GM and Ford.. Healthcare costs will kill them

Captain Insano · Post by **Captain Insano** » Thu May 05, 2005 12:12 pm

I am sure national healthcare works well in other countries, but I think it would fail miserably here.

Why?

Americans are assholes for the most part. They don't care about most other people and would take advantage of any state run system, much like the blacks on welfare. We would have old cranky people who were worthless losers lining up everyday to see just how much free care and bullshit they could wring out of the healthcare system until it just collapsed in a stinking expensive pile of government waste.

I hate the idea of free healthcare now that I give it some thought. I also hate the baby boomers. They were a worthless generation of slackers and hippies. Fuck them and their health problems.

Eziekial · Post by **Eziekial** » Thu May 05, 2005 12:27 pm

Ralf, if we ever meet, the first few rounds are on me.

veeneedefeesh · Post by **veeneedefeesh** » Thu May 05, 2005 2:21 pm

It seriously breaks my heart that corporations with CEO's who make MILLIONS in salary and many more in stock options, bonuses, and business trips with their mistresses etc, are having a hard time paying the bills. (GM CEO Rick Wagoner makes 2.2 Million a year salary and gets 2.4 million in bonuses) Why not fire a few of those in upper management, or at least pay them a REASONABLE sum of money and take the savings and put it into healthcare? oh yea because the people that make decisions like that are the ones raping their employees and thier customers so that they can get another million, a trip to the Caymans, a brand new BMW every year, and a house on a golf course.

Martrae wrote:They certainly didn't forcibly take it from someone, which is what the government does

I have never met a rich person who didnt screw someone to get thier money, or if they inhereted it thier anscestors screwed someone. I'm not saying that they don't exist, Im just saying that I have never met one.

Captain Insano · Post by **Captain Insano** » Thu May 05, 2005 2:45 pm

Eziekial wrote:Ralf, if we ever meet, the first few rounds are on me.

haha thanks.

I believe it's pretty true in some respects to what I posted above.

Americans in general seem to always lean towards taking advantage of any opportunity with mindless greed without any conscience or thought as to how it would affect anyone else. I think national healthcare would fail on an epic level if implemented in this country.

Phlegm · Post by **Phlegm** » Thu May 05, 2005 5:27 pm

Ford and GM lost money in the first quarter because of the high gas prices. Nobody is buying SUVs and pick up trucks. Since Ford and GM make craptastic cars, no one is buy their offerings. That's why Toyota and Honda profits increased for the quarter. They sell better cars than Ford or GM.

Narrock · Post by **Narrock** » Thu May 05, 2005 5:53 pm

Ford > GM

Captain Insano · Post by **Captain Insano** » Thu May 05, 2005 5:57 pm

Mindia wrote:Ford > GM

no one cares... japanese/euros much > than ford/gm.

Even though they have high health care costs that doesn't explain one bit on why they continue to make awful, poorly performing, unreliable and ugly ass vehicles.

The only american car company worth a damn in some respects is chrysler and cadillac.

Eziekial · Post by **Eziekial** » Thu May 05, 2005 6:08 pm

Phlegm wrote:Ford and GM lost money in the first quarter because of the high gas prices. Nobody is buying SUVs and pick up trucks. Since Ford and GM make craptastic cars, no one is buy their offerings. That's why Toyota and Honda profits increased for the quarter. They sell better cars than Ford or GM.

You should really check the statistics before you post something that sounds like fact rather than your opinion. SUV and truck sales are expected to reach 5 year highs this year regardless of the cost of gas.

http://www.wardsauto.com/

It's a wealth of information on US auto industry.

Phlegm · Post by **Phlegm** » Thu May 05, 2005 6:35 pm

Eziekial wrote:
Phlegm wrote:Ford and GM lost money in the first quarter because of the high gas prices. Nobody is buying SUVs and pick up trucks. Since Ford and GM make craptastic cars, no one is buy their offerings. That's why Toyota and Honda profits increased for the quarter. They sell better cars than Ford or GM.

You should really check the statistics before you post something that sounds like fact rather than your opinion. SUV and truck sales are expected to reach 5 year highs this year regardless of the cost of gas.

http://www.wardsauto.com/

It's a wealth of information on US auto industry.

From the Washington Post article: "Ford Profit Plunges As SUV Sales Drop"

The company said profit suffered because high gasoline prices have caused consumers to abandon big sport-utility vehicles -- which carry the heftiest profit margins -- more quickly than anticipated.

complete article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ar ... Apr20.html

Phlegm · Post by **Phlegm** » Thu May 05, 2005 6:44 pm

Eziekial wrote:
Phlegm wrote:Ford and GM lost money in the first quarter because of the high gas prices. Nobody is buying SUVs and pick up trucks. Since Ford and GM make craptastic cars, no one is buy their offerings. That's why Toyota and Honda profits increased for the quarter. They sell better cars than Ford or GM.

You should really check the statistics before you post something that sounds like fact rather than your opinion. SUV and truck sales are expected to reach 5 year highs this year regardless of the cost of gas.

http://www.wardsauto.com/

It's a wealth of information on US auto industry.

From money.cnn.com article: "GM: No target for return to profits"

the company saw fewer sales of higher-priced, more profitable sport/utility vehicles and pickups.

full article here: http://money.cnn.com/2005/04/19/news/fo ... gm_losses/

Eziekial · Post by **Eziekial** » Thu May 05, 2005 7:05 pm

http://images.wardsauto.com/files/1004/ ... 050430.xls

Actual figures. Light trucks Year to Date -6.2% from 04 figures. Heavy trucks +32.8

A bit of a difference when you see the figures rather than hear CEO's and CFO's try to spin news to make themselves look better.

Narrock · Post by **Narrock** » Thu May 05, 2005 7:44 pm

I'm just saying... I'd much rather buy a Ford vehicle than a GM vehicle. Ford trucks are awesome, and so are Mustangs. The new GT40 based on the Le Mans GT40 is incredible too.

Captain Insano · Post by **Captain Insano** » Thu May 05, 2005 9:17 pm

I'll give it to you on the GT40. That thing is amazing.

mofish · Post by **mofish** » Thu May 05, 2005 10:50 pm

Ford and GM officially junk :

S&P Cuts GM, Ford Credit Ratings to 'Junk'
Email this Story

May 5, 2:29 PM (ET)

By JOHN PORRETTO

DETROIT (AP) - Standard & Poor's Ratings Services cut its corporate credit ratings to junk status for both General Motors Corp. (GM) and Ford Motor Co. (F), a significant blow that will increase borrowing costs and limit fund-raising options for the nation's two biggest automakers.

Shares of both companies fell 5 percent or more after Thursday's downgrades, and the news sent the overall market lower.

The decision by one of the nation's most respected ratings agencies comes as the two iconic American automakers are losing market share at home to Asian automakers, seeing sales soften for their most profitable models and are facing enormous health care and post-retirement liabilities.

The credit ratings agency said its downgrade of GM's long-term rating below investment-grade status reflects its conclusion that management's current strategies may not be effective in dealing with the automaker's competitive disadvantages.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050505/D89T6CAO1.html

Phlegm · Post by **Phlegm** » Fri May 06, 2005 6:05 am

Eziekial wrote:http://images.wardsauto.com/files/1004/NAweekprodSummary050430.xls

Actual figures. Light trucks Year to Date -6.2% from 04 figures. Heavy trucks +32.8

A bit of a difference when you see the figures rather than hear CEO's and CFO's try to spin news to make themselves look better.

That chart is for production figures. Is there one for sales?

xaoshaen · Post by **xaoshaen** » Fri May 06, 2005 7:37 am

ralfmacchio wrote:
Mindia wrote:Ford > GM

no one cares... japanese/euros much > than ford/gm.

Even though they have high health care costs that doesn't explain one bit on why they continue to make awful, poorly performing, unreliable and ugly ass vehicles.

The only american car company worth a damn in some respects is chrysler and cadillac.

Didn't we just have this conversation? While the Japanese are still on top of the auto world, the Europeans have slipped behind the U.S. rather woefully. In part it's due to the highr standards the Japanese have laregely forced the U.S. automakers to adopt, and in part it's just shoddiness on behalf of the Euros.

xaoshaen · Post by **xaoshaen** » Fri May 06, 2005 7:38 am

ralfmacchio wrote:Americans in general seem to always lean towards taking advantage of any opportunity with mindless greed without any conscience or thought as to how it would affect anyone else.

This is because Americans are a subset of humanity. There's a reason greed-based political and economic systems succeed while those theoretically based on altruism collapse.

Ironfang · Post by **Ironfang** » Fri May 06, 2005 8:02 am

Getting back to the first point, national healthcare in the USA would NOT WORK.

There is a simple reason behind this. Taxes in the US would have to go up by a massive amount both personally and corporate. There is no way in the world that the average American would go for this as they think they are being heavily taxed right now.

Of course, coming from Canada, the US mentality towards taxation is a total joke. I have heard Americans whine and complain about how much gas cost... wah wah wah. Go to any other county in the world and you will see that gas prices are 30% (Canada) to 100% or more higher in Europe and Japan.

The US has the lowest taxation rates in the world (for a major country) and provides absolutely the least social assistance for the poor. There is no way I can believe that the US would adopt a national healthcare system that would cost in the trillions annually and then somehow "vote" in the tax increases that would be needed to pay for it. The attempt would be political suicide.

Also, if you want to see the economic costs of a national healthcare system, look at Canada. Overall studies indicate that the costs of the Canadian system are about 20-30% cheaper than the US (less middlemen making money) but we are having huge problems with lack of doctors and nurses as the higher paying private healthcare of the US makes them move for the cash.

As a result of having a national healthcare system Canada pays approximately 10-15% income tax annually for ALL citizens just to support this system. Yes, that means that to get a national healhcare system in the US all they would have to do is beat back the lobby of the existing healthcare groups and then vote in a 10% increase in taxes for everyone.

The costs are just too high to think it might happen in our lifetime.

Post by **Lyion** » Fri May 06, 2005 8:47 am

As soon as more doctors and nurses start setting up practices and we can fly there for surgeries at 1/100th the cost the US Medical system will freak and we'll see reform.

This is nearer than many might think.

Post by **Tossica** » Fri May 06, 2005 8:49 am

People are paying for healthcare as it is. It's not like everyone in the US is getting free health care right now and we are talking about making them pay for it. They are ALREADY paying for it through group policies at work, personal policies etc.

Captain Insano · Post by **Captain Insano** » Sat May 07, 2005 2:05 am

Lyion wrote:As soon as more doctors and nurses start setting up practices and we can fly there for surgeries at 1/100th the cost the US Medical system will freak and we'll see reform.

This is nearer than many might think.

that and the russians, indians and chinese are working on getting their own pharmaceutical companies up and running and in full swing with the intent to compete with the pfizer's of America. Give it enough time and Americans along with everyone else will start going out of country for their medical needs. I'm sure we'll see some half assed short-sighted attempt at reform, but it will be way to late by then.

Diekan · Post by **Diekan** » Sat May 07, 2005 5:19 am

hey... at least Bush is going to stop homo's from getting married. after all... isn't that why some of you voted that ass monkey BACK into office? bet you're kicking yourselves in the ass now.

Post by **Martrae** » Sat May 07, 2005 6:46 am

Why would anyone be kicking themselves over Bush now when the economy is booming along so nicely?

Diekan · Post by **Diekan** » Sat May 07, 2005 7:06 am

Booming? You're kidding right? The economy will be "booming" when families can actually afford to survive without both parents having to work 3 jobs between them to pay the mortgage. Right now the only thing that's "booming" is the wallet sizes of corporate America.

I have heard Americans whine and complain about how much gas cost... wah wah wah. Go to any other county in the world and you will see that gas prices are 30% (Canada) to 100% or more higher in Europe and Japan.

Considering this ISN'T Japan or Europe that argument isn't valid. Europeans and the Japanese do NOT drive as much as we do. Their cities are much more compact (and countries much smaller), thus they depend a great deal more on both public transportation and bicycling than we do / can. The average US citizen lives what? 20 to 40 minutes from their job? The US is much more "spread out" than most other countries. Thus, we have a legit dependancy on our vehicles... we don't just use them "for fun." 5 dollars a gallon for gas doesn't have near the effect on a person living in Tokyo as does 2 dollars a gallon for someone living in Columbus, Ohio. If you can't see that then you need glasses.

Post by **Ganzo** » Sat May 07, 2005 8:15 am

Lyion wrote:As soon as more doctors and nurses start setting up practices and we can fly there for surgeries at 1/100th the cost the US Medical system will freak and we'll see reform.

This is nearer than many might think.

it's here already. I went to Israel and did my full dental work. It was estimated by 4 difent dentist here for over 12k, it cost me there 1.8k