More evolutionary lies.

[Tuggan]

im thinking wrath has nihilism and atheism confused.

[Yamori]

Here's the dictionary definition of morality:

The relation of conformity or nonconformity to the moral
standard or rule

Interesting. Why do you have a strict sense of morality?
From where does your Morality stem?

I don't necessarily agree with wrath, but he brings some interesting points.

My morality comes from reason, the description of it I have already given. Morals and values come from the existence of life, the prerequisite of all other values. If you are able to correctly see what is necessary to maintain life of humans, you can come up with an objective moral system that has no need for god.

Part of this includes how you treat other people. And it is pretty obvious that it is NOT good for YOUR life if you violate other people's rights. If you live by the sword, you die by the sword. If you instill fear in others, you will live in fear. Society correctly reinforces this with its laws - if you use force on other people, men with guns will use force on you an imprison you. Oppositely, if you respect other people, you will most likely be respected.

Religious morality has a lot of problems because it does not have a foundation on earth, it has a foundation in a most probably fictional dimension.

This creates two problems:

1) If someone does not believe in the probably fictional dimension, but still believes that ethics and morality are the sole domain of religion, the entire concept of morality becomes a joke.

2) A morality based on another world allows for bizarre behavior and attitudes to be easily accepted as a norm - behavior and attitudes that if looked at from a realistic perspective, are unhealthy. This includes ideas such as sex being a sin, birth control being a sin, skeptical thoughts being a sin, ect.

[Tuggan]

there was law well before the bible dipshit.

You don't say! So I'm guessing anything that becomes legal under the law is OK with you then? That means slavery was right, because it was the law! How about that! I won't bother to mention what's going on in your future homeland, North Korea since it's all fine and dandy with you what "dear leader" is doing to his people. Because it's the LAW! I like that! It's the law! How convenient.

Maybe we could change the law and kill off all females past the ripe old age of 25. Gah, all those wrinkles are just hideous to have to look at! We just need to make it the law and it's all good with Tuggan!

are you going to be our new longwinded annoying conservative that will try to make a play of words to babble on and on?

you state that all morality, and all rights and wrongs stem from religion. the basic laws of 'dont kill' and 'dont steal' were in place LONG before christianity.

[Yamori]

That a society can't work if people are allowed to kill/steal/ect is a simple idea. You don't need god to figure it out.

[Gidan]

there was law well before the bible dipshit.

You don't say! So I'm guessing anything that becomes legal under the law is OK with you then? That means slavery was right, because it was the law! How about that! I won't bother to mention what's going on in your future homeland, North Korea since it's all fine and dandy with you what "dear leader" is doing to his people. Because it's the LAW! I like that! It's the law! How convenient.

Maybe we could change the law and kill off all females past the ripe old age of 25. Gah, all those wrinkles are just hideous to have to look at! We just need to make it the law and it's all good with Tuggan!

So you admit there were laws that were not based upon religious beliefs.

Yes you make statements like this

You can do ANYTHING you can get away with and there's no need to worry about consequences.

Your statements are not adding up.

[Wrath Child]

If you don't believe in a higher power, then there really is no right or wrong. No good or evil. No sins to ask to be forgiven. Does the wolf ask the deer to forgive him for devouring her fawn? Of course not! That's the beauty of being an atheist! As long as you're the most powerful in any given situation, you're RIGHT!

Uh, no.

I'm an atheist and I have a very strict sense of morality.

Whats good is what furthers human life, whats evil is that which hinders it.

There are many people that come to my city for the generous benefits we offer. They take and take but only replace what they take with grief: theft, shootings, stabbings, rape and murder. If we were able to round them all up and permanently remove them from our society here, it would further our community. Our streets would be far safer. Our schools would once again become places of learning rather than daycare for future criminals. So does that makes them evil in your eyes.

I would imagine the same can be said for the disabled. Shall we kill everyone born with Downs Syndrome at birth? And Cerebral palsy? They certainly don't further human evolution yet they eat up tremendous resources better spent elsewhere.

Need I go on or do I understand your belief in right and wrong perfectly?

[Yamori]

There are many people that come to my city for the generous benefits we offer. They take and take but only replace what they take with grief: theft, shootings, stabbings, rape and murder. If we were able to round them all up and permanently remove them from our society here, it would further our community. Our streets would be far safer. Our schools would once again become places of learning rather than daycare for future criminals. So does that makes them evil in your eyes.

I am for all violent criminals being removed from society and placed in jail for very long periods of time. I am not for the death penalty because innocent people can be killed by it. Life imprisonment should only occur with some murderers or repeat offenders.

Anyone who robs, kills, or rapes is acting as a threat to life, so yes, they are evil.

I would imagine the same can be said for the disabled. Shall we kill everyone born with Downs Syndrome at birth? And Cerebral palsy? They certainly don't further human evolution yet they eat up tremendous resources better spent elsewhere.

These people aren't hurting anyone, or violating anyone's rights. I know people with mental disabilities and mental illness who still have things to offer. There is no reason to do anything about them. It is up to families, friends, or charities to take care of them though, if they can't take care of themselves.

[Wrath Child]

there was law well before the bible dipshit.

You don't say! So I'm guessing anything that becomes legal under the law is OK with you then? That means slavery was right, because it was the law! How about that! I won't bother to mention what's going on in your future homeland, North Korea since it's all fine and dandy with you what "dear leader" is doing to his people. Because it's the LAW! I like that! It's the law! How convenient.

Maybe we could change the law and kill off all females past the ripe old age of 25. Gah, all those wrinkles are just hideous to have to look at! We just need to make it the law and it's all good with Tuggan!

So you admit there were laws that were not based upon religious beliefs.

Yes you make statements like this

You can do ANYTHING you can get away with and there's no need to worry about consequences.

Your statements are not adding up.

You post comments like this:

If you don’t believe in God/Gods you don’t believe in the rule of law, you care for nothing other then yourself. If that were the case then an Atheist wouldn't be an Atheist at all, they would believe that they were God.

Yet you have the nerve to criticize?

BTW, I never said there wasn't laws that weren't based on religion. That's Tuggan's useless crutch. As I clearly pointed out, just because something is the law, it doesn't mean it's morally good. Hence you can't base your own morality on the law. If you do, you're an idiot.

[Gidan]

there was law well before the bible dipshit.

You don't say! So I'm guessing anything that becomes legal under the law is OK with you then? That means slavery was right, because it was the law! How about that! I won't bother to mention what's going on in your future homeland, North Korea since it's all fine and dandy with you what "dear leader" is doing to his people. Because it's the LAW! I like that! It's the law! How convenient.

Maybe we could change the law and kill off all females past the ripe old age of 25. Gah, all those wrinkles are just hideous to have to look at! We just need to make it the law and it's all good with Tuggan!

So you admit there were laws that were not based upon religious beliefs.

Yes you make statements like this

You can do ANYTHING you can get away with and there's no need to worry about consequences.

Your statements are not adding up.

You post comments like this:

If you don’t believe in God/Gods you don’t believe in the rule of law, you care for nothing other then yourself. If that were the case then an Atheist wouldn't be an Atheist at all, they would believe that they were God.

Yet you have the nerve to criticize?

BTW, I never said there wasn't laws that weren't based on religion. That's Tuggan's useless crutch. As I clearly pointed out, just because something is the law, it doesn't mean it's morally good. Hence you can't base your own morality on the law. If you do, you're an idiot.

A true atheist is unencumbered by guilt of any kind. A real bully's bully! You shouldn't care anymore for those beneath you than you do for the worms you run over when you drive in a rainstorm or the bugs you step on when you mow the lawn.

This was your statement. If you beleive that there is nothing beneith you, then you view yourself as a God. The definition of an Athiest is somone who does not beleive in a God or Gods. So your view of Athiests is not true becasue the people you are speaking of would not be considered Athiests.

I never said that was my view, it seems to be yours.

[Wrath Child]

There are many people that come to my city for the generous benefits we offer. They take and take but only replace what they take with grief: theft, shootings, stabbings, rape and murder. If we were able to round them all up and permanently remove them from our society here, it would further our community. Our streets would be far safer. Our schools would once again become places of learning rather than daycare for future criminals. So does that makes them evil in your eyes.

I am for all violent criminals being removed from society and placed in jail for very long periods of time. I am not for the death penalty because innocent people can be killed by it. Life imprisonment should only occur with some murderers or repeat offenders.

Anyone who robs, kills, or rapes is acting as a threat to life, so yes, they are evil.

Evil? How can you possibly believe in evil as an atheist. Let me guess, you believe in magic potions and curses, too! Magic is green...

I would imagine the same can be said for the disabled. Shall we kill everyone born with Downs Syndrome at birth? And Cerebral palsy? They certainly don't further human evolution yet they eat up tremendous resources better spent elsewhere.

These people aren't hurting anyone, or violating anyone's rights. I know people with mental disabilities and mental illness who still have things to offer. There is no reason to do anything about them. It is up to families, friends, or charities to take care of them though, if they can't take care of themselves.

This has nothing to do with "hurting" anyone. These people are a drain on societies resources. They pollute the gene pool. They may very well have something to offer, but I guarantee it doesn't come close to the resources spent on them.

I guess that makes you a kinder, gentler atheist.

[Tuggan]

ok...lets just say for your own sake that all morality today stems from the bible.


can you not see the difference in accepting the common placed morality without accepting the existence of a god?

[Wrath Child]

there was law well before the bible dipshit.

You don't say! So I'm guessing anything that becomes legal under the law is OK with you then? That means slavery was right, because it was the law! How about that! I won't bother to mention what's going on in your future homeland, North Korea since it's all fine and dandy with you what "dear leader" is doing to his people. Because it's the LAW! I like that! It's the law! How convenient.

Maybe we could change the law and kill off all females past the ripe old age of 25. Gah, all those wrinkles are just hideous to have to look at! We just need to make it the law and it's all good with Tuggan!

So you admit there were laws that were not based upon religious beliefs.

Yes you make statements like this

You can do ANYTHING you can get away with and there's no need to worry about consequences.

Your statements are not adding up.

You post comments like this:

If you don’t believe in God/Gods you don’t believe in the rule of law, you care for nothing other then yourself. If that were the case then an Atheist wouldn't be an Atheist at all, they would believe that they were God.

Yet you have the nerve to criticize?

BTW, I never said there wasn't laws that weren't based on religion. That's Tuggan's useless crutch. As I clearly pointed out, just because something is the law, it doesn't mean it's morally good. Hence you can't base your own morality on the law. If you do, you're an idiot.

A true atheist is unencumbered by guilt of any kind. A real bully's bully! You shouldn't care anymore for those beneath you than you do for the worms you run over when you drive in a rainstorm or the bugs you step on when you mow the lawn.

This was your statement. If you beleive that there is nothing beneith you, then you view yourself as a God. The definition of an Athiest is somone who does not beleive in a God or Gods. So your view of Athiests is not true becasue the people you are speaking of would not be considered Athiests.

I never said that was my view, it seems to be yours.

You're still not making any sense. The key phrase here was "You shouldn't care anymore for those beneath you than you do for the worms you run over when you drive in a rainstorm or the bugs you step on when you mow the lawn". The key words are "beneath you". I make no mention of those above you. Those more powerful. Those who will take from you what they want, when want. The law of the jungle.

Nor did I say anything about believing "that there is nothing beneith you, then you view yourself as a God". Please tell me english is a second or third language for you.

[Gidan]

Since you cant seem to grasp your logic problems lets break this apart.

If you don't believe in a higher power, then there really is no right or wrong.

This is just bad logic. There is nothing about right and wrong that requires the belief in a higher power. People are capable of forming their own opinions; they do not need some higher power to tell them what is right and what is wrong.

Oh my! But you might hurt someone's widdle feelings, you say. SO FUCKING WHAT! Who cares if you do? Not a true atheist.

Also another blatantly false statement. Being an atheist has nothing to do with your feeling toward other people. That is a personal ideal based on the person, not some religion. There are many religious people who couldn't care less about others as there are atheists. Its a characteristic of life, not atheists

Oh wait! I bet you grew up with some religious influence, didn't you? That's your excuse, right? That's how you know what's right or wrong? But you know religion is complete hogwash, now don't you? So why in the world would you continue to base anything off of something that is completely false.

Yet again you are assuming that all idea of right and wrong come from religion. Again I tell you, it does not require religion to determine what is right and wrong to you. It’s very possible for someone to have their own opinions on what is right and wrong, and still not believe in God/Gods. Having some ideas that another group happens to have does not mean you believe in that group.

That's the true beauty of being an atheist! You can do ANYTHING you can get away with and there's no need to worry about consequences. No lightning bolts from the heavens to fry your ass, or devils in hell waiting to skewer you with his pitchfork.

Every decision you make has consequences, regardless of whether you believe that there is heaven and hell or some punishment waiting for you after you die.

Many religions teach that you can be saved from your wrong doings, what consequences are there in those religions. All you have to do is ask to be saved.[/quote]

You might have noticed by now that there aren't any soup kitchens run by atheist groups. Or food pantries. Not even homeless shelters! And why? Because atheists don't give a flying fuck about the homeless or poor! And why should they? The homeless in the eyes of an atheist are nothing but human debris that needs to be gotten rid of! It's not like human beings are an endangered species, now is it? The sheer volume of our population alone is destroying the planet. But even if we were, it wouldn't make a damn bit of difference because THEY ARE THE WEAK AND THE WEAK MUST PERISH!

There are many charities that are run by Athiests. The difference is they dont feel the need to boast to the world about what tehy are doing for the people. Not every charity has a religion behind it.

You see, atheists are nothing but cold, empty shells of human beings. But if you have an ounce of compassion in you or a tingle of remorse, then you're not really an atheist. Because a part of you desperately clings to a closeted belief in a higher power just in case it turns out there is indeed a heaven and hell.

Feeling remorse does nto require beleife in a God/Gods. You can regret a decision without needing to beleive that there is some all power being. What I get out of this statement is you beleive people feel remorse becasue there is an afterlife and they will be judged in that afterlife and that this action will effect you in a negative way. You really could not care less about others, all you care about is yourself and you place after you die.

So which are you? Some bible thumper or the next step in evolution?

As for this, I believe that as a human, I am a step in evolution. I am not the start; I am not the end, just someplace in between.

[Yamori]

Evil? How can you possibly believe in evil as an atheist. Let me guess, you believe in magic potions and curses, too! Magic is green...

I've already stated what I view good and evil to be, and they can certainly exist in an atheist structure - just not as a supernatural force or as a devil.

This has nothing to do with "hurting" anyone. These people are a drain on societies resources. They pollute the gene pool. They may very well have something to offer, but I guarantee it doesn't come close to the resources spent on them.

It doesn't matter. If a disabled person does not infringe on anyones rights, no one has the right to do anything to them or stop them from existing. They may drain resources, but, ideally, they would only drain the resources of people who have volunteered to take care of them.

This is especially relevent to me since I actually am disabled and can't work, and am a drain on resources. But I still think I have the right to exist. But even if this weren't the case, I would have the same attitude.

[Wrath Child]

ok...lets just say for your own sake that all morality today stems from the bible.


can you not see the difference in accepting the common placed morality without accepting the existence of a god?

I never said that. Anywhere. Nor do I believe it. This started with a minor flame of Mindia and religion courtesy of Tossica. I played the devil's advocate by doing a few minor alterations to it to show that that shoe fits just as snuggly on Tossica's feet as it does on Mindia's.

You also must understand that what you perceive to be "common placed morality" might not be so "common placed" in the next valley. And if that guy in the next valley is stronger than you, your morality in all likelyhood is going to be replaced by his.

[Gidan]

A true atheist is unencumbered by guilt of any kind. A real bully's bully! You shouldn't care anymore for those beneath you than you do for the worms you run over when you drive in a rainstorm or the bugs you step on when you mow the lawn.

This was your statement. If you beleive that there is nothing beneith you, then you view yourself as a God. The definition of an Athiest is somone who does not beleive in a God or Gods. So your view of Athiests is not true becasue the people you are speaking of would not be considered Athiests.

I never said that was my view, it seems to be yours.

You're still not making any sense. The key phrase here was "You shouldn't care anymore for those beneath you than you do for the worms you run over when you drive in a rainstorm or the bugs you step on when you mow the lawn". The key words are "beneath you". I make no mention of those above you. Those more powerful. Those who will take from you what they want, when want. The law of the jungle.

Nor did I say anything about believing "that there is nothing beneith you, then you view yourself as a God". Please tell me english is a second or third language for you.

You have made 2 statements here

1) A true atheist is unencumbered by guilt of any kind. A real bully's bully!
2) You shouldn't care anymore for those beneath you than you do for the worms you run over when you drive in a rainstorm or the bugs you step on when you mow the lawn.

Your first statement is a very wide statement saying that a true atheist has no feelings of guilt.

The 2nd part of this statement either is unnecessary because you have already stated that they don’t feel guilt of any kind, or you believe that the 2nd statement reinforced the top statement because it covered all people.

So was the 2nd statement just useless information you felt the need to bless us with or do you believe that atheists believe that they are the only important people?

If an Atheist has no view of Good(right) or Evil(wrong), then it means they believe everything they do is justified and just what they do (right). Anyone who says otherwise is incorrect(wrong). If you believe him to be doing correctly, in his mind, you follow him, if you don’t your wrong as in incorrect. Both put you beneath the Atheist as you have described him.

One of the definitions of a God is a Supreme Being, a being that is above all others. If you believe all are beneath you, you believe that you are a supreme being and thus you view yourself as a God.

If you view yourself as a God you can not be an Atheist by definition because an Atheist by definition is someone who does not believe in God

[10sun]

Watch out from your high and mighty perch, for you may be knocked down.

Atheists are by no means evil, nor are those who believe in a diety.

That is the individual themselves that cause that.

-Adam

[Wrath Child]

There are many charities that are run by Athiests. The difference is they dont feel the need to boast to the world about what tehy are doing for the people. Not every charity has a religion behind it.

Just for shits giggles, name me 5 charities run by Atheist groups that serve the communities they exist in. Local ones are just fine.

[Wrath Child]

A true atheist is unencumbered by guilt of any kind. A real bully's bully! You shouldn't care anymore for those beneath you than you do for the worms you run over when you drive in a rainstorm or the bugs you step on when you mow the lawn.

This was your statement. If you beleive that there is nothing beneith you, then you view yourself as a God. The definition of an Athiest is somone who does not beleive in a God or Gods. So your view of Athiests is not true becasue the people you are speaking of would not be considered Athiests.

I never said that was my view, it seems to be yours.

You're still not making any sense. The key phrase here was "You shouldn't care anymore for those beneath you than you do for the worms you run over when you drive in a rainstorm or the bugs you step on when you mow the lawn". The key words are "beneath you". I make no mention of those above you. Those more powerful. Those who will take from you what they want, when want. The law of the jungle.

Nor did I say anything about believing "that there is nothing beneith you, then you view yourself as a God". Please tell me english is a second or third language for you.

You have made 2 statements here

1) A true atheist is unencumbered by guilt of any kind. A real bully's bully!
2) You shouldn't care anymore for those beneath you than you do for the worms you run over when you drive in a rainstorm or the bugs you step on when you mow the lawn.

Your first statement is a very wide statement saying that a true atheist has no feelings of guilt.

The 2nd part of this statement either is unnecessary because you have already stated that they don’t feel guilt of any kind, or you believe that the 2nd statement reinforced the top statement because it covered all people.

So was the 2nd statement just useless information you felt the need to bless us with or do you believe that atheists believe that they are the only important people?

If an Atheist has no view of Good(right) or Evil(wrong), then it means they believe everything they do is justified and just what they do (right). Anyone who says otherwise is wrong as in incorrect. If you believe him to be doing correctly, in his mind, you follow him, if you don’t your wrong as in incorrect. Both put you beneath the Atheist as you have described him.

One of the definitions of a God is a Supreme Being, a being that is above all others. If you believe all are beneath you, you believe that you are a supreme being and thus you view yourself as a God.

If you view yourself as a God you can not be an Atheist by definition because an Atheist by definition is someone who does not believe in God

You know the difference between you and I?

You're seriously ridiculous while I'm being ridiculous as a goof.

[Yamori]

There are many charities that are run by Athiests. The difference is they dont feel the need to boast to the world about what tehy are doing for the people. Not every charity has a religion behind it.

Just for shits giggles, name me 5 charities run by Atheist groups that serve the communities they exist in. Local ones are just fine.

There are a lot of charity groups with no religious affiliation. What would be the point in starting a charity specifically for atheism? There are plenty of atheists who work in charity groups and contribute to them, I'm sure.

[Tikker]

There are many charities that are run by Athiests. The difference is they dont feel the need to boast to the world about what tehy are doing for the people. Not every charity has a religion behind it.

Just for shits giggles, name me 5 charities run by Atheist groups that serve the communities they exist in. Local ones are just fine.

Canadian National Institue for the Blind
Kidney Foundation
24 hour relay (sends kids to camp)
Girl Guides
Boy Scouts
Computers for Schools
Telephone Pioneers


let me know if you'd like me to list the other 50 or so charitable organizations I know of that have no formal religious ties

[Lyion]

Having no formal religious affiliation and being run and supported by Atheists are not one in the same.

The Boy Scouts charter is all about 'God' you know.

[Gidan]

There are many charities that are run by Athiests. The difference is they dont feel the need to boast to the world about what tehy are doing for the people. Not every charity has a religion behind it.

Just for shits giggles, name me 5 charities run by Atheist groups that serve the communities they exist in. Local ones are just fine.

The thing you don’t understand is that Atheists don’t start charities under the flag of Atheism, there is no such flag. To them being atheist is just part of every day life. You seem to want to associate Atheism with a religion. Its not, being atheist just means you don’t believe in god, it really is that simple. There are no set of rules and guild lines, some goal as a group. They are not a group; they are just people who do not believe in god.

An Atheist starts, runs or donates to a charity because he/she thinks is a good thing. If you try and search for Atheist charities you will have trouble finding them, this isn't because atheists don’t give or help others it’s just simply because they don’t advertise being Atheist because to them it’s like advertising that you eat or sleep.

[Gidan]

A true atheist is unencumbered by guilt of any kind. A real bully's bully! You shouldn't care anymore for those beneath you than you do for the worms you run over when you drive in a rainstorm or the bugs you step on when you mow the lawn.

This was your statement. If you beleive that there is nothing beneith you, then you view yourself as a God. The definition of an Athiest is somone who does not beleive in a God or Gods. So your view of Athiests is not true becasue the people you are speaking of would not be considered Athiests.

I never said that was my view, it seems to be yours.

You're still not making any sense. The key phrase here was "You shouldn't care anymore for those beneath you than you do for the worms you run over when you drive in a rainstorm or the bugs you step on when you mow the lawn". The key words are "beneath you". I make no mention of those above you. Those more powerful. Those who will take from you what they want, when want. The law of the jungle.

Nor did I say anything about believing "that there is nothing beneith you, then you view yourself as a God". Please tell me english is a second or third language for you.

You have made 2 statements here

1) A true atheist is unencumbered by guilt of any kind. A real bully's bully!
2) You shouldn't care anymore for those beneath you than you do for the worms you run over when you drive in a rainstorm or the bugs you step on when you mow the lawn.

Your first statement is a very wide statement saying that a true atheist has no feelings of guilt.

The 2nd part of this statement either is unnecessary because you have already stated that they don’t feel guilt of any kind, or you believe that the 2nd statement reinforced the top statement because it covered all people.

So was the 2nd statement just useless information you felt the need to bless us with or do you believe that atheists believe that they are the only important people?

If an Atheist has no view of Good(right) or Evil(wrong), then it means they believe everything they do is justified and just what they do (right). Anyone who says otherwise is wrong as in incorrect. If you believe him to be doing correctly, in his mind, you follow him, if you don’t your wrong as in incorrect. Both put you beneath the Atheist as you have described him.

One of the definitions of a God is a Supreme Being, a being that is above all others. If you believe all are beneath you, you believe that you are a supreme being and thus you view yourself as a God.

If you view yourself as a God you can not be an Atheist by definition because an Atheist by definition is someone who does not believe in God

You know the difference between you and I?

You're seriously ridiculous while I'm being ridiculous as a goof.

Yet you continue to try and defent your rediculas statements. So if this was all just you goofing off.

What is your real view on Atheism?

[mofish]

You know the difference between you and I?

You're seriously ridiculous while I'm being ridiculous as a goof.

The only ridiculous person in this thread is you.