Rogues, Sinister Strike (swords) build or Backstab (dagger)?

Tadpole · Post by **Tadpole** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:58 am

What do you guys use?

I am curious because I have a 32 night elf rogue on lightning's blade, which is pvp, and all my friends are telling me to use sinister strike and swords. I've been using daggers and backstab and thought that they might outdamage the other build.

What ya guys use?

Agrajag · Post by **Agrajag** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 12:04 pm

I use the dagger (main hand) and sword. Open with Ambush, GS, SS, SS, Gouge, BS, SS and Eviscerate.

Tacks · Post by **Tacks** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 12:15 pm

All depends on your build. As far as pvping goes sinister strike spammers are easier to play and the builds are better suited for stuns. As far as raiding goes a SS spammer will never touch the dps of a dagger rogue. I use daggers and the mace/sword rogues are left in the dust on raids. You can still stunlock to a degree with dagger builds it's just not as easy. I'd say SS builds are better to level up and easier to play until you're more comfortable with the class.

Tacks · Post by **Tacks** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 12:20 pm

If you're doing daggers get the hardest hitting slowest dagger possible in main hand and the fastest possible dagger in offhand. For swords it's the same, get a slow maximum damage sword and a fast offhander. Unless you specifically get the talent points that are for swords only then I'd never use a sword in off hand...they're too slow. You want 1.6 and less delay in offhand if possible.

xaoshaen · Post by **xaoshaen** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 12:50 pm

Taxx wrote:If you're doing daggers get the hardest hitting slowest dagger possible in main hand and the fastest possible dagger in offhand. For swords it's the same, get a slow maximum damage sword and a fast offhander. Unless you specifically get the talent points that are for swords only then I'd never use a sword in off hand...they're too slow. You want 1.6 and less delay in offhand if possible.

Why the emphasis on speed over DPS in the offhand?

Tacks · Post by **Tacks** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 12:57 pm

Offhand damage is minimal to begin with. Your offhand weapon will only do 1/2 damage without talents combine with 25% base missrate from duel wielding and you won't get many swings off. If you have a big ole slow offhand and it only lands twice a fight that going to end up being a lot less than hitter more often with a less dps fast dagger. Now I wouldn't go overboard by any means. Remember poisons can only proc when you actually hit someone so if you got that slow offhander poison damage will be minimal as well. If you're dropping 10 DPS offhand just to gain like .3 speed then no I wouldnt' do it.

Agrajag · Post by **Agrajag** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 1:16 pm

Thanks for the info, Taxx. I understood it as opposite from what you said when I was reading the rogue message boards. I'll have to swap some weapons around now. :bowdown:

xaoshaen · Post by **xaoshaen** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 1:17 pm

Taxx wrote:Offhand damage is minimal to begin with. Your offhand weapon will only do 1/2 damage without talents combine with 25% base missrate from duel wielding and you won't get many swings off. If you have a big ole slow offhand and it only lands twice a fight that going to end up being a lot less than hitter more often with a less dps fast dagger. Now I wouldn't go overboard by any means. Remember poisons can only proc when you actually hit someone so if you got that slow offhander poison damage will be minimal as well. If you're dropping 10 DPS offhand just to gain like .3 speed then no I wouldnt' do it.

Ok, that's more in line with the way I've always run a rogue, but it argues for going with optimal DPS in your offhand (factoring in poison), rather than going for pure speed.

Mudcrush Durtfeet · Post by **Mudcrush Durtfeet** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:23 pm

I use an SS build and am top raid damage of my guild (yes, we've beaten the new Ragnaros, I've got serious competition damage wise). I use an Empyrean Demolisher and Perdition in the offhand. I've got 31 in combat and 20 points in assassination.

However, I do feel that a dagger build CAN do more damage than I, but atm the backstab rogues in our guild don't quite have the gear to do it.

I actually do have off hand specialization maxxed, I believe it gets me about +30 dps (before you factor in armor and missing) - with me in an unbuffed (and unhasted) status. Buffed and hasted, well, it gets you more.

For pure raiding, I definitely think backstab is the way to go - but there's a lot more to WoW than that, at least for me.

I do like doing stuff 5-man (or less), and being an SS rogue makes me much more effective for such things. I've tanked BRD for instance (even duo'd general with a paladin, with me as tank). A backstab rogue cannot do these things, at least not right now.

For PvP, it's pretty much as Taxx said, stun lock works better with SS etc etc.

Jazendar · Post by **Jazendar** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 7:38 pm

Leveling up go sinister strike, you won't have the % to crit to be able to make backstab efficiently crit enough and take advantage of the build. Wait to switch to 60 when you have some shadowcraft or devilsaur and such, then switch to daggers.

nibbon · Post by **nibbon** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 9:35 am

http://thottbot.com/?i=37469 as offhand
http://thottbot.com/?i=36280 as mainhand

Tacks · Post by **Tacks** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 10:29 am

Eh? That's what I use. I thought you played priest.

nibbon · Post by **nibbon** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 3:11 pm

i do play a priest, but i know most of the classes pretty well, i was just showing what i thought best combo was.

Tacks · Post by **Tacks** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 5:51 pm

Well Gutgore isn't the best mainhand but it's the easiest to get for the "best" mainhand.

Forik · Post by **Forik** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 9:16 pm

Daggers 4tw. I am top dps in my guild every raid in MC, and on almost every boss(sans Shazz, etc.) Call me oldschool, I just find that Backstabs > SS any day.

Mudcrush Durtfeet · Post by **Mudcrush Durtfeet** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:23 am

Out of curiousity Forik, over an entire raid about what is your dps?

Tacks · Post by **Tacks** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 12:50 pm

Last MC8 we did I had about 1.4 million damage done.

Mudcrush Durtfeet · Post by **Mudcrush Durtfeet** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 10:16 am

We normally break MC into 3 days Taxx - what is your dps at more or less?

Tacks · Post by **Tacks** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 10:27 am

No clue, the only things i run is the default ui, lootlink, stunwatch, and DM.

Jazendar · Post by **Jazendar** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:29 pm

My weapons aren't that great, Heartseeker and Bonescraper. Although I am joining the top guild on Icecrown, Stratagem, and i should get better very soon, my dps ends up turning out on an ubrs raid, over the entire raid my dps is roughly 225-250. I'm a 21/8/22 build for pvp, but it works fine in raids as well.

Tikker · Post by **Tikker** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:43 pm

Mudcrush Durtfeet wrote:We normally break MC into 3 days Taxx - what is your dps at more or less?

Do you mean just on bosses? or including trash?

Over the course of the entire raid for us (we're not clearing MC tho, we finally just beat shazzrah last night), top damage dealers tend to be the top 2 rogues, the top hunter(me), then 2 more rogues, then a mix of hunters and mages

DPS wise, I range anywhere from a sustained 175ish, up to 250ish dps

the range is dependent on how good my healer is, and how often FD fails and I need to bandage

total damage wise, from start of the raid, to geddon dead, I do around 475-525k damage, and 50-60k damage with the pet

Mudcrush Durtfeet · Post by **Mudcrush Durtfeet** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 3:19 pm

I'm interested in hearing of dps over the entire raid, especially for backstab rogues, but also other rogues.

We've got one guy who uses Vis'kag and Corehound Tooth, he usually gets about 250-270dps overall during a MC raid (clearing and bosses).

Tacks · Post by **Tacks** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 9:08 pm

I'm pretty sure I'd be 275-300 then. I have 1425 AP raid buffed with crusader. Our run to Ragnaros tonight i had 47% crit average. If you can find me a standalone DPS meter i'll install it and let you know. Was MA tonight again so I tend to be on the low end of damage done but our normal MA should be back for next run.

Mudcrush Durtfeet · Post by **Mudcrush Durtfeet** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 11:14 pm

I use recap, it tracks damage and dps... don't remember where I got it though.

47% crit is really high, how'd you get it?

I normally get mine to around 34% (according to the number in the 'spellbook) for Ragnaros, but that's using crit stones and scorpok etc etc.

Jazendar · Post by **Jazendar** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 11:33 pm

I had my first MC raid tonight with Stratagem. We got to Garr, we got targets up, pulled him, shit froze, we crashed, came back in, and we were at the ent to the zone....Reset.

I was third on the raid as far as overall damage, with 740k up to garr in clearing and such. Arcanite reaper wars are own in clearing...A arc war was first, another rogue in second who uses a corehound in mainhand and fel in secondary. I took quite a bit of damage, I don't even understand it, I mean i know that mc isn't that friendly towards rogues, but holy shit. I wouldn't even attack and i'd get bitched at about watching my aggro. All of the mobs have no armor, and I backstab for 1200 and ambush for 1500. I'd spam feint as well everytime it popped up. A shitload of felheart dropped, and some cenarion. Oh well, fun night, up to getting gayed out of garr and stuff. Gonna give it another shot tomarrow. My dps parsor was messed up, its howed everything but dps. I'd select it to filter to dps, and everyone would be zero, then i hit something it said my dps was 1929, which obviously couldn't be right.

My crit rate with my ubrs gear was 34% on tonight raid. (including specs and stuff for ambush and backstab etc)