Your tax dollars at work

Post by **Lyion** » Mon May 23, 2005 12:50 pm

You can't compare national defense acts in war to societal punishment of its citizens.

Well, unless you wish to compare our Government to Stalin.

xaoshaen · Post by **xaoshaen** » Mon May 23, 2005 1:02 pm

Lyion wrote:You can't compare national defense acts in war to societal punishment of its citizens.

Well, unless you wish to compare our Government to Stalin.

The same logic applies to both situations. Is it or is it not ethical to treat entities as they behave towards others?

Post by **Lyion** » Mon May 23, 2005 1:12 pm

No, it does not. One is about law enforcement and legal entitlements to citizens. The other is warfare.

That is not a good object for comparison unless you are equating citizens rights and our legal system with external national defense.

In that thread though, do we execute POWs? Those who have killed our countrymen in war? No.

Should we execute prisoners, our own citizens, if they've commited similar crimes? Again, my belief is no.

Post by **Ganzo** » Mon May 23, 2005 1:37 pm

Tuggan wrote:cases like rape, violent assault, murder/attempted murder, severe child abuse, etc... if youre found guilty of such crimes without a doubt... life in prison. no good behavior shit gets you incentives, no parole.

Why should society be forced to support them for rest of their life. I would rather same tax money was spent on free education. And don't bring up story about killing criminal costs more than life in prison, that is insane crap US invented; bullet in the head outside the courthouse once sentanced is sufficient. Life of hard labor maybe ok but i'd rather not risk the chance of them breakin out and causing more pain.

Lyion, you still have not answered my question about rehab

Post by **Ganzo** » Mon May 23, 2005 1:43 pm

Lyion wrote:In that thread though, do we execute POWs? Those who have killed our countrymen in war? No.

Should we execute prisoners, our own citizens, if they've commited similar crimes? Again, my belief is no.

There is a world of diffrence between a soldier fighting in war and killing enemy and guy wacking his neighbor for tv.

This is same bullshit i heard on radio today. I was listening to Alex Bernett(i think) on Sirius, and he had a guest, who was a US Marine Sniper. Guy retired this year and was in Somalia and Iraq; he has 60 confirmed enemy kills. This asshole of a talkhost had a nerve to ask this soldier what made him diffrent from a serial killer who murders 60 people, and kept on pushing his point making guest defend himself for protecting us in the war. I was so disgusted i had to switch chanell, i couldnt take that crap anymore.

vonkaar · Post by **vonkaar** » Mon May 23, 2005 1:44 pm

Ganzo wrote:bullet in the head outside the courthouse once sentanced is sufficient. Life of hard labor maybe ok but i'd rather not risk the chance of them breakin out and causing more pain.

Here's to due process! Wheeee!

Post by **Ganzo** » Mon May 23, 2005 1:45 pm

way to quote out of context to prove your point Vonk

vonkaar · Post by **vonkaar** » Mon May 23, 2005 1:48 pm

ready for this? I'll keep doing it:

ganzo wrote:bullet in the head outside the courthouse once sentanced is sufficient

Your point remains the same. Ya'll keep referring to shortening the 'process'. Conviction = kill em quick!

And then, I'll respond with:

"here's to due process! wheee!"

Post by **Lyion** » Mon May 23, 2005 2:06 pm

Ganzo wrote:Lyion, you still have not answered my question about rehab

I'm following your link to this:

Milagro Cunningham, 17, was charged with attempted murder, sexual battery on a child under 12, and false imprisonment of a victim under 13 years old, police said. He was in custody for an initial court appearance scheduled Monday.

This is a violent criminal, the type we want to lock up for a long duration.

Again, should we treat a guy selling a dime bag of pot the same as we treat this fellow, are those crimes equal in their danger to society?

Maybe we can execute all criminals, and clear up our prison system. Who cares if we get a few wrong, it'll save big bucks and we'll sure deter future criminals! Maybe after we start rapidly executing people, we can start expanding lesser crimes to include execution. We sure dont need those shoplifters around!

Where would it end?

Post by **Ganzo** » Mon May 23, 2005 2:38 pm

It is not question of execution. Lock up for life cost is high, and as soon as you make it where they work to pay this cost, you place them in situation where they have more ways to escape.

So once again how do you reform a guy who raped and burried alive 12 year old girl?

Vonkaar wrote:Conviction = kill em quick!

Glad to see you on my side

xaoshaen · Post by **xaoshaen** » Mon May 23, 2005 2:44 pm

Lyion wrote:No, it does not. One is about law enforcement and legal entitlements to citizens. The other is warfare.

Yes, it does. It's about the ethics of retaliatory activity. The processes do not need to be identical for the ethics to be applicable. This is the entire basis of establishing an ethical code.

That is not a good object for comparison unless you are equating citizens rights and our legal system with external national defense.

It has nothing to do with either citizens rights or national defense, but with the concept of social ethics: is it acceptable to do horrible things to people simply because they've done them to others?

In that thread though, do we execute POWs? Those who have killed our countrymen in war? No.

Yes we can, if we can prove that they've commited crimes against humanity.

Post by **Martrae** » Mon May 23, 2005 2:44 pm

8 year old.

I'm not understanding your point about your wife working on the bomber. We'd do the same thing, patch em up so they can stand trial. We certainly wouldn't let them lie there until they died no matter if we have the death penalty here or not.

Post by **Lyion** » Mon May 23, 2005 2:45 pm

The problem right now Ganzo is NOBODY is getting rehabilitated or aided in prison. Not the nonviolent criminals who have a shot at redemption, nor the one time offenders.

What is your solution? And does it involve ensuring we are punishing the right person? How much surety should we have for our criminals before we execute them, and will it be equal across the board?

Post by **Ganzo** » Mon May 23, 2005 2:55 pm

My way is simple:
noviolent crimes= work of your debt(no rehabilitation needed, just work your ass off till you pay what you stole)

Violent crimes like one i brought up: death. How to make sure it's right person: go through every method of questioning if evedence is cicumstancial, like truth serum, lie detectors, etc. Yes i know it is posible that small % of inocents will fall through system but this is the case where end justify the means.

drug cases you talking about i would not even send to court, just have those caught do shit hospital jobs for a year or so. Like cleaning puke of ex-junkies in rehabs.

vonkaar · Post by **vonkaar** » Mon May 23, 2005 2:55 pm

Ganzo wrote:It is not question of execution. Lock up for life cost is high, and as soon as you make it where they work to pay this cost, you place them in situation where they have more ways to escape.

So once again how do you reform a guy who raped and burried alive 12 year old girl?

Vonkaar wrote:Conviction = kill em quick!
Glad to see you on my side

You aren't following me.

EVERYONE is entitled to the same basic right to due process. EVERYONE receives the same 'fair' trial... the same basic rights to defense. I 'get' to defend myself for public intoxication just as an accused murderer 'gets' to defend himself. A "Kill em quick" mindset is completely bypassing that right.

Post by **Ganzo** » Mon May 23, 2005 2:55 pm

Martrae wrote:8 year old.

I'm not understanding your point about your wife working on the bomber. We'd do the same thing, patch em up so they can stand trial. We certainly wouldn't let them lie there until they died no matter if we have the death penalty here or not.

I would live him die on the street

Post by **Martrae** » Mon May 23, 2005 2:58 pm

That has absolutely nothing to do with whether the death penalty is a good thing or not.

Post by **Ganzo** » Mon May 23, 2005 3:01 pm

vonkaar wrote:You aren't following me.

EVERYONE is entitled to the same basic right to due process. EVERYONE receives the same 'fair' trial... the same basic rights to defense. I 'get' to defend myself for public intoxication just as an accused murderer 'gets' to defend himself. A "Kill em quick" mindset is completely bypassing that right.

No Vonkaar, it is you who missed my point.

Ganzo wrote:bullet in the head outside the courthouse once sentanced is sufficient

see i'm all for Fair Trial, and Due Process, i'm against the thing that happens after. Hell i'll even agree to you in some way and give them 1 appeal after sentancing.

Post by **Ganzo** » Mon May 23, 2005 3:02 pm

Martrae wrote:That has absolutely nothing to do with whether the death penalty is a good thing or not.

You are correct. My point was about what happens after.

Post by **Lyion** » Mon May 23, 2005 3:17 pm

Hmm, get rid of your desire to kill and we're not too far apart, Ganzo.

As for me, I'd prefer to sentence them to hard labor for the rest of their lives. I am staunchly anti death penalty. Yes Xao, I'm pretty much against war, too, except I can see the need to kill in self defense or national defense. Neither of those are crimes to me, and not a form of punishment at all.

Post by **Ganzo** » Mon May 23, 2005 3:30 pm

I have no desire to kill anyone. I would love if we could live in machiah society. However i see killing murderers, rapist, etc. as preventive warfare on crime. War against another country, to prevent them from invadin and/or killing our citizen is same as killing murderer to prevent him and others like him from doing it again. And killing few inocent who were wrongfuly convicted is no difrent than killing 1000's of civilians during war. It is tragic but it's the cost of war.

Post by **Lyion** » Mon May 23, 2005 3:36 pm

Locked up murderers and rapists aren't murdering and raping. Plus, we can actually have ample time to fix the wrongs of a few, versus saying sorry to their tombstone.

Post by **Ganzo** » Mon May 23, 2005 3:39 pm

I would not want my taxes to pay for life of a man who killed my close one.

Why are we talking in circles

Post by **Lyion** » Mon May 23, 2005 3:47 pm

Hard Labor, man. SLAVE labor

Thats not exactly a day spa. Twelve hour days with no privileges for the rest of their lives.

We're talking in circles so I can influence you to my point of view!

Post by **Ganzo** » Mon May 23, 2005 3:52 pm

Lyion wrote:Hard Labor, man. SLAVE labor

Thats not exactly a day spa. Twelve hour days with no privileges for the rest of their lives.

We're talking in circles so I can influence you to my point of view!

slave labor = high chance of escape=need more security=higher cost.
how many slaves will we need to maintain cost less than production?