so wtf is up with this, you tell me

[Tossica]

What the fuck are you two dipshits talking about!?

[Captain Insano]

For as much as I hate to admit Mindia hit the nail on the head.

Sitting around with a flock of retards hooting and hollering "ya ya ya" doesn't make you any more correct than the guy sitting alone saying the world is flat.

hahaha the world IS flat you cocksnorkeler!1 LOL

[Narrock]

cocksnorkeler!

HAHAHAHA

[Trielelvan]

That being said, once you have already accepted that a "soul" is not only plausible but that it actually exists as described, then I can see how it would be easy to accept that things you can't immediately explain must be ghosts.

I'd like to add that simply believing in having a soul does not = easy to accept ghosts. You don't automatically explain away things that happen as paranormal. You always look for the most reasonable explanations.

For example, you keep resetting the thermostat to 72. Everyday, when you come home from work, it's set to 99. You change it back.
On your day off, you periodically check to make sure the thermostat is still set correctly. Then, as you pass it in the hallway in the evening, its bumped up to 99 again. You are the only one in the house.
You call an electrician. They can find no problem, but replace the wiring and the digital thermostat with a manual one anyway.
In the weeks to follow, the same thing keeps happening over and over again. Despite the fact that the lever has to be moved manually, it keeps getting set to 99.
Then, you come home to the oven turned on. Naturally, you think "doh, must have left it on last time I used it." You turn it off. You come home, and it's on again. The dial is turned. It is a round manual dial that takes a bit of turning to get it to move, aka: not one you can just bump.
Then, the back left burner starts turning on. It's also a round manual dial.
So now, all 3 things are happening daily.
You have called electricians and all other various types of repairmen, you have replaced wiring, gas pipes, knobs, and meticulously cleaned everything to make sure nothing is snagging.
You also notice that your dog has taken to cowering and crying in front of one particular bedroom door and won't step inside that room.
Then, the TV starts having issues - you turn it off, and it turns back on and the volume goes all the way up. You turn it down, but it keeps going back up. You can see it going up on the on-screen volume tracker on the TV. You unplug the TV, it goes off. You plug it back in, and it turns on by itself.
Ok, TV goes to the repair shop. They find nothing wrong. You buy a new TV. After a week, the same thing happens, then suddenly stops.
One day, when you are home by yourself, you walk into the kitchen to go make some lunch, come back into the living room, and the sofa has been turned backwards, facing the wall. You turn it around and start yelling for one of your friends to come out of hiding, thinking someone came over while you weren't looking. But there isn't anyone there, and the dogs would have barked anyway had anyone come in. After a few hours, you get up and go to the bathroom, come back to the livingroom, and the sofa is turned, facing the wall again. You search the whole house, pretty sure that the dogs didn't turn the couch, but can find no one.
The piece de resistance to all the shenanigans is when you get a phone call from a relative telling you they are coming over. Your significant other had walked into the bedroom, so you yell their name. They respond, "Yeah?" You say that so-and-so is coming over and will be there in about 15 minutes. They respond, "Ok." Then, 5 minutes later, your significant other comes walking out of the bedroom in only underwear.
"What the hell are you doing? So-and-so is going to be here any minute!"
Your mate responds with, "Well how the hell was I supposed to know?"
You say, "I just told you a minute ago when I got off the phone. You answered me - did you just forget?"
Your mate tells you, "Uh, I didn't hear you say anything - I've been in the bathroom with the fan on taking a dump."
You walk into the bathroom, and sure enough from the smell, and the warm toilet seat, your better half was indeed in there having taken a dump, and is bewilderingly annoyed that you didn't come knock on the door to give the message about the relative's near arrival. No TV or radio had been on. The house was relatively quiet. You clearly heard your significant other answer and respond to you, yet apparently, they had not.

Now, let's say that you have been doing this for over a year, and despite your best attempts to correct wiring problems, changing the layout of the furniture, pipes, switches, breakers, fuses, and all other manner of possible problems, the same things keep happening over and over again. You have now basically had the house gutted through, only to find that there are no problems, and yet, the same things keep happening with new additions once in a while.

Now would you call ghostbusters?

[exploit]

I hope the ghost kills you.

[Tossica]

Now would you call ghostbusters?

No, I'd call the state hospital because you have obviously lost your mind.

[Harrison]

Trielelvan, you're preaching to the deaf.

If someone else can't explain it for them they ignore it. (while in the same swing with the ignorance bat, they will try to hit you on the way to their own head)

[Narrock]

That being said, once you have already accepted that a "soul" is not only plausible but that it actually exists as described, then I can see how it would be easy to accept that things you can't immediately explain must be ghosts.

I'd like to add that simply believing in having a soul does not = easy to accept ghosts. You don't automatically explain away things that happen as paranormal. You always look for the most reasonable explanations.

For example, you keep resetting the thermostat to 72. Everyday, when you come home from work, it's set to 99. You change it back.
On your day off, you periodically check to make sure the thermostat is still set correctly. Then, as you pass it in the hallway in the evening, its bumped up to 99 again. You are the only one in the house.
You call an electrician. They can find no problem, but replace the wiring and the digital thermostat with a manual one anyway.
In the weeks to follow, the same thing keeps happening over and over again. Despite the fact that the lever has to be moved manually, it keeps getting set to 99.
Then, you come home to the oven turned on. Naturally, you think "doh, must have left it on last time I used it." You turn it off. You come home, and it's on again. The dial is turned. It is a round manual dial that takes a bit of turning to get it to move, aka: not one you can just bump.
Then, the back left burner starts turning on. It's also a round manual dial.
So now, all 3 things are happening daily.
You have called electricians and all other various types of repairmen, you have replaced wiring, gas pipes, knobs, and meticulously cleaned everything to make sure nothing is snagging.
You also notice that your dog has taken to cowering and crying in front of one particular bedroom door and won't step inside that room.
Then, the TV starts having issues - you turn it off, and it turns back on and the volume goes all the way up. You turn it down, but it keeps going back up. You can see it going up on the on-screen volume tracker on the TV. You unplug the TV, it goes off. You plug it back in, and it turns on by itself.
Ok, TV goes to the repair shop. They find nothing wrong. You buy a new TV. After a week, the same thing happens, then suddenly stops.
One day, when you are home by yourself, you walk into the kitchen to go make some lunch, come back into the living room, and the sofa has been turned backwards, facing the wall. You turn it around and start yelling for one of your friends to come out of hiding, thinking someone came over while you weren't looking. But there isn't anyone there, and the dogs would have barked anyway had anyone come in. After a few hours, you get up and go to the bathroom, come back to the livingroom, and the sofa is turned, facing the wall again. You search the whole house, pretty sure that the dogs didn't turn the couch, but can find no one.
The piece de resistance to all the shenanigans is when you get a phone call from a relative telling you they are coming over. Your significant other had walked into the bedroom, so you yell their name. They respond, "Yeah?" You say that so-and-so is coming over and will be there in about 15 minutes. They respond, "Ok." Then, 5 minutes later, your significant other comes walking out of the bedroom in only underwear.
"What the hell are you doing? So-and-so is going to be here any minute!"
Your mate responds with, "Well how the hell was I supposed to know?"
You say, "I just told you a minute ago when I got off the phone. You answered me - did you just forget?"
Your mate tells you, "Uh, I didn't hear you say anything - I've been in the bathroom with the fan on taking a dump."
You walk into the bathroom, and sure enough from the smell, and the warm toilet seat, your better half was indeed in there having taken a dump, and is bewilderingly annoyed that you didn't come knock on the door to give the message about the relative's near arrival. No TV or radio had been on. The house was relatively quiet. You clearly heard your significant other answer and respond to you, yet apparently, they had not.

Now, let's say that you have been doing this for over a year, and despite your best attempts to correct wiring problems, changing the layout of the furniture, pipes, switches, breakers, fuses, and all other manner of possible problems, the same things keep happening over and over again. You have now basically had the house gutted through, only to find that there are no problems, and yet, the same things keep happening with new additions once in a while.

Now would you call ghostbusters?

Call a pastor over to your house to rid it of the demons that may be present there, unless of course you're an atheist. Also stop playing with your ouija board and tarot cards or anything else like that.

[Trielelvan]

Now would you call ghostbusters?

No, I'd call the state hospital because you have obviously lost your mind.

LOL It's ok. I still <3 you.

Nah Harrison, was just curious to see what kind of response would come of it is all. See, regarding those who are completely unbelieving in such things, you will always get one of 2 responses.
a) you're lying
b) you're nuts

Even when faced with a situation in which it appears that everything possible has been done, there must still be a reasonable scientific explanation that just has not yet been discovered. I can understand that.
Regarding the situation I described above, the question is, what more would it take for one to accept the possibility that there might be something paranormal at work? Someone made a statement about "giving up" and "accepting" - what about giving up and accepting that you are crazy, even though you are sure you are not? Admitting that you must be losing your mind - doesn't that also count as "giving up?" You are admitting to something that is beyond your control, be it paranormal, or mental. Either way, you are devoiding yourself of further investigation by way of a possible solution.

Yes, I am stirring up trouble.

[Tossica]

That is all really amazing Triel but really, if this shit happens all the time to people, I don't think it's too much to ask to see one piece of evidence that isn't a person's "eye witness" account. Just one REAL video of a couch turning itself around or a video camera focused on the thermostat dial while the dial magically spins around. One place in the world where "skeptics" can go to witness real life apparitions, poltergeists, etc on a regular basis.

Everyone has great ghost stories to tell but not a single person has even the smallest amount of proof of what they saw/heard or what the think they saw/heard.

[Trielelvan]

Call a pastor over to your house to rid it of the demons that may be present there, unless of course you're an atheist. Also stop playing with your ouija board and tarot cards or anything else like that.

What if there were no ouija boards, tarot cards, or anything even remotely pagan in the home? For your sake, let's say we're talking about a good Christian husband and wife. What if the paster was called over and he was able to do nothing?

[Trielelvan]

That is all really amazing Triel but really, if this shit happens all the time to people, I don't think it's too much to ask to see one piece of evidence that isn't a person's "eye witness" account. Just one REAL video of a couch turning itself around or a video camera focused on the thermostat dial while the dial magically spins around. One place in the world where "skeptics" can go to witness real life apparitions, poltergeists, etc on a regular basis.

Everyone has great ghost stories to tell but not a single person has even the smallest amount of proof of what they saw/heard or what the think they saw/heard.

And would you believe it if you really saw it with your own eyes and be able to accept it for what it was? Or would you be certain that is was a trick?

[Tossica]

Triel,

If you had come here and said, "Last night, while I was sitting on the couch watching TV, it levitated off the ground by it's own power, rotated and slid up against the wall, with me still on it"!!, I would have called you a liar.

The fact that you did not physically witness the couch moving around the room leaves enough doubt in my mind for me to feel VERY confident that it was not a ghost that did it.

[Tossica]

And would you believe it if you really saw it with your own eyes and be able to accept it for what it was? Or would you be certain that is was a trick?

If the situation with the couch that I described above, happened to me, I would believe that something beyond modern scientific explanation had happened. It would still not be a ghost though. Sorry. No such thing.

[Trielelvan]

Now see, THAT is exactly what I was getting at!
Ok, so if it's not a ghost, what would it be? What could have done it? What if while the couch was moving around, you saw an apparition at the end of the couch doing it? Then would you believe it was a ghost?
As far as not seeing the couch move, if you are the only one home, no one else is around, it took all of a minute to grab a sandwich, you heard no noise at all, and the couch is turned around (let's say a 10 foot long oak sofa), and nothing else appears to have been touched, then what would your explanation be as to what did it?

.... I think I need to stop this now. This could go on for a while. I am heavily drugged up on flu medication and am feeling quite loopy. I'm not sure where my head is, but I'm pretty sure it's about a foot or 2 above me somewhere, or at least it feels like it.

[Narrock]

That is all really amazing Triel but really, if this shit happens all the time to people, I don't think it's too much to ask to see one piece of evidence that isn't a person's "eye witness" account. Just one REAL video of a couch turning itself around or a video camera focused on the thermostat dial while the dial magically spins around. One place in the world where "skeptics" can go to witness real life apparitions, poltergeists, etc on a regular basis.

Everyone has great ghost stories to tell but not a single person has even the smallest amount of proof of what they saw/heard or what the think they saw/heard.

And would you believe it if you really saw it with your own eyes and be able to accept it for what it was? Or would you be certain that is was a trick?

The power of Christ will overpower any evil in the house... so your point is moot, sorry to say.

[Martrae]

That would really depend on how strongly the pastor believed.

My cousin's family had their house blessed 3 times before the weird stuff stopped happening there.

[Lyion]

The real reason Vonk doesn't want you talking about ghosts can be explained in this picture of him I took while visiting Dallas last week

[vonkaar]

HOLY FUCKING HELL FINAWIN, ARE YOU A ROBOT? I can't believe you would do this for the 300th time since I started this new NT.

Holy fuck it's entertaining to watch self proclaimed "intelligent" people completely shut their brains off and spout off a bunch of ignorant bullshit.

We'll call this the "finawin" non-opinion. That's pretty much textbook finawinizing. He watches a debate with his KFC and calls people his favorite IG word.

Hiding behind the guise of being "scientists" yet saying some of the most ignorant shit I've ever seen.

Next, someone shows up and champions Finawin - says what he could not perhaps. The fact that MINDIA showed up in a paranormal discussion shouldn't surprise anyone...

Run-on sentence#301, but it emphasizes what Finawin wished he could have said... if only:love:

Followed by... holy... fucking... lord... another god-damned kiss-ass, "OMG, That's what I WANTED TO SAY!!!"

Mindia hit the nail on the head.

I can't believe you did this... again. Can you not fucking think for yourself? Holy fuck.

For starters... Tossica and I have argued two completely seperate points. He's arguing the merits OF the evidence while I'm arguing the automatic concluding assumption. Where are the "ya ya ya's?" He and I haven't even mentioned the other's points in our responses... I don't see any "owned!!" posts... I didn't see any whining about posting style until you cockpumps from the bleachers decided to jump in with your non-points. The discussion *was* focused on the argument at hand. So... um... I'll quote Tossica here in saying, "what the fuck are you two dipshits talking about?"

Go back and read my posts again and show me where I'm being, omg, ignorant. I'd love to know.

So... can we get back to the point of this debate? At the moment, I'm only able to post during 9-5'ish hours... if ya'll are wondering why I'm not posting so often. I never saw a reply to my last post...

I am saying that this is the explanation after scienece fails. see my point? Anything that cannot be explained to your liking should just be ignored?

Nope, but you don't "give up" and reference something which cannot be proven.

Otherwise... you should take no offense in my lumping you in with the Neanderthals. When the science of their time 'failed' (read: was insufficient), they attributed things to JuJu. You are doing the exact same thing, but seem to take serious offense in the similarities.

If I said that *I*, Mike Galloway, am responsible for every single paranormal activity that you've ever seen... it should be just as plausible as your dumbfounded belief that Ghosts caused them. You can't prove either, so... why not Leprechauns or homosexual flower people from Mars?

So... can I get a response from the 'participating members' of this discussion?

I like where Triel was going... that's a nice segue. I'll quote for simplicity... and because I just love me some BBCode!

Even when faced with a situation in which it appears that everything possible has been done, there must still be a reasonable scientific explanation that just has not yet been discovered. I can understand that.
Regarding the situation I described above, the question is, what more would it take for one to accept the possibility that there might be something paranormal at work?

That last part was the best point 'your camp' has made all day. My answer: I don't know. I've never had any first-hand experiences that would lead me to immediately look to ghosts or JuJu as an explanation. I've known people who swear by those testimonies, but they are ALWAYS, without fail, the religious nutjob type... or obsessed with the 'paranormal'. If I heard something like that from a 'respected' opinion, my own opinion might shift.

[Gypsiyee]

The thing is.. none of this is a matter of ignorance or anyone being an idiot or whatever other insults one may spew.

Nothing has been proven by fact. It's likely that nothing will be in the near future. Without fact, you have this nutty thing called opinion. When one has opinion there is no such thing as right or wrong, only opposing opinions.

It is opinion that spirits are either brought in by witchcraft or other devil work. It is opinion that crazy energy throwing things across rooms and whatnot is without a doubt ghosts. It is opinion that anyone who believes in spirits is crazy. It is also opinion that one day that is yet to be determined, science will disprove all theories of ghosts.

Any claims of ignorance is ignorance in itself, because in something where there is no possible way to determine fact, no one can technically be wrong.

[vonkaar]

check this out, I'll finawinize:
Yeah, what she said.

[The Kizzy]

Trie, we used to have the same problem with our thermostat, and it freaked me out, turns out (I found out from talking to Paul) that is is the vibrations that you make when you walk through your house. Get an electronic thermostat, and you wioll be all set.

[Adivina]

Trie, we used to have the same problem with our thermostat, and it freaked me out, turns out (I found out from talking to Paul) that is is the vibrations that you make when you walk through your house. Get an electronic thermostat, and you wioll be all set.

That is really strange, you wouldn't think such little vibrations would do that.

[kaharthemad]

There is no two camps here. Frankly I could give two tenths of a shit what you believe and what you dont believe. Araby had asked me a question to which I answered to the best of my ability. It was then that the two Dr. Who's decided to turn this into a great cursade to bash anyone and everyone that did not kowtow to their own way of thinking.


Lets take a look at how your science explains things shall we?

If we get into the 'science' of things a popular physics theory(when it is practiced science it is ok to use theory and not be able to puke up a solution to a hypothesis 30 years later) that comes to mind is that all things are connected at a base level. The therom (pardon me it has been a few years) stipulates that all things are connected. In other words what ever effects a charge particle anywhere in the universe effects everything in the universe. This is what is being studied at universities as well a basis for alot of study in major think tanks. So in your own skewed view point science screams boojum and you say "uh huh yeah I believe that".

This is one therom but there are about 100 more theroms which all known science is based on. However the fact is they can not explain the base of which the core of science is founded on. They take it on faith. Lets see a popular one by a German Jew in the early 40's E=MC2. Otherwise knwon as the THERORY of Relativity. It is still not a law because the therory can not be proved completely.

This is how Science works.
Taken from a book on Intro to Physics.
The scientist develops a theory to try and explain how the system works. Based on the theory, the scientist can make predictions about cause and effect in real world events.

So in other words alot of what we belive is 'true' is based on a therory that some big brain has called truth.

Yeah your science will explain everything is great. hell it cant even explain itself.

[Tossica]

haha.