Your tax dollars at work

[Ganzo]

I disagree with you so instead of listening to your arguments and posting my own, i'll do personal attacks to "win"

[Lueyen]

[vonkaar]

Uh... sure, there was a *bit* of biased humor in my reply... but, are you going to ignore my 'actual' points?

We are discussing "possible" change here. I shouldn't have to show how abolishing the death-penalty is a VERY REAL possibility... but you seem to think making slaves out of the convicted is kosher? That's lightsabres and fairies. My solution is the civilized 'fix' to a barbaric practise. Much of the world is swinging my way. The US is aligned with shining examples such as The Congo, Libya, China, Iran and Pakistan in its death penalty practises. Three of those countries have executed prisoners by BEHEADING since 1990. Since then, 31 countries have completely abolished this inhumane act (DP). The US has only increased its killing. My 'idea' IS in the realm of REALITY. You are prancing with Peter Pan.

Clear yet?

[Diekan]

So what do you suggest? Give 'em a heathy of dose of Prozac and *understand* that they are only the way they are because "mommy didn't want me" and "daddy used to 'touch' me?*

Yeah, let's just lock them up for 15 years at a time so they can enjoy air conditioned jail cells, cable TV, basketball, working out, and hell... let's just pay for them to get college degrees while we're at it. I mean after all it's the victims fault for being in the wrong place and the wrong time.

You want to try and bring them back to normality - go right ahead. Waste your time... waste your money. Let them back out into society so they can turn right around and commit the SAME damn crime again.

There are certain types of crimes that just don't deserve anything but the harshed punishment possible. Rape, murder, child molestation. You think these animals DESERVE a second chance? Are you fucking kidding me? You think we should waste our time and energy catering to THEIR problems? Trying to *fix* them?

And, you think I'M crazy?

No.

The answer is pure and simple... K.I.L.L. THEM.

[Ganzo]

Uh... sure, there was a *bit* of biased humor in my reply... but, are you going to ignore my 'actual' points?

We are discussing "possible" change here. I shouldn't have to show how abolishing the death-penalty is a VERY REAL possibility... but you seem to think making slaves out of the convicted is kosher? That's lightsabres and fairies. My solution is the civilized 'fix' to a barbaric practise. Much of the world is swinging my way. The US is aligned with shining examples such as The Congo, Libya, China, Iran and Pakistan in its death penalty practises. Three of those countries have executed prisoners by BEHEADING since 1990. Since then, 31 countries have completely abolished this inhumane act (DP). The US has only increased its killing. My 'idea' IS in the realm of REALITY. You are prancing with Peter Pan.

Clear yet?

So far aside from attacks on my words, i've yet to hear a proposition of solution to violent crimes problem that continues to escalate. I know you are against death penalty, you've made it clear many times before. Current jail system does not work. Abolishing death penalty will just add to number of life sentanced inmates on my tax dollar.

I think in years that i've been posting you could see that i never propose PC solutions. I know it seems barbaric and harsh, but i belive that implementing hars punishments will solve problem. Not right away but over relatively short period of time.

You want to fix the world with words and flowers, and i would want nothing else if i thought that would actualy work. Unfortunatly I do not belive you can "fix" a man who decided to forget his humanity and turned into animal.

[Lyion]

Again the problems relate to the laws of the land. We cannot go against the constitution.

1. No Cruel and Unusual punishment.

2. In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury where the crime has been committed,

Whatever you propose must adhere to those standards. I'm for harsh punishment but in my mind execution definitely crosses the line of #1. Some of your other suggestions kill #2. Those two things are part of the Bill of Rights and are sacrosanct.

Whatever changes we make to our system needs to adhere to personal rights.

Its not a simple black and white issue of 'solving' crime, Ganzo. Sure, we could institute Sharia law with one appeal and start lopping off hands, heads, and stoning people to death but I'd prefer if we kept our individual liberties and allowed people the benefit of the doubt, and punished in a way that a civilized country should. A rapist behind bars for their life is no more a threat than one executed, and the cost with appeals is less for life imprisonment.

[Ganzo]

We have 2 difrent dreams Lyion: You of punishing crimes, and I of preventing them.

At the time of whring 2 of those points worked, unfortunatly they do not now. Constitution is not set in stone and is there to be ajustable with times.

[Lyion]

Preventing crime begins at the home, and not at the courthouse.

We have one of the strictest judicial systems in the first world, and yet our crime rate is astronomical. Why is that, Ganzo?

Also, many non violent criminals get caught up in our exuberance to be harsh.

I agree with you we need to redo the system, and be harsher to violent criminals, but again our Bill of Rights is the best document in the world in regards to rights and I would not see it tossed away.

[Ganzo]

Ya, like sticking a man into jail, to be raped, beaten and tortured by other inmates for years is not

1. No Cruel and Unusual punishment.

As far as prevention at home:

Country's jails represent it's society.

[Gidan]

Diekan, I am a bit confused by who you want to kill and who you dont. Why is it that a woman killing her husband and the woman he is in bed with is any different then killing somone at an ATM. They are all still dead, they were killed not in self defence or to save somone. They were all murdered, why should they be treated differently?

Also, why is it that so many people think that the threat of death is going to prevent crime? The people committing the crime do not plan on getting caught. They dont plan on standing trial, they dont plan to die or spend life in prison. The death penalty will not prevent crime, you can not learn from the death penalty. Crimals dont learn from the death penalty, they think "Well he was a dumb ass, I wont get caught".

We try to teach our children that 2 wrongs dont make a right. Why is it that we cant see that ourselves? Somone kills, so what do we do? we kill becaues somehow killing the killer makes everything beter? All the death penalty does is promote revenge, becasue that what the death penalty is. Its the way for the family and friends as well as the government to get revenge on the criminal for their actions.

Put the criminals behind bars, make them perform manual labor. Dont give them all the comforts of home.

[Lyion]

Diekan, I am a bit confused by who you want to kill and who you dont. Why is it that a woman killing her husband and the woman he is in bed with is any different then killing somone at an ATM. They are all still dead, they were killed not in self defence or to save somone. They were all murdered, why should they be treated differently?

We try to teach our children that 2 wrongs dont make a right. Why is it that we cant see that ourselves? Somone kills, so what do we do? we kill becaues somehow killing the killer makes everything beter? All the death penalty does is promote revenge, becasue that what the death penalty is. Its the way for the family and friends as well as the government to get revenge on the criminal for their actions.

Put the criminals behind bars, make them perform manual labor. Dont give them all the comforts of home.

Mitigating circumstances, Gidan. A person who is GOOD, but loses control due to an act is much different than someone who commits premeditated murder.

A guy who sneaks into your home and shoots you to steal your stuff is more of a criminal than a drunk who gets sucker punched by another drunk, and accidently kills him in a bar fight. Both are crimes, but they are vastly different.

[Gidan]

People are responsible for their actions. If you kill somone because your drunk or in a fit of rage should, it shouldn't make any difference, you still killed them. If a women walks into a room where her husband is in bed with another women and she kills them, I would not call get a GOOD person, she is murderer.

The only mitigating circumstances I can see are if you are defending your own life or the life of somone else.

[Lyion]

People are responsible for their actions. If you kill somone because your drunk or in a fit of rage should, it shouldn't make any difference, you still killed them. If a women walks into a room where her husband is in bed with another women and she kills them, I would not call get a GOOD person, she is murderer.

The only mitigating circumstances I can see are if you are defending your own life or the life of somone else.

Right, but a thief murdering someone stealing their stuff is an imminent threat to steal and kill again. A woman killing her husband is not really an imminent threat(unless she remarries), since this was not premeditated and was a 'manslaughter' act of passion versus premeditated crime and murder.

Say your child is in college and gets hit in the head with a rock by another. Then the bully laughs and walks away, and your kids jumps him and pounds him and accidently kills him. Should his punishment be the same as one who premeditates murder?

[Gidan]

Somone who murders in cold blood is a threat to murder again. Acts of passion are bullshit. You are responsible for your actions. Premeditated or not, it murder. Killing your husband and his bed buddy is not manslaughter, there is intent to kill, it murder.

[vonkaar]

Rofl...

Ya, like sticking a man into jail, to be raped, beaten and tortured by other inmates for years is not

Yeah... that's by design. We design the prison system to be a system of torture.
/sarcasm
You ARE talking about changing the design of the system. Kill em all! WOOOO WHEEE!!!
We are talking about abolishing a abhorrant, barbaric system - one that we are leading the world in.

We have 2 difrent dreams Lyion: You of punishing crimes, and I of preventing them.

How does LWOP 'not' prevent crime? Murdering a human in prison is a crime in itself, but that's rather subjective. Killing a man - especially in our current 'broke as fuck' capital punishment system - isn't punishment... it isn't prevention. It's more costly... it's *less* of a punishment than a life-sentence. I don't understand your comparison.

There are certain types of crimes that just don't deserve anything but the harshed punishment possible. Rape, murder, child molestation. You think these animals DESERVE a second chance?

I've said ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about rehabilitation. You are putting words in my mouth. All I've argued against, ever since I entered into this discussion, is the murder of humans in prison. If you want to talk harsher LIFE sentencing, go right ahead. I'm all for it. The current death-penalty system is horrendously broken - killing more people won't fix it.

It won't deter anything. It rarely makes anyone feel any better (one study showed that as little as 23% of victims families felt ANY sort of resolution after seeing the murderer die). The murder rate in Canada has dropped by 40% since they abolished the death penalty nearly 30 years ago. New York Times did a study in 2002 that showed a 48% to 101% higher murder rate in states WITH the death penalty than those without. Seems related to me.

Stop burning tax money on this broken system. Catch up to the rest of the civilized world. The average life sentence costs tax payers $4-500k a piece. There were two major studies on the costs of death-penalty cases and the results were astounding. The first study (in 2000) came back with a $2-3million number. The second, more recent one (2004) showed a much higher figure - as much as $7million. In 1991, New Jersey spent $16 million on executions. In 1992, they laid off over 500 police officers due to a lack of funds.



seems related to me

We haven't even touched on the racial bias or juvenile offender topics yet... it doesn't matter.

Your solution is insipid. Ganzo's slavery proposal is comical at best. Neither one of us can fix the judicial system but we *can* work to putting a stop to these needless and fruitless murders. Or, we can digress a few hundred years and lynch more colored folk. WOOO WEEEE!

[Martrae]

Once a criminal, always a criminal.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050524/D8A9JLKO1.html

[Ganzo]

Rofl...

Ya, like sticking a man into jail, to be raped, beaten and tortured by other inmates for years is not

Yeah... that's by design. We design the prison system to be a system of torture.
/sarcasm
You ARE talking about changing the design of the system. Kill em all! WOOOO WHEEE!!!
We are talking about abolishing a abhorrant, barbaric system - one that we are leading the world in.

We have 2 difrent dreams Lyion: You of punishing crimes, and I of preventing them.

How does LWOP 'not' prevent crime? Murdering a human in prison is a crime in itself, but that's rather subjective. Killing a man - especially in our current 'broke as fuck' capital punishment system - isn't punishment... it isn't prevention. It's more costly... it's *less* of a punishment than a life-sentence. I don't understand your comparison.

There are certain types of crimes that just don't deserve anything but the harshed punishment possible. Rape, murder, child molestation. You think these animals DESERVE a second chance?

I've said ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about rehabilitation. You are putting words in my mouth. All I've argued against, ever since I entered into this discussion, is the murder of humans in prison. If you want to talk harsher LIFE sentencing, go right ahead. I'm all for it. The current death-penalty system is horrendously broken - killing more people won't fix it.

It won't deter anything. It rarely makes anyone feel any better (one study showed that as little as 23% of victims families felt ANY sort of resolution after seeing the murderer die). The murder rate in Canada has dropped by 40% since they abolished the death penalty nearly 30 years ago. New York Times did a study in 2002 that showed a 48% to 101% higher murder rate in states WITH the death penalty than those without. Seems related to me.

Stop burning tax money on this broken system. Catch up to the rest of the civilized world. The average life sentence costs tax payers $4-500k a piece. There were two major studies on the costs of death-penalty cases and the results were astounding. The first study (in 2000) came back with a $2-3million number. The second, more recent one (2004) showed a much higher figure - as much as $7million. In 1991, New Jersey spent $16 million on executions. In 1992, they laid off over 500 police officers due to a lack of funds.



seems related to me

We haven't even touched on the racial bias or juvenile offender topics yet... it doesn't matter.

Your solution is insipid. Ganzo's slavery proposal is comical at best. Neither one of us can fix the judicial system but we *can* work to putting a stop to these needless and fruitless murders. Or, we can digress a few hundred years and lynch more colored folk. WOOO WEEEE!

If you don't want to read post but just skim over them in order to pick frases to disprove, go for it. I'm done.

If i wanted to have a one sided conversation i could have picked a argument with Mindia.

[vonkaar]

Ya, like sticking a man into jail, to be raped, beaten and tortured by other inmates for years is not

1. No Cruel and Unusual punishment.

As far as prevention at home:

Country's jails represent it's society.

That's all I 'picked' out...

One Dostoyevsky quote...



Quit crying... I gave you 300 points in that last bit and you didn't respond. I've covered every other point you've made... 'flowers' ? I never mentioned rehabilitation...

What else have I missed?

[Lyion]

Somone who murders in cold blood is a threat to murder again. Acts of passion are bullshit. You are responsible for your actions. Premeditated or not, it murder. Killing your husband and his bed buddy is not manslaughter, there is intent to kill, it murder.

Right, but do you think killing should be broken down into involuntary manslaughter, voluntary manslaugher, murder 2, and murder 1 or just have everyone who kills lumped into Murder 1/2?

Ganzo, the problem we have is in overhauling the system in a way that does not effect our Bill of Rights, continues to provide harsh punishments, but also ensures the punishments fit the crime. I couldn't disagree with writing a countrys jails represent its population. Many in our jail are criminals from Cuba and other countries.

[Gidan]

If someone dies at your hands due to an accident should not be considered murder. If you’re in a rage and you kill someone that’s murder. If you attack someone with intent to injure and you kill the person, that’s murder.

[Donnel]

Once a criminal, always a criminal.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050524/D8A9JLKO1.html

'Attorney Richard Rosenbaum, who has represented Tate, told The Associated Press that Tate and his mother called him as he was being arrested. "I heard he jacked a pizza delivery guy, which I can't believe happened," Rosenbaum said. "I'm shocked and appalled."'

I thought Lawyers had to go through alot of schooling? How do you pass the bar when you make statements like "I heard he jacked a pizza delivery guy".

[Gidan]

I have known some of the stupidest lawyers you could imagine.

[Jimmy Durante]

Lionel Hutz.

[Lyion]

Steve Young got his law degree and passed the bar after 150 concussions. That should speak volumes to you.

[vonkaar]

He also has 400 grandmothers.