More evolutionary lies.

[Lyion]

It's a simple matter of mutual respect. You never see Ganzo or I insult anyone if they are Atheist or Agnostic and promoting why they believe what they believe. Sure, we give our opinions, but we do not 'attack' and certainly not in a way of generalization.

I can give example after example of a complete lack of tolerance and respect towards people of Faith from many of the 'liberals' on this board, which is what Ganzo was pointing out. Then, interestingly enough, a select few say we are 'blind' and not open because we don't subscribe to the majority view here.

[Rust]

Since this thread was about evolution (which is science after all), let me restate: if you want to say 'goddidit', I'm fine with that. I certainly have no evidence to argue otherwise - maybe God set off the Big Bang, maybe He created the world in seven days some 10000 years ago, maybe it was Last Thursday. It's a question of faith, and you can't rationally argue that anyone is wrong, since it's not a question of evidence. I know quite a few people who have no problem reconciling their understanding of evolution and their religion. (Personally I have to wonder how you know *which* God 'didit', but let's drop that.)

But if you want to make serious scientific claims about geology, cosmology, evolution and the like, and claim things like 'there was a Global Flood', you're a barking nutcase. Geologists have known there was no evidence for a Noachic Deluge since at least the late 1700s. Likewise, if you make false statements about evolutionary theory, or geology, or misquote people, I have no problem pointing out you're either ignorant or lying. Having 'faith' doesn't get you a free pass from being called out for lying or misquoting people, any more than having no faith does. Likewise, I know you think your 'faith' demands you claim 'there are no transitional fossils', but once you say things like that, you're just being a babbling idiot. Walk into any decent science museum and you can see any number of transitionals, or you can read about them in books or online.

So don't claim when someone points out you completely misunderstood something you posted, to the point it actually contradicts your position, that you're somehow ennobled because your faith drove you to do it, or that when someone calls you an idiot for doing it, that somehow that counts as an attack on faith. It's an attack on stupidity, lies and ignorance, which certainly isn't a monopoly held by people of faith - I've met equally annoying, bigoted and intolerant atheists who just have to chase anyone down who admits there might be a G-d and make fun of them.

Go ahead, enjoy your faith, just don't try to use that faith to make up stuff about science that isn't true, ok?

--R.

[Tikker]

It's a simple matter of mutual respect. You never see Ganzo or I insult anyone if they are Atheist or Agnostic and promoting why they believe what they believe. Sure, we give our opinions, but we do not 'attack' and certainly not in a way of generalization.

I can give example after example of a complete lack of tolerance and respect towards people of Faith from many of the 'liberals' on this board, which is what Ganzo was pointing out. Then, interestingly enough, a select few say we are 'blind' and not open because we don't subscribe to the majority view here.

You're so full of shit lyion

you're the first person to start slinging back handed insults when anyone disagrees with you




And Ganzo, let's go at this from a different angle

You don't want people questioning your faith, but how would you convince someone that is a non believer?

You can't just say you believe it, and expect them to believe it
You have to show them why you believe (ie offer up some sort of proof )

[Ganzo]

And Ganzo, let's go at this from a different angle

You don't want people questioning your faith, but how would you convince someone that is a non believer?

You can't just say you believe it, and expect them to believe it
You have to show them why you believe (ie offer up some sort of proof )

Why? I'm not recruiting people into my club here

[Lyion]

Funny that only you seem to think so, Tikker. I'm not trying to recruit anyone either, nor have I told anyone they are wrong, or made mass generalizations.

[Lyion]

But if you want to make serious scientific claims about geology, cosmology, evolution and the like, and claim things like 'there was a Global Flood', you're a barking nutcase.

Speaking of barking nutcases, I find this ironic since serious science boggles at macroevolution. Dozens of posts from Ganzo, Ugz and others have revealed it as such, and even your vast knowledge of talk.origins and many naturalists in depth guesswork writings have not a thing to do with real science.

The simple truth is science at times takes the side of the absurd in its findings. Even if you don't like the 'quotes' from supposed experts that are 'misquoted', even if its verbatim what they are saying.

None of us has brought faith into this equation but you. It's interesting since you are the agnostic questioning one supposedly, and yet every time we bring up large issues you resort to simple ad hominem attacks versus actual discussions, and bring up matters of 'purer' faith than anyone else here.

What's interesting to me is making a post like this above will cause Tikker to call me 'ignorant' 'unable to see their side', and making it personal and other expletives, and yet he won't take the 30 seconds to understand what I'm trying to say.

On the flip side, Gidan as well as others who subscribe to these scientific beliefs will rationally discuss it and say their points of view. They won't contradict Rust or Tikker, because like the DNC in dealing with Howard Dean, exacerbating the overtly antagonisticly confrontational does nothing but hurt one's side.

I could add exact quotes and Rust would follow up with underhanded insults about how the person 'said it' but its out of context, I'm lying, I'm using biased websites (which of course, he is not, but anyone who spends 20 seconds on his sites realizes they are equally biased as the ones I've hit), even if common sense would indicate I'm posting a quote because I find it interesting, and it'd be good for discourse. What a shame that he doesn't like civil discourse, but then after hundreds of pages with Ugz, Ganz and others we know when someone has a valid point Rust simply goes off on a tangent, which is acceptable. Moreso than personal confrontation on issues he cannot engage in rationale dialog.

So, some of us like actual debate, some like to resort to Machiavellan Principles in their desire to push their personal agenda. I think if one reads the various threads without overt bias it's pretty easy to see which party is which.

[Tikker]

And Ganzo, let's go at this from a different angle

You don't want people questioning your faith, but how would you convince someone that is a non believer?

You can't just say you believe it, and expect them to believe it
You have to show them why you believe (ie offer up some sort of proof )

Why? I'm not recruiting people into my club here

Take a step back, and let's try this again ganzo



Person_A walks up and says, " TIkker and Ganzo, how did man get here?"


TIkker answers, "Evolution, here's the theory of how evolution works, there's some holes,blah blah blah, etc etc, but the theory fits the evidence the best, etc etc"

Ganzo answers, "god did it"


Person_A asks, "How do you know that?

Ganzo answers, "because I have faith"

Person_A says, "but why?"

Ganzo answers, "because I have faith"

Person_A says, "but why do you have faith"

Ganzo answers, "because I do, and I don't have to explain to you why, it's not my job to prove the existence to god to you. you either have faith, or you don't"



and that's how every "debate" goes


replace ganzo with lyion and it's the same thing, except lyion would respond "I believe in god.....as does anyone with half a brain. not that I'm trying to be insulting, as I'm a fair minded christian..... you unbelieving moron"

[Gidan]

Come on Tikker, Religion is based upon faith. If you dont have faith you have nothing. The existance of God can not be scientificly proven or disproven, so asking somone to prove creationion is not posible. They can quote the bible or whatever book or beliefs they adhear to but its always going to be based on faith. Thats the difference between Science and Religion. Religious people look at something like creation and just have the faith that it happened as it is told to them. Scientists look at what they can prove and try to make sence of things using that information. Its to comletely different ways of looking at the world.

Asking somone of religion to prove their creation is like asking a scientist to disprove the existinance of God. Neither will ever happen because they cant be done.

[Arlos]

Speaking of barking nutcases, I find this ironic since serious science boggles at macroevolution.

Actually, that's not true. You only say that because the "scientists" YOU choose to believe say that. The vast majority of scientists do *NOT* boggle at macroevolution, and they are thoroughly serious scientists. Once again you are twisting terms to attempt to quantify the debate in your favor. To you, anyone who supports your position is a "serious scientist", anyone who disagrees is not, therefore "Serious Science" is on your side, so you must be right.

Sorry, but that's a crock of shit.

-Arlos

[Ganzo]

And Ganzo, let's go at this from a different angle

You don't want people questioning your faith, but how would you convince someone that is a non believer?

You can't just say you believe it, and expect them to believe it
You have to show them why you believe (ie offer up some sort of proof )

Why? I'm not recruiting people into my club here

Take a step back, and let's try this again ganzo



Person_A walks up and says, " TIkker and Ganzo, how did man get here?"


TIkker answers, "Evolution, here's the theory of how evolution works, there's some holes,blah blah blah, etc etc, but the theory fits the evidence the best, etc etc"

Ganzo answers, "god did it"


Person_A asks, "How do you know that?

Ganzo answers, "because I have faith"

Person_A says, "but why?"

Ganzo answers, "because I have faith"

Person_A says, "but why do you have faith"

Ganzo answers, "because I do, and I don't have to explain to you why, it's not my job to prove the existence to god to you. you either have faith, or you don't"



and that's how every "debate" goes


replace ganzo with lyion and it's the same thing, except lyion would respond "I believe in god.....as does anyone with half a brain. not that I'm trying to be insulting, as I'm a fair minded christian..... you unbelieving moron"

you forgot to mention 10 other people(rust, zanchief, mofish, mappatize, etc) adding "Anyone who does not think like us is idiot who worships boogyman in the sky" "I will not hear what you just said but instead will tell you how right i am and call you moron again"

One last time Tikker: I do not argue or question theory of evolution as an alternative to creation by God. I say that God created universe, and modern science tells us how he did it, including theory of Evolution.

[Lyion]

Har, Tikker and Arlos both completely missed the point of what I posted, and did exactly what they always do.

Read the whole post next time, Arlos.

[Markarado]

Wow~ Been a well over a year since I posted. Thanks Lyion for reactivating my account. Been trying to get that done for a good year now lol.

First of all I would like to give a shout out to Mindia~ I've been reading these boards daily even though I haven't been posting. Awesome job Mindia. You can't change a liberal but u can definately make them look stupid.

Most scientists are incredibly biased in their views. They love to hide evidence against creation and twist evidence towards evolution. There is much more evidence towards creation scientifically than there is towards evolution. Both take faith. Faith isn't only for creationism. I'd say it takes more faith to believe in evolution as it's a crock of shit~ thx

[KILL]

Great, another fucking fruit cake.

[Narrock]

Speaking of barking nutcases, I find this ironic since serious science boggles at macroevolution.

Actually, that's not true. You only say that because the "scientists" YOU choose to believe say that. The vast majority of scientists do *NOT* boggle at macroevolution, and they are thoroughly serious scientists. Once again you are twisting terms to attempt to quantify the debate in your favor. To you, anyone who supports your position is a "serious scientist", anyone who disagrees is not, therefore "Serious Science" is on your side, so you must be right.

Sorry, but that's a crock of shit.

-Arlos

You, Rust, Tikker, and the rest of your clan pick and choose your scientists, so look in the mirror when you make this accusation.

[Narrock]

Wow~ Been a well over a year since I posted. Thanks Lyion for reactivating my account. Been trying to get that done for a good year now lol.

First of all I would like to give a shout out to Mindia~ I've been reading these boards daily even though I haven't been posting. Awesome job Mindia. You can't change a liberal but u can definately make them look stupid.

Most scientists are incredibly biased in their views. They love to hide evidence against creation and twist evidence towards evolution. There is much more evidence towards creation scientifically than there is towards evolution. Both take faith. Faith isn't only for creationism. I'd say it takes more faith to believe in evolution as it's a crock of shit~ thx

Hi Markarado, I don't know you too well but I recognize your name from a few years ago. Welcome back! Your presence is most welcome here and helps bring balance to the NT, which you know is something like 80+% atheist/liberal/socialist.

[Narrock]

Great, another fucking person who actually uses his head, and now we can't pull the wool over his eyes either...

Fixt.

[KILL]

hey man, post a new pic.

i wanna make a new .gif

[Zanchief]

Wow~ Been a well over a year since I posted. Thanks Lyion for reactivating my account. Been trying to get that done for a good year now lol.

First of all I would like to give a shout out to Mindia~ I've been reading these boards daily even though I haven't been posting. Awesome job Mindia. You can't change a liberal but u can definately make them look stupid.

Most scientists are incredibly biased in their views. They love to hide evidence against creation and twist evidence towards evolution. There is much more evidence towards creation scientifically than there is towards evolution. Both take faith. Faith isn't only for creationism. I'd say it takes more faith to believe in evolution as it's a crock of shit~ thx

Another rational consrvative that never makes things personal.

No wonder he's one of your friends, Lyion. Is he gonna play innocent too after a few pages of this?

[Yamori]

First of all I would like to give a shout out to Mindia~ I've been reading these boards daily even though I haven't been posting. Awesome job Mindia.

We just saw NT history being made folks... something like this has never been said before.

[Narrock]

First of all I would like to give a shout out to Mindia~ I've been reading these boards daily even though I haven't been posting. Awesome job Mindia.

We just saw NT history being made folks... something like this has never been said before.

Don't be so sure... Markarado just had the balls to be vocal about it.

[Zanchief]

I wouldn't be talking about another mans balls, it might cast you that everlasting life you prize so much.

[Rust]

Speaking of barking nutcases, I find this ironic since serious science boggles at macroevolution.

Actually, that's not true. You only say that because the "scientists" YOU choose to believe say that. The vast majority of scientists do *NOT* boggle at macroevolution, and they are thoroughly serious scientists. Once again you are twisting terms to attempt to quantify the debate in your favor. To you, anyone who supports your position is a "serious scientist", anyone who disagrees is not, therefore "Serious Science" is on your side, so you must be right.

Sorry, but that's a crock of shit.

-Arlos

Wait for it, he'll be trotting out more misquotes to support his side in a second.

I mean, if you think Ken Ham or Duane Gish or Henry Morris is 'serious science' then you just need to be laughed at in public until you apologize and go away.

In the mean time, theres always going to be debate about tempo and mode in evolution, but only cranks and fanatics keep claiming that 'evolution is not science' or how it's all going to come crashing down 'Real Soon Now'.

Lyion doesn't understand macroevolution - he proved that when he posted Richard Harter's mock criticisms of macroevolution and claimed they were fatal flaws in the theory, when Harter intended his article to point out how Creationists make bogus arguments against macroevolution, and to warn people about how to find the flaws in their bogus arguments. Hell, I've cautioned him to check out his faked quotes time and again before posting them, and he keeps using the same old Creationist cut-and-paste lies over and over again. It's not the sign of someone who really cares about the truth, it's the sign of someone who will accept any sort of lie or distortion and use it if it's in support of his Holy Cause. And should you point out that Lyion is an habitual liar and misquoter, he claims you're attacking his religion. I wasn't aware that Catholicism included 'misquoting' as part of doctrine, maybe it's a Jesuit thing?

Lyion doesn't understand macroevolution. But even when this fact is demonstrated by his own actions, he keeps claiming it's all faked, lies, bogus, etc. even when he can't actually come up with a valid argument against it. So arguing with him is lunacy - Lyion has Faith, and no evidence can possibly sway him.

So I just settle for pointing out his continual use of lies and misquotes. He'll do it again soon enough, it's like a dog returning to his vomit. I've seen Liars for Jesus time and again on the Internet. Lyion's not a even particularly interesting example.

/shrug

--R.

[Rust]

You, Rust, Tikker, and the rest of your clan pick and choose your scientists, so look in the mirror when you make this accusation.

Yeah, I pick the ones publishing in those lousy peer reviewed journals like Science and Nature. I'm horribly biased that way.

--R.

[Arlos]

I wasn't aware that Catholicism included 'misquoting' as part of doctrine, maybe it's a Jesuit thing?

Actually, I think a real Jesuit would be more than capable of using actual arguments and data to back up their position, regardless of what the position was, or if they believed in it themselves. Jesuits are pretty highly trained when it comes to debate and logic, it's one of the main tenets of the order, actually.

And Lyion, I did read your entire post. Doesn't change one iota what I said. This is by FAR from the first time that you have used a similar tactic to try and frame the conditions of the argument in your favor. It's not exactly an uncommon tactic, either. You can see it all the time by Fox News, for example. "We're patriotic, anyone who agrees with us is thus also patriotic, so anyone who disagrees must be ANTI-AMERICAN!" Sorry, but that's just as big a crock of shit. Oh, and funny, BTW, since in this very thread Ganzo said he believes in evolution, yet you mark him as being in the anti-evolutionary camp.

Also, show me where I have engaged in any ad hominem attacks against you, or attacked religious faith in any way in this discussion. I said your rhetorical device that you were using in your argument was a crock of shit, not that you were. I also have stated, repeatedly, that faith is not science, nor is it a substitute for science. Faith is by definition unprovable, and you have an inalienable right to believe what you wish, but you can't claim your belief as science just because you believe it. Also, I am in complete agreement with Ganzo: Nothing in christianity, or judaism for that matter, is in any way contradictory to evolution.

BTW, I am sure your scientists are just as serious as evolutionary supporters. Yours are just far far more in the minority. Notice I'm not trying to classify them as "whackos" for disagreeing with evolution. I don't agree with them, and feel there is plenty of evidence to counter their position, however. Fortunately, so does most of the rest of the scientific community, and disagreeing with your position, does not make them "non-serious scientists".

-Arlos

[Ganzo]

Oh, and funny, BTW, since in this very thread Ganzo said he believes in evolution, yet you mark him as being in the anti-evolutionary camp.

-Arlos

I didn't say i belive in evolution, i said i belive in science. If science now sais evolution was method of creation, i'm not going to waste my time proving it right or wrong, because if it is right - it dosn't have argument with my faith, and if it's wrong - well science been wrong many times before, earth is flat was dogma and scientific fact before.