F Bill Gates

[Gidan]

This is one of the things that pisses me off to no end. Every company out there is doing the same god damned thing. That is why there are so many out of work IT people. Whats worse is that we are educating many of the foreign people at the cost of our own.

In my college alone the Computer Science department was 1/2 indian. That in itself isn't bad, whats bad is that not one of them was paying a dime for the education. They had their airfare, housing, tuition, books and cars paid for (Yes they were purchased cars so they could live off campus). They also had large expence funds. While the rest of us were paying out the nose to get our education. Many of us didn't complete the masters program simply because we couldn't afford it and the indians who were not paying a dime started to take out spots. We did beter on the projects, yet they were givin our spots becuase "Their unfamiliarity with the english language is hindering them, their grades are being recentered around that". We were told that over and over and over. WTF this is America, speak fucking english.

So we train then, they take the training back home. Now our companys are trying to get even more of these people back here to take more american jobs. Maybe we should invest the $$ we are puting into training them into training our own citizens and then we would have the best trained IT people and they wouldn't need to outsource or hire foreigns. But of course you would need to pay americans for and that would not make these companys happy. Hell I know many unemployed IT people who would gladly work for the dirt cheap wages some of the foreign people are getting but no one is even offering that.

Spend the fucking $$ and hire the out of work IT people that we already have. There are some amazingly skilled and intelligent people out there in this country with no jobs. This is just yet another Fuck You to Bill Gates.

[Eziekial]

I may need some IT people soon. Does they use Monster or do you have some other IT only website for them?

[Gidan]

I used everythign I could get my hands on when I was unemployed, as did many of my friends. Monster was the first place I posted.

[Diekan]

Dice.com

[Martrae]

This is one of the things that pisses me off to no end. Every company out there is doing the same god damned thing. That is why there are so many out of work IT people. Whats worse is that we are educating many of the foreign people at the cost of our own.

In my college alone the Computer Science department was 1/2 indian. That in itself isn't bad, whats bad is that not one of them was paying a dime for the education. They had their airfare, housing, tuition, books and cars paid for (Yes they were purchased cars so they could live off campus). They also had large expence funds. While the rest of us were paying out the nose to get our education. Many of us didn't complete the masters program simply because we couldn't afford it and the indians who were not paying a dime started to take out spots. We did beter on the projects, yet they were givin our spots becuase "Their unfamiliarity with the english language is hindering them, their grades are being recentered around that". We were told that over and over and over. WTF this is America, speak fucking english.

So we train then, they take the training back home. Now our companys are trying to get even more of these people back here to take more american jobs. Maybe we should invest the $$ we are puting into training them into training our own citizens and then we would have the best trained IT people and they wouldn't need to outsource or hire foreigns. But of course you would need to pay americans for and that would not make these companys happy. Hell I know many unemployed IT people who would gladly work for the dirt cheap wages some of the foreign people are getting but no one is even offering that.

Spend the fucking $$ and hire the out of work IT people that we already have. There are some amazingly skilled and intelligent people out there in this country with no jobs. This is just yet another Fuck You to Bill Gates.

QFE


careerbuilder.com is another big one. Honestly, tho your just as likely finding someone qualified by placing an ad in the local paper.

[Narrock]

What I have been screaming about all along - and it's been falling on deaf ears - is that the cost of living and prices have rocketed over the past couple of decades while wages have hardly moved. THAT is why the American worker screams for higher wages... to pay the 900 dollars a month rent for the shitty, rat and roach infested 1 bedroom apartment some greedy fucking landlord is charging (because "It's what everyone else charges") - then they've got to pay ever increasing utility bills, higher costs for food, pay for higher priced vehicles, pay for higher and higher insurance coverage, pay out the ass for a phone... then God forbid they have a couple of kids to support...

But, corporate America doesn't care. They want their money... not just enough to cover their over head and put a little in their pockets... they want IT ALL... and they will strive to "get it all" at YOUR expense.

If the cost of living and prices for goods and food actually matched our current wages - I hardly think we'd have as much of an issue as we're seeing now.

People like Mindia (and other suckers of the Bush shlong) will never get it.... they'll never see it. Until it's to late.

Corporate America is destroying this country - and the GOP is leading the charge.... and who's going to pay the price... you and I of course.

[Gypsiyee]

Thank you for that insightful opinion

[Ganzo]

From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs! Once the system is entrenched in the collective conscience, the state will wither away, leaving a utopian worker's paradise, where everyone is well-fed and happy.

Yay for communism

[Narrock]

Thank you for that insightful opinion

You're welcome Sometimes an emoticon just says it all...

[Diekan]

She was being sarcastic brainiack.

[Lyion]

'Competition' and 'fairness' are good. Pure greed is not. It is why we have laws against monopolies, and why up until recently our country wasnt so in bed with complete Robber Baron CEOs. It does me NO good if Microsofts stock goes up, and Bill Gates is worth a few billion more. Not only is he not taxed on that, but in the end the REAL innovation and learning will be moved overseas with the talent that takes our technical jobs.

Open Competition and supply and demand are good things for our economy and business.
The problem is that there is no longer a 'fair' configuration in regards to the workers and what they get, and the corporations and their benefits from the government. There are two big things people are missing out on that have caused this. Cheap Telecomm and labor laws that benefit the corporation.

Lets say 1% of our population of 250 Million is adapt IT professionals who work hard and the average salary is 50,000. Supply and demand for this raises the job earning at a slow 1%. The companies that pay for these workers have good competition, but the field is not empty nor saturated.

Now, suddenly we open up our jobs to all people in third world countries where the average salary for the same positions is under 1000 dollars a year. These same companies rush to fire the US workers and hire the foreigners for pennies on the dollar. Now, what happens to those 2.5 million IT workers who are displaced? It may be good business, but unfortunately it is bad for our country.

For those who claim nonchalance, you realise the long term effect of this greed is the devaluation of the dollar and the eventual erosion of individual business'. It is harmful all around, even to those without the wisdom to see the harm in moving vast portions of our middle class jobs away.

Cheap Telecom and the Internet have enabled whole swathes of jobs to be relocated to places where the costs to companies are a fraction of what they are here. This is in the short term devastating to the individual, and in the long term extremely harmful to our country. As the gap between the rich and poor widens and few middle class jobs become available that pay enough to keep up with the cost of living we become less of a first world country. Likewise, the IT talent in the country is better than the talent in India. That will change as fewer and fewer US workers can enter IT since all the new positions are overseas. Why get one US programmer when for the same cost you can get 10 Indian? That is whats really going on here. American High Tech workers are being downsized or retired and are being replaced via H1B or outsourcing with cheaper help.

Nobody is advocating a system of communism or telling corporations what they can or cannot do. However it should be a simple matter of honor and honesty that we demand accountability of these corporations that are getting millions in tax breaks and gimmicks and who are eroding the middle class in a way that could eventually crater our country.

[Ironfang]

Bill Gates wants more cheap workers, who does not?

Microsoft is and remains a high end company paying high end wages in a city that does NOT have infinite pools of labour available. Note that most people will not move thousands of miles for only a "decent" wage if unemployed, mainly because they do not know that they might get a job across the country if they worked at it.

As to "making a decent living" GET USED TO IT. We live in a society that has had an increased standard of living for the last 50ish years. That kind of ride does not last forever. Finally the rest of the world (read India and China) are starting to really cut into our ability to make huge incomes for relatively little work (read 40-50ish hours a week) as a society.

Yes corporations are a total mess. Greed is rampant and the rich are out to screw the not as rich. What has ever changed? It is the same today as it was 1000 years ago in that respect. The only significant difference is that there are more "rich" than there ever were in the past.

[Arlos]

Oh yeah, I'm SO unqualified. Only put in 6 years as a network engineer, have several different certifications, and supported the main WAN for an online conferencing company, so literally my actions determined the success of their hundreds of millions a year in business.

Yet I'm out of work, because companies everywhere have slashed their it departments to like 1-2 people or outsourced everything. So, here I am back in college again, at 34, trying to get a CS degree and maybe an MBA so I can jump out of the IT hole and find actual work in the computer field.

-Arlos

[Narrock]

She was being sarcastic brainiack.

Yes, I knew that Einstein. I just ignored it.

[Gypsiyee]

Oh yeah, I'm SO unqualified. Only put in 6 years as a network engineer, have several different certifications, and supported the main WAN for an online conferencing company, so literally my actions determined the success of their hundreds of millions a year in business.

Yet I'm out of work, because companies everywhere have slashed their it departments to like 1-2 people or outsourced everything. So, here I am back in college again, at 34, trying to get a CS degree and maybe an MBA so I can jump out of the IT hole and find actual work in the computer field.

-Arlos

When I posted my original response, I had Arlos in mind as a prime example of why outsourcing just irks the living hell out of me. He's just one of tons of people in similar situations - I understand that big corporations, no matter how much they make, have to budget - I don't understand why they have to cut every corner that keeps hard-working people in their own country out of work, though.

[Diekan]

So they can buy yet another 50 room mansion, that they'll live in for 2 weeks out of the year.

[Arlos]

They do it because they know that the 1-2 guys they DO keep will work 60-80 hour weeks, effectively cutting the costs to the employers to get a given amount of work done significantly. Those 1-2 people still there put in those hours cause of fear, knowing that there's 10 other just as qualified people out there who would jump on the job in a second. Given the complete lack of employer loyalty to its employees these days, just working 40 hour weeks can find you getting your ass canned.

I wouldn't recommend anyone go into IT these days, period. If you're dead set on it, learn all the security stuff you can, most companies will keep a security guy around, cause it's actually important enough to them to not outsource that. Slow networks, employee burnout, old and jury-rigged gear, and significantly sub-optimal performance, they'll deal with in the name of saving 50 cents, but the bad publicity from getting hacked is enough to get even the thickest stuffed suit worried, so they do insist on an in-house security guy.

-Arlos

[Ironfang]

Agreed on that Arlos. The general rule of all corporations these days is to squeeze more out of existing staff and cut back staffing levels all around.

The sad thing about anything to do with skills in any field is that if you get in the wrong place you can be dumped in a heartbeat and find it really hard to find a new job. I personally have been working as a contractor for the last 4 years, mostly through agencies, as I cannot seem to find a permanent job that I want to work at and that wants to talk to me.

The North American standard of living is going to decline in a hurry over the next few years as the baby boomers start to retire and the joys of social security and medicare (or our Canadian equivalent) start to really cost a lot of money. Having to retrain in your 30's is a lot better than where you would be at say 50 where you would have no hope of decent employment and likely have more responsibilities than you do today.

[xaoshaen]

'Competition' and 'fairness' are good. Pure greed is not. It is why we have laws against monopolies, and why up until recently our country wasnt so in bed with complete Robber Baron CEOs. It does me NO good if Microsofts stock goes up, and Bill Gates is worth a few billion more. Not only is he not taxed on that, but in the end the REAL innovation and learning will be moved overseas with the talent that takes our technical jobs.

Pure greed is what drives competition. Companies don't pit themselves against each other for the benefit of the consumer, they do so in the interests of their own bottom lines. Hell our whole political system is founded on the principal of greed. Relying on the selfish nature of humanity is why it succeeds as opposed to more optimistic philosophies like Socialism.

Of course it provides you no direct benefit if Microsoft becomes more successful... just as it does Microsoft no direct benefit if you become successful.

Open Competition and supply and demand are good things for our economy and business.
The problem is that there is no longer a 'fair' configuration in regards to the workers and what they get, and the corporations and their benefits from the government. There are two big things people are missing out on that have caused this. Cheap Telecomm and labor laws that benefit the corporation.

If you define "fair" as being in the best interests of the American worker, than no. Unfortunately, that doesn't remotely resemble the actual definition of "fair".

Lets say 1% of our population of 250 Million is adapt IT professionals who work hard and the average salary is 50,000. Supply and demand for this raises the job earning at a slow 1%. The companies that pay for these workers have good competition, but the field is not empty nor saturated.

Now, suddenly we open up our jobs to all people in third world countries where the average salary for the same positions is under 1000 dollars a year. These same companies rush to fire the US workers and hire the foreigners for pennies on the dollar. Now, what happens to those 2.5 million IT workers who are displaced? It may be good business, but unfortunately it is bad for our country.

No. It's bad for the people who were displaced. It's not necessarily bad for the country. It certaintly can have deleterious effects, but so can forcing corporations to hire more expensive employees for little to no additional results.

For those who claim nonchalance, you realise the long term effect of this greed is the devaluation of the dollar and the eventual erosion of individual business'. It is harmful all around, even to those without the wisdom to see the harm in moving vast portions of our middle class jobs away.

As opposed to the stagnation that follows from enforcing market-independant hiring rules? That's not exactly a currency-reinforcing strategy....

Cheap Telecom and the Internet have enabled whole swathes of jobs to be relocated to places where the costs to companies are a fraction of what they are here. This is in the short term devastating to the individual, and in the long term extremely harmful to our country. As the gap between the rich and poor widens and few middle class jobs become available that pay enough to keep up with the cost of living we become less of a first world country.

This is an unsupported allegation. It's a huge jump from saying that job relocation harms individuals to claiming that it will broaden the gap between the rich and the poor, destroying the middle class.

Likewise, the IT talent in the country is better than the talent in India.

Proof? I wouldn't rely on anecdotal evidence here. I've accumulated more than a few horror stories of American idiots working in IT-related fields...

That will change as fewer and fewer US workers can enter IT since all the new positions are overseas. Why get one US programmer when for the same cost you can get 10 Indian? That is whats really going on here. American High Tech workers are being downsized or retired and are being replaced via H1B or outsourcing with cheaper help.

That's what happens when you allow yourself to become uncompetitive within a capitalistic society. Witness the American auto industry: put out a product that costs more without any offsetting benefits and you'll get driven out of the marketplace.

Nobody is advocating a system of communism or telling corporations what they can or cannot do. However it should be a simple matter of honor and honesty that we demand accountability of these corporations that are getting millions in tax breaks and gimmicks and who are eroding the middle class in a way that could eventually crater our country.

You need to reread Diekan's posts... Demanding accountability of corporate America is not the same as mandating that it must hire overpriced American workers. Tax laws are another matter entirely, and one on which I would probably agree more closely with you.

[Lyion]

Pure greed is what drives competition. Companies don't pit themselves against each other for the benefit of the consumer, they do so in the interests of their own bottom lines. Hell our whole political system is founded on the principal of greed. Relying on the selfish nature of humanity is why it succeeds as opposed to more optimistic philosophies like Socialism.

You misunderstand my point. There are rules and regulations business must follow in this pursuit of coin. Are you for removing monopoly laws? What you are preaching is pure libertarianism and its been proven that if we do not have any sort of government intervention then the larger corporations gobble up competition, underprice anyone trying to enter the marketplace, and engage in anti trust marketing that closes opportunities for others. Likewise, the fact companies can now utilize and change laws en masse via special interest groups not available to the workers has made things much more difficult.

The problem is in your so called paradigm of excellence this competition you are looking at is not really 'product' competition, but the ability to use the American economy and at the same time undercut the people who support that economy. Especially since we are moreso talking about 'services' versus product since so much of our 'product' is now coming from overseas, and thus is why we have such a crappy trade deficit.

Your point that competition is good is fine. You want Business to have an open ability to do whatever it wants. I do not.

[If you define "fair" as being in the best interests of the American worker, than no. Unfortunately, that doesn't remotely resemble the actual definition of "fair".

Absolutely. The Corporations have lawyers and special interest groups who lobby Washington for tax breaks, free cash, and H1Bs to import workers who will live on substandard salaries.

Fair is fair to business and worker. For some reason you seem to think Business should have the ability to do whatever it wants. We have laws and regulations here for the good of everyone.

No. It's bad for the people who were displaced. It's not necessarily bad for the country. It certaintly can have deleterious effects, but so can forcing corporations to hire more expensive employees for little to no additional results. .

If we lose mass amounts of middle class jobs that require people to collect unemployment and retrain to probable lower paid fields, how does that not hurt our country? The problem again resides in the beneifts of being an 'American' company while being able to utilize workers from a different economy with a much lower cost of living.

For those who claim nonchalance, you realise the long term effect of this greed is the devaluation of the dollar and the eventual erosion of individual business'. It is harmful all around, even to those without the wisdom to see the harm in moving vast portions of our middle class jobs away.

As opposed to the stagnation that follows from enforcing market-independant hiring rules? That's not exactly a currency-reinforcing strategy.....

Except thats not true. Again its a ripple effect and the majority if IT companies outsource and hire foreign workers not because they choose to or because of profits, but because they have to because of the competition doing the same. Hiring people from the economy you are in does not stagnate and actually would produce more growth. Outsourcing provides instant minor profits but degrades the overall health of our country since the stock amount fluctuates, but a deplaced mass group of workers is a pure drain.

Cheap Telecom and the Internet have enabled whole swathes of jobs to be relocated to places where the costs to companies are a fraction of what they are here. This is in the short term devastating to the individual, and in the long term extremely harmful to our country. As the gap between the rich and poor widens and few middle class jobs become available that pay enough to keep up with the cost of living we become less of a first world country.

This is an unsupported allegation. It's a huge jump from saying that job relocation harms individuals to claiming that it will broaden the gap between the rich and the poor, destroying the middle class. .

No, its not. As we outsource and companies become more and more located in Bangalore and other places then those displaced middle class workers who cannot find equivalent positions will indeed move from middle class to poverty level. I've seen it happen. Find the numbers between the gap of rich and poor over the last 5 years.

Likewise, the IT talent in the country is better than the talent in India.

Proof? I wouldn't rely on anecdotal evidence here. I've accumulated more than a few horror stories of American idiots working in IT-related fields....

Take a look at the software we've created and the fact we are the pre eminent power in the industry for now. Unfortunately this mass moving of careers overseas is bridging this gap at an extraordinary rate and we may indeed be behind India soon

That will change as fewer and fewer US workers can enter IT since all the new positions are overseas. Why get one US programmer when for the same cost you can get 10 Indian? That is whats really going on here. American High Tech workers are being downsized or retired and are being replaced via H1B or outsourcing with cheaper help.

That's what happens when you allow yourself to become uncompetitive within a capitalistic society. Witness the American auto industry: put out a product that costs more without any offsetting benefits and you'll get driven out of the marketplace..

You are comparing 'services' fields with 'product' fields. Anyways the point is not about competing products, its about salaries in third world countries and the effect the mass hiring and migration of jobs is having on US workers. I do not think its good for the US workers to have to compete for jobs with people who can live on 50 dollars a month. You seem to think that this sort of competition is healthy. We disagree.

You need to reread Diekan's posts... Demanding accountability of corporate America is not the same as mandating that it must hire overpriced American workers. Tax laws are another matter entirely, and one on which I would probably agree more closely with you.

I think you'll find Diekan is pretty firmly in agreement with my posts in relation to corporate America and its philosophies on outsourcing and worker displacement.

[Eziekial]

I'm an American and I am benifiting from this IT glut. We currently have an IT guy working for peanuts and we will need more soon. We employ them and they offer a service, our business creates jobs and opportunities for other (not in IT persay) and is more effiecient use of resources. Sucks to be IT people right now, as I'm sure it sucked to be a spot welder the day the robot was brought into the assembly line

[Narrock]

IT guys should get paid 10 bucks an hour imo. The security guy who monitors the IT guys should get 12 bucks an hour.

[Arlos]

So sayeth the person who has NO idea how much training and education, not to mention knowledge and skill is necessary to be a real network engineer. Data entry people make 10 bucks an hour. Go fuck yourself with a splintery board, Mindia. Maybe you can nail 2x4s together for the purpose and pretend they're a cross.

-Arlos

[Narrock]

So sayeth the person who has NO idea how much training and education, not to mention knowledge and skill is necessary to be a real network engineer. Data entry people make 10 bucks an hour. Go fuck yourself with a splintery board, Mindia. Maybe you can nail 2x4s together for the purpose and pretend they're a cross.

-Arlos

somebody hear a violin playing?

[Narrock]

I tell you what Arlos... you wanna make more money? You can come wash my car every Sunday for 5 bucks, and then you can clean my house too for an extra 20 bucks a week. There's an extra hundred bucks a month!

Grab your chamois, boy. I want to see you working hard until you cry. EARN your money you prima donna. $10/bucks an hour as an IT peon is plenty enough for you.