What can we know for sure?

Yamori · Post by **Yamori** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 4:39 pm

Philosophically speaking... What can we know for SURE? I mean, absolutely, positively, 100% sure?

I think we can be sure of the foundations of introspection and extrospection:

1) I exist

2) Existence exists

Do you think there is anything else we can know for absolutely certain? (Or do you disagree?) I'd be interested in hearing views on this. I think there are, but I'd like to hear what other people have to say first.

Post by **Ganzo** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 4:52 pm

I disagree, with 1

Post by **Tossica** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 5:06 pm

I know that Tacos are delicious.

brinstar · Post by **brinstar** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 5:06 pm

"this too shall pass"

Yamori · Post by **Yamori** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 5:22 pm

Ganzo wrote:I disagree, with 1

With the fact that the person known under the screen name of Yamori exists, or whether you, Ganzo exist?

labbats · Post by **labbats** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 5:48 pm

Why don't you read some philosophy and follow the ideas of someone who already started that line of thinking? You'll start into the existence of God proven/disproven. It's pretty fascinating stuff actually. Are you in college Yamori? I suggest Philosophy 101. I couldn't get enough of it.

Post by **Ganzo** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 7:31 pm

Yamori wrote:
Ganzo wrote:I disagree, with 1

With the fact that the person known under the screen name of Yamori exists, or whether you, Ganzo exist?

With knowing for sure that you or i exist "Philosophically speaking..."

Diabolik · Post by **Diabolik** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 7:53 pm

Cogito cogito, ergo cogito sum.

Yamori · Post by **Yamori** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 7:54 pm

labbats wrote:Why don't you read some philosophy and follow the ideas of someone who already started that line of thinking? You'll start into the existence of God proven/disproven. It's pretty fascinating stuff actually. Are you in college Yamori? I suggest Philosophy 101. I couldn't get enough of it.

I'm fairly well versed in philosophy. I just like to start discussions that make people think. And I'm interested in what the general population thinks about things as well.

No philosophy classes for me... I've taken 3 and didn't find them to be all that helpful. If I want to learn more I can just read or think by myself.

Yamori · Post by **Yamori** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 7:58 pm

With knowing for sure that you or i exist "Philosophically speaking..."

Really. Elaborate prz.

Parv · Post by **Parv** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 11:22 pm

Duh. Death and taxes. Next question.

mappatazee · Post by **mappatazee** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 4:09 am

I hold that you can make no such assertions as there is no intrinsic value to truth; no reason to value truth over fallacy (other than purely biological purposes which is not reason in itself). There are no valid value judgements.

Post by **Ganzo** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 5:42 am

I'm not going to prove negative, i'm arguing with your ability to prove positive in this case Yamori

Thon · Post by **Thon** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 9:36 am

i was under the impression that being a jew, you accept that existence exists, and that god made it

?

dammuzis · Post by **dammuzis** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 10:49 am

two facts of exsistance
death and taxes

i pay taxes and some day will die... so therefore i must exist

Post by **Ganzo** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 11:17 am

Thon wrote:i was under the impression that being a jew, you accept that existence exists, and that god made it

?

we talking about philosophy, not religion here no?

brinstar · Post by **brinstar** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 11:36 am

brinstar wrote:"this too shall pass"

One day Solomon decided to humble Benaiah ben Yehoyada, his most trusted minister. He said to him, "Benaiah, there is a certain ring that I want you to bring to me. I wish to wear it for Sukkot which gives you six months to find it."

"If it exists anywhere on earth, your majesty," replied Benaiah, "I will find it and bring it to you, but what makes the ring so special?"

"It has magic powers," answered the king. "If a happy man looks at it, he becomes sad, and if a sad man looks at it, he becomes happy." Solomon knew that no such ring existed in the world, but he wished to give his minister a little taste of humility.

Spring passed and then summer, and still Benaiah had no idea where he could find the ring. On the night before Sukkot, he decided to take a walk in one of he poorest quarters of Jerusalem. He passed by a merchant who had begun to set out the day's wares on a shabby carpet. "Have you by any chance heard of a magic ring that makes the happy wearer forget his joy and the broken-hearted wearer forget his sorrows?" asked Benaiah.

He watched the grandfather take a plain gold ring from his carpet and engrave something on it. When Benaiah read the words on the ring, his face broke out in a wide smile.

That night the entire city welcomed in the holiday of Sukkot with great festivity. "Well, my friend," said Solomon, "have you found what I sent you after?" All the ministers laughed and Solomon himself smiled.

To everyone's surprise, Benaiah held up a small gold ring and declared, "Here it is, your majesty!" As soon as Solomon read the inscription, the smile vanished from his face. The jeweler had written three Hebrew letters on the gold band: gimel, zayin, yud, which began the words "Gam zeh ya'avor" -- "This too shall pass."

At that moment Solomon realized that all his wisdom and fabulous wealth and tremendous power were but fleeting things, for one day he would be nothing but dust.

Post by **Ganzo** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 12:43 pm

bonus points for quoting Talmud

Thon · Post by **Thon** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 1:16 pm

i don't see any conflict. if you can believe in god, then it shouldn't be any great leap to believe we exist

Post by **Ganzo** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 1:30 pm

Thon wrote:i don't see any conflict. if you can believe in god, then it shouldn't be any great leap to believe we exist

my personal believe system has no conection to philosophical question weather i can proove for SURE that i exist.

Narrock · Post by **Narrock** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 3:10 pm

What I know for sure is that I just got home from church, and it was an awesome Sabbath worship today!

Thon · Post by **Thon** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 9:08 pm

but if the old testament is truly the divine word of god, it should be proof enough that you exist?

Rust · Post by **Rust** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 9:31 pm

'Cogito ergo sum' was Descartes.

The problem is that he assumed there was an 'I' doing the 'thinking'. All you can really say is 'cogito ergo cogito' -- that thinking is going on.

At least that's undergraduate epistemology for you, which is as far as I took it.

--R.

Tikker · Post by **Tikker** » Sun Jun 12, 2005 1:02 am

I can state with 100% surety that if I make the statement:

"There is no god, and if there is a god, he's a gimp"

that ganzo, mindia, and lyion will begin to froth at the mouth

Tikker · Post by **Tikker** » Sun Jun 12, 2005 1:03 am

I can also state that they'll pretend that they're not frothing at the mouth, and post some weaksauce insult at some point