judith, Wisdom of Solomon, Ecclesiasticus (also called Sirach or Ben Sira), Baruch (including the Letter of Jeremiah), 1 and 2 Maccabees, and additions to the books of Esther and Daniel. The canon of the Greek Orthodox community also includes 1 Esdras, the Prayer of Manasseh, Psalm 151, and 3 Maccabees, with 4 Maccabees as an appendix."

[Langston]

Mindia - I have two followup questions for you:

If you believe ONLY in the Bible... then anything that isn't explicitly stated in the Bible isn't true? Regarding Jesus, I mean... obviously.

Also, you believe that God wrote the Bible through ... whoever. Right?

To answer your first question... No, I don't believe in only the Bible. I believe in other people and works too, such as Martin Luther to name one. I also believe that Ellen G. White was filled with the Holy Spirit and has written books to help people understand scripture better, and has led many people to Christ. I don't think of her as a prophet though.

Yes, I believe that the Bible was written by holy men, or men filled with the Holy Spirit. I also believe that Martin Luther removed the books the books of the Apocrypha from the "Bible" under divine influence.

I know what you're trying to get at, but... before you go jumping up and down with glee thinking that you've cornered me or "owned" me somehow, don't forget this:

OK, if you don't believe in ONLY the Bible, then you admit that the Bible is not the "end all, be all" for Christian guidance. You admit you follow the "teachings" of two others (Martin Luther and Ellen White). By doing so, you lose your grounds for claiming (as you do often and vehemently) that if something isn't in the Bible then it's not FACT. You are hereby refuted and any further arguments of something not being "scriptural" are void. You can't have your cake and eat it, too, meaning that you can't have your non-Biblical sources of God's word and deny others the right to do the same when all you have to base your OPINION on is your particular faith and beliefs. Until you can PROVE them wrong, you have no room to tell people that their beliefs are false since they aren't written specifically in the Bible.

As far as the authors of the Bible go, if God truly guided the hands of those who wrote the Bible, how do you explain the inaccuracies (both scientific and historical - which have been proven so don't deny they exist) and the contradictions (which also exist, plentifully... don't try to deny these exist as well)? If God is truly leading Man in the authoring of His Word, then wouldn't God know what he already has instructed to be written - or at the very least - know not to contradict himself? Wouldn't he also know the Truth as is stands to easily researched and proven scientific/historical events/concepts? The simple fact that the Bible is littered with such errors leads many to believe that the Bible is the work of men, not God - or that God is somehow unable to remember what he has already commissioned to be written or events that have occured. or that God doesn't understand simple science.

How do you answer this?

Next time, don't assume I'm trying to trap you into something as narrow as the inclusion of the Apocrypha... your statements have much larger holes in them than something so small as that.