How do the uber guilds handle group / raid loot?

[Agrajag]

I said a hunter is NO MATCH for a rogue or warrior in melee combat, lol. Once I get 60, though, I'd like to give it a shot at you, Taxx. Just to see where I need to improve.

[Tikker]

I do know that my 58 hunter uses daggers. The hunter and rogue agi/sta are important. I could see if a hunter may want a rogue dagger where it would be a toss up.

this is kind of the problem here

there's no way a hunter should ever take a dagger out of the hands of a rogue

just like there's no way a rogue should take a bow/gun from a hunter

[The Kizzy]

What if that hunter relys on daggers?

[Tikker]

then they should delete, and re roll a rogue


there's absolutely no reason to choose dps daggers as a hunter, other than the fact that it's a skill you could use

now if you were picking up the mana regen daggers, you might have a case, even tho you'd be foolish to take them away from a priest/shaman/warlock

at least there all 4 classes would use them for the passive mana regen

[Gidan]

If a hunter is relying on melee he is doing something wrong. They are for more useful with range dmg.

[The Kizzy]

But who are you to tell ssomeone how to play their class? I use a dagger on my mage, and I melee quite a bit

[Tikker]

it's not even so much that Gidan


Hunters take a huge duel wield penalty (instant 24% miss rate instead of the innate 5% miss rate of 2 handers)

Hunter melee is all about the landing of wing clip, and the getting the fuck outta dodge, cause you just can't go toe to toe with a similarly equipped rogue/warrior (at lvl 40 you could jabown them in melee if you were BST specced, but at 60, the gap has opened enough you don't have a chance)

so a 24% chance to miss your snare, or a 5%

the stats on 2handers are also generally better than 2 comparable 1 handers

also half your repair costs (on weapons)on a class that's already expensive to maintain

[Tacks]

This is one of the exact arguements Kizzy always got into with me.

There are people who want to help the guild improve and there are people who care only about themselves and want personal gain before anything. We boot the latter.

I'd love to see a mage melee me, that would be totally preferrable over them nuking me. Even with a 100 dps dagger. Lets see here, drop a nuke for 1200 or poke a mob with a dagger for 50? yeah...

[Tikker]

But who are you to tell ssomeone how to play their class? I use a dagger on my mage, and I melee quite a bit

well, it really comes down to greed

a warrior that pulls sometimes feels like he should have a bow with really good stats (he's got a ranged slot, and stats he can get there are a bonus)

any old bow will let him pull, but he'd like the stats


a hunter will use the bow for the DPS ability, as well as the ranged slot stats

it would be silly to have the warrior take the bow before a hunter, even tho the warrior uses the bow to pull once in a while, and would make use of the stats


but if you're hung up on only what can improve your own char, go nuts
that's what DKP is for

[The Kizzy]

I guess I don't agree. Taxx mentions helping the guild. Ok, so one or two people get the good gear and the rest wait for scraps? I don't melee 100% of the time, but I do chain pull, and when I am out of mana, you bet I count on my dagger.

[Agrajag]

I didn't mean to get people bitching at each other. I only meant to bring up a question and get an answer that Ralph will inevitably have to deal with.

Each player has his/her own play style. Can we leave it at that, please?

[Lyion]

What it should come down to is 'fairness'. Everything you are saying makes perfect sense, Tikker, but really if someone wants something, and has a goal of getting it, why should they be disallowed?

Thats the beauty of the DKP system, people can buy what they want, when they want it. They earn the points, they should be able to get what they want. If the rogue thinks he needs it more, he should raid more or buy less other items.

The problem with officer assigned loot is its always biased and based on a caste system

Technically, you are all right, but in a situation like that fairness and equality should always win out.

In my opinion, of course.

p.s. The entire raiding thing is about greed. Thats what farming a zone is after the first time through, period.

[Mop]

I guess I don't agree. Taxx mentions helping the guild. Ok, so one or two people get the good gear and the rest wait for scraps? I don't melee 100% of the time, but I do chain pull, and when I am out of mana, you bet I count on my dagger.

I tink you are missing a over all point - that a mages melee to the guild < a rogues melee to a guild..I et you would be mighty hot if a rogue wanted cloth armor that would be better for you, just because *sometimes* they need the int and spirit on it.

[Agrajag]

Sometimes farming a zone after the first time isn't really about greed, but equiping the guild to go against Badassmob_x14 in the future. But for most people, farming IS about getting the better gear and greed fo money.

[Mop]

im all aout farming, I made 10 gold last night in gnomerganganganga (sp np) so i could buy my horse > < which I am still 30 gold away from = (

[Tacks]

No, people don't get scraps, there really aren't many "scraps". Just because you think you should be allowed to loot ANY item that looks pretty for you doesn't mean you should actually get it.

Think of how a raid group would end up after a time ending up with gear that made absolutely no sense in getting.

Anyways the meleeing Mage arguement is moot since Mages CANNOT melee in the zones we're talking about. I'm assuming we mean MC/Onyxia/Kazzak/Azuregos. You're not getting anywhere near those mobs and if you are then you're doing something wrong.

Kizzy I don't think you understand loot distribution in these zones, correct me if I'm wrong. Most items in MC are set items with class only loot. The other items are items anyone can wear. Out of those items the VAST majority are obviously class specific, they just don't say class:only. This is a good thing I think since after a time you are going to get things rotting in which case those classes who weren't good matches for loot can then waste (imo) their points on minimal upgrades.

[The Kizzy]

First of all, noone here is arguing, we are having a discussion. Secondly, if a dagger drops with int spirit, agility and stamina, and I have the most points, then why shouldn't I be able to bid on it? If a dagger drops with strength and agility and stamina, while it may be an upgrade in those departments, I should be looking for intelligence and spirit. Does that make sense?

[Harrison]

But who are you to tell ssomeone how to play their class? I use a dagger on my mage, and I melee quite a bit

That is why DKP sucks ass sometimes.

Mages getting Rogue daggers

[Tacks]

EDIT: added Allakhazam links for Agrajag

Well seeing as there are no daggers like that in the game, I don't think it's a good arguement.

Here are the daggers I use. What desire would you have to loot them? Why would you ever want these?
http://www.thottbot.com/?i=36280gutgore
http://wow.allakhazam.com/item.html?witem=17071gutgore
http://www.thottbot.com/?i=37469CHT
http://wow.allakhazam.com/item.html?witem=18805CHT
as compared to caster daggers...now what is your desire to loot these comparitively?

http://www.thottbot.com/?i=37351Sorcerous
http://wow.allakhazam.com/item.html?witem=18878Sorcerous
http://www.thottbot.com/?i=38745Fang
http://wow.allakhazam.com/item.html?witem=17070Fang

Discuss

[Agrajag]

I wish I could look at Thottbot at work... You made me cry, Taxx, by posting what I cannot look at...

[Mop]

1. because I am a loot whore
2. I do not like you

there for I would ninja loot all


=P <3

[10sun]

I used to cheat systems like that with like minded leather classes in EQ. We wouldn't bid on drops for our armor type until they went to half or free. Thus we hoarded DKP.

-Adam

[Tacks]

We avoid that problem by not discounting armor prices for just that reason. If nobody takes something then you /random for it and the winner gets either the gold it sells for or the disenchanted shards.

Added links for you Agrajag

[Captain Insano]

Taxx so what you are saying is that, while you have a DKP system, officers retain veto rights so to speak on loot?

Meaning that if a dumbass warlock decides to try and get the uber rogue dagger the officers can smack him/her down?

Hmmm that is a very good idea. The reason I am basically beating this horse to death is I intend to do a detailed right up. So that when loot disputes occur the members of the guild know what to expect beforehand. I think this will minimize the bitching.

Loot is always a pain in the ass in these games and the cause of more strife than anything else. I intend to minimize the impact it has on my guild.

[Gidan]

I used to cheat systems like that with like minded leather classes in EQ. We wouldn't bid on drops for our armor type until they went to half or free. Thus we hoarded DKP.

-Adam

We fixed that issue, if no one wanted the item at full price it rotted. It was all or nothing. Specificly for that reason. People wouldn't bid on things becasue they knew others were not going to bid, then would jump all over it when we discouted it. Doesn't take long to realise that people are trying to work the system that way and it was an easy fix.