Women who use birth control are sluts

[Donnel]

Thou shalt not murder.

[Darcler]

^~~ yeah, that.

[Gidan]

Where does it say abortion is murder though. So far its all personal opinion as to whether killing a fetus is murder or not. Some say it is, some say its not.

[Donnel]

Jeremiah 1:5 - Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

God acknowledges that it's a person. He knew the person, and even had a job for this person to do before he was even a gleam in his daddy's eye.

Killing a person is murder.

[Darcler]

Choosing religion is all personal opinion also. MOST of the time (if not all) someone who is pro-bible is pro-life. There is no changing their mind. This is still the most pointless debate.


I was watching George Carlin before I went to sleep, he had a GREAT bit about abortion. Oh and capitol punishment to help the national debt. lol was funniriffic

[Donnel]

Darcler,

Gidan specifically asked where God said abortion was murder. Using the "religion doesn't matter because it's personal choice" in this context is not appropriate since the question was asked with an answer based on religion expected.

<3

[Darcler]

stfuysmf I AM ALWAYS RIGHT!~~!

[Gidan]

Very true. you answered my question. So you beleive that abortion for any and every reason is bad? even if both the mother and child will die for sure? Because it is still murder acording to the bible.

[Donnel]

Yep

[The Kizzy]

But if knowing an abortion would save as mothers life, wouldn't not aborting be murder as well.

[Donnel]

Nope.

Let me ask you something Kizzy, do you believe that miracles can happen?

[Darcler]

Miracles can happen, they can happen for (to) yoooooooooou
Punlishers Clearing House, were helping dreams come truuuuuuuue

[Gidan]

Maybe god gave us the miracle, he gave us the knowlege and the ability to abort the pregnancy to save her life.

[Arlos]

OK, sure, your belief on abortion is based on religion. Now, tell me why that should matter *ONE IOTA* in the United states? Remember the Bill of Rights? You know, where it states that there shall not be a national religion? Remember Jefferson in his letters about the crafting of The Bill, stating that his proudest achievement in the Bill was to "Create a wall between Church and State; a permanent separation"?

You have your religious beliefs, that's fine, that is your absolute inalienable right. By all means, don't have an abortion yourself. However, show me WHERE in the Constitution that it says that it's OK for you to impose your religious beliefs as the law of the land, especially on others who believe differently than you do? Guess what, not only won't you find such a statute, you'll find the opposite, as I just mentioned.

As a result, keep your religious beliefs to yourself, or admit you don't give a flying fuck about the Constitution.

-Arlos

[Gidan]

Bush is doing everything he can to tare the seperation wall down. If he gets his way. Church will be a perminent fixture in government.

[Donnel]

Arlos,

Back the gravy train up sir. The question was directed where God believe abortion was murder.

Who says I am trying to change your opinion on things? By the way, I just got an e-mail telling me that I can "RIGHT NOW SEDUCE 100 WOMEN!!!1!" I guess I should send them an e-mail back telling them to stop trying to force their world view on me. They are trashing my rights! Trashing!

Pro-Life groups can lobby all they want to get things changed their way. So can pro-choice groups. THAT is the wonders of our government and our system here in America. So far, the pro-choice groups are winning *shrug* In my belief system they won't have to answer to me in the long run.

As a result, keep your anti-religious beliefs to yourself and quit trying to push your agenda on me

[Arlos]

Yes, I know he is, and that's one of the reasons I despise the man, and think he's one of the worst presidents, ever. Jefferson, who many acknowledge as the most brilliant of the Founding Fathers, and one of the best presidents ever, made a SPECIFIC point of trying to make sure that Religion and Government were in no way intertwined. The whole phrase of "Separation of Church and State" comes from Jefferson's letters about the Bill of Rights. It was his absolute clear and unequivocal intent in that portion of the Bill.

-Arlos

[Donnel]

Hey, if I'd been held under the tyrrany of a ruler who claimed to be god's vessel on earth and forced to worship in the church of the state (Church of England) I'd want to ensure religious liberty for myself as well.

No state church =! no belief in god

[Arlos]

Donnel: Argument to convince your fellow man is radically different than legislation being enacted to force one belief upon another. If you disagree with me, you simply have to stop listening. If you disagree with a law that is passed, you have effectively no recourse, save for the hope that the law will be declared Unconstitutional.

In no way did Jefferson intend for people to not discuss their beliefs, he was merely attempting to make sure that the GOVERNMENT didn't try and enforce the beliefs of a specific religion on everyone else, especially considering that many of those others may be of an entirely different religion, who believe radically different things than you do.

Now, please explain why YOU feel it is right to attempt to enact laws specific to YOUR religious belief, when it was the clear intent of Jefferson for this to never happen?

-Arlos

[Arlos]

Donnel, as I said in my first post, your right to believe in whatever you want is inalienable. It is even Constitutionally guaranteed. I fervently support your right to your religious beliefs, no matter how much I might disagree with them. What I cannot, and will not support is any attempt to convert religious beliefs into legal statute. THAT is expressly forbidden by the Constitution, and preventing such from occuring was the clear intent of Jefferson.

-Arlos

PS. That Jeremiah reading you posted could easily be interpreted to be specific to Jeremiah himself, as opposed to being universal. Unless, of course, you think being a "prophet unto the nations" is a universal condition of all humanity, which I somewhat doubt...

[Donnel]

Well, considering that this discussion started based on abortion let's look at it from that persepcted.

A law banning abortion as illegal on the grounds that the fetus slaying is indeed murder is inherently religiously biased because....?

P.S. What's good for the geese is good for the gander. How could God know one person from before birth and not the rest? That was just one reference btw.

[Arlos]

Because your belief that the fetus is a person is obviously based on the Bible, you admitted it freely. So, if you want to enact laws based on that, you're legislating your religion. As I said before, it is COMPLETELY your right to disagree with abortion, don't have one, or counsel people of your faith to not have one. Hell, it's even your absolute right to try and persuade someone out of your faith against it, if they're willing to listen. If they tell you to shut up and leave them alone though, then you are compelled to respect their wishes. What you do NOT have the right to do, however, is to attempt to make laws enacting tenets of your religion, that is completely and totally Unconstitutional.

As for your PS, it's obvious he knew Jeremiah individually because he had specific plans for him, ie, being a "prophet unto the nations".

-Arlos

[Gidan]

The reason it is religiously bias is that your religion tells you that fetus slaying is murder.

Some beleive it becomes murder at conception, some religions durring the pregnancy, some during birth. Acording to YOUR religion its murder, acording to others it is not.

[Lyion]

How does belief abortion is murder at all equate to religion? That doesn't make sense....

So, if an atheist believes abortion is wrong, did he suddenly find God and not know it?
Do non religious people only believe things that are illegal are wrong?

If one thinks killing an unborn child is murder, what does it matter the reasonings why. Its a simple belief that its murder. That is not 'based' on religion. Unless you believe non religious people are ok with murder.

[Narrock]

Secular progressives are a lost cause, and are a major problem with America today.