Suicide Bombers.. Not Crazy

[Phlegm]

From ABC news:

Aug. 6, 2005 — It's been said that the suicide bombers who cause the scenes of carnage and chaos relayed on American TV screens and front pages must be driven by a cocktail of religious fanaticism and outright insanity.

However, some experts — including people who are advising the U.S. government on terrorism — said not only are suicide bombers sane, but also that anyone of us, under the right circumstances, could become one.

"Absolutely, this is normal psychology, normal group dynamics," said Clark R. McCauley, a Bryn Mawr College psychology professor who is part of an outside team consulting for the Department of Homeland Security.

"Normal people, given the right circumstances or right set of friends, can become suicide bombers," said Marc Sageman, a forensic psychiatrist and former CIA officer.

"None of the suicide bombers would be put in a mental asylum on the order of the district psychiatrist," said Ariel Merari, one of the leading Israeli experts on suicide bombers, who has interviewed dozens of attackers captured before they could kill.

Lincolnesque?

McCauley even finds insight into the terrorist mind from, of all sources, Abraham Lincoln's Gettysburg Address. He points to a passage from Lincoln's speech on giving up one's life for a cause: "From these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion."

It is part of McCauley's argument that suicide bombers see themselves like the dead of Gettysburg — sacrificing their lives for a greater good to ensure, in Lincoln's words, "that we, here, resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain."

In short, the experts kept saying suicide bombers are not necessarily irrational, and noted that lots of people in lots of places have been honored by their societies for choosing to kill themselves in order to kill others. Japanese kamikaze pilots in World War II did it. So have Tamil guerrilla fighters in Sri Lanka. And closer to Western civilization, there is the Biblical account of Samson, who pulled down a temple to kill his enemies, which meant killing himself.

"Part of the power of suicide bombing is the impact of martyrdom," McCauley said. "Once it's somebody that you know and somebody that you care about that has taken his or her life in this fashion, that has made the sacrifice, then there is a kind of a guilt associated with doing less than they were willing to do."

That is McCauley's point about Lincoln. Obviously, Lincoln was not calling for suicide attacks, but he was trying to mobilize the troops to fight harder to honor those who had died already.

Like Columbine?

That dynamic, according to McCauley, is now in play in an Internet world where each new attack turns into a recruiting event for others: Bomb-making instructions are given out. Examples are set. And if you're a young man in a group of young men, you will get inspired.

"I think anybody could become a suicide bomber," said Sageman, the former CIA officer. "It's a process."

Sageman saw such a process in America in connection with the massacre at Columbine High School in Colorado. There, the two boys who killed others and themselves got their inspiration from a wider group.

"The guys in Columbine, although they were two, they were very much connected to a whole community on the Internet," he said.

End Justifies the Means?

Many would call it madness to kill innocents, including children, on a bus or train and to call it good. But in Israel, where it has been practically a weekly experience at times, Merari is convinced the attackers can tell themselves it is good and still be sane.

"What they say is, 'All Israelis are potentially soldiers. Israeli children are going to grow up and become Israeli soldiers,' " he said. "And that justifies their killing."

Outside the Middle East, how does the rational suicide bomber call it good to kill Americans in an office building or British people on a train?

"The kind of justification that is commonly employed," McCauley said, "is something about desperation: 'We're weak and they're strong. This is the only way we can hit back at them.' "

But when did the West ever deliberately hurt children? Many in the Muslim world might point to Iraq in the 1990s.

"Through much of the Muslim world, and even some of Europe," McCauley said, "it's believed that the embargo on Saddam Hussein's Iraq caused the deaths of several hundred thousand people, most of them children, from bad water, untreated sewage, lack of proper medical care."

[Harrison]

They may not be insane, but they sure as fuck aren't too high on the food chain with intelligence.

[Ganzo]

They may not be insane, but they sure as fuck aren't too high on the food chain with intelligence.

Wrong

Suicide was part of was since begining. Fighters always sacrificed themselfs for greater good. Difrence is, who this people target. But as far as geting young impressionable people to follow cause so completly where they'd chouse to sacrifice themself for it, this process is easy. I'm sure in right circumstances you could become martur also Fin

[Harrison]

Slaughtering Civilians simply because of their nationality?

Hardly

Sacrificing myself to save people I care about?

Much more likely and highly probable...

Let's not lump these fuckers in with people who give their lives in the name of protection or similar circumstances. They're fucking murderers and cowards.

Suicide bomb people who will fight back, not fucking innocents.

[Gidan]

Suside bombers are people who give their lives for a cause, you may not believe in their cause but that doesn't matter.

Your problem is you dont believe in their cause so you automatically believe you are beter then them. Well here is a little news for you, we are just as guilty as they are. We both have the same goals, we may take different paths to get their but the ultamite goal of each is the same. The ultamite goal is to push our moral beliefe on the rest of the world.

We say we are in iraq to give freedom to the people. What is freedom? Its a beliefe that people should be able to do certain things without fear of retaliation. Freedom is of course restricted by our moral view. So in a sence we want the world to free so far as they dont break our moral ideals. Well just incase you didn't know, they have different moral views, and just like us they think the rest of the world should follow their rules. We including myself see their moral views as wrong, well they see ours as wrong.

The fighters for their side are willing to give their lives for that cause, some do it in suside bombings. They feel that is the best route to winning their war. Killing innocent people certainly has a big impact on a nation. Look at the stae of fear Americans live in today. Well they are not the only people who have resorted to killing innocent people. If I recall, the US has killed its fair share of innocent people to further our cause.

[Yamori]

They aren't insane, their culture is.

[Harrison]

Suside bombers are people who give their lives for a cause, you may not believe in their cause but that doesn't matter.

Your problem is you dont believe in their cause so you automatically believe you are beter then them. Well here is a little news for you, we are just as guilty as they are. We both have the same goals, we may take different paths to get their but the ultamite goal of each is the same. The ultamite goal is to push our moral beliefe on the rest of the world.

We say we are in iraq to give freedom to the people. What is freedom? Its a beliefe that people should be able to do certain things without fear of retaliation. Freedom is of course restricted by our moral view. So in a sence we want the world to free so far as they dont break our moral ideals. Well just incase you didn't know, they have different moral views, and just like us they think the rest of the world should follow their rules. We including myself see their moral views as wrong, well they see ours as wrong.

The fighters for their side are willing to give their lives for that cause, some do it in suside bombings. They feel that is the best route to winning their war. Killing innocent people certainly has a big impact on a nation. Look at the stae of fear Americans live in today. Well they are not the only people who have resorted to killing innocent people. If I recall, the US has killed its fair share of innocent people to further our cause.

Please tell me, how does that Kool-aid taste? I am dying to know but don't think it will turn out so well if I drank it. I like my unclouded corner of the world and don't think the Kool-aid will mix well with the Truth(tm).

We're just as guilty as them?! Last I fucking checked I haven't murdered anyone. And neither have any of the victims of these terrorist attacks. (obviously there is the statistical probability SOMEONE has...but you get the point I hope. Afterall, you are sympathizing with murderous terrorists here. I had to cover my bases.)

Your problem is you dont believe in their cause so you automatically believe you are beter then them.

Yes, I do.

I am not a mass murdering fanatic. I AM better than them in every fashion of the meaning possible.

[Rust]

I AM better than them in every fashion of the meaning possible.

Except the ones who finished high school, of course.

--R.

[Gidan]

Suside bombers are people who give their lives for a cause, you may not believe in their cause but that doesn't matter.

Your problem is you dont believe in their cause so you automatically believe you are beter then them. Well here is a little news for you, we are just as guilty as they are. We both have the same goals, we may take different paths to get their but the ultamite goal of each is the same. The ultamite goal is to push our moral beliefe on the rest of the world.

We say we are in iraq to give freedom to the people. What is freedom? Its a beliefe that people should be able to do certain things without fear of retaliation. Freedom is of course restricted by our moral view. So in a sence we want the world to free so far as they dont break our moral ideals. Well just incase you didn't know, they have different moral views, and just like us they think the rest of the world should follow their rules. We including myself see their moral views as wrong, well they see ours as wrong.

The fighters for their side are willing to give their lives for that cause, some do it in suside bombings. They feel that is the best route to winning their war. Killing innocent people certainly has a big impact on a nation. Look at the stae of fear Americans live in today. Well they are not the only people who have resorted to killing innocent people. If I recall, the US has killed its fair share of innocent people to further our cause.

Please tell me, how does that Kool-aid taste? I am dying to know but don't think it will turn out so well if I drank it. I like my unclouded corner of the world and don't think the Kool-aid will mix well with the Truth(tm).

We're just as guilty as them?! Last I fucking checked I haven't murdered anyone. And neither have any of the victims of these terrorist attacks. (obviously there is the statistical probability SOMEONE has...but you get the point I hope. Afterall, you are sympathizing with murderous terrorists here. I had to cover my bases.)

Your problem is you dont believe in their cause so you automatically believe you are beter then them.

Yes, I do.

I am not a mass murdering fanatic. I AM better than them in every fashion of the meaning possible.

Most Arabs have never murdered anyone in their lives. Most of the Japanese who died at the end of WW2 never murdered anyone in their lives. How many innocent civilians did Americans kill in Japan? Are you saying your a beter person then all the members of the US gov't that had a part in bombing Japan?

[Lyion]

Most people do not know the true stories of these suicide bombers, and the level of bullshit, bribery, and blackmail usually involved.

Gidan, the Arabs are sympathetic to suicide bombers, just as the US was wrongly sympathetic to locking up Japanese Americans. It's not about actions, but social mindsets.

[Narrock]

Hmm... Gidan might be a silent cell.

[Wrath Child]

Suicide bombers are just plain old cowards. If they truly believed Allah was on their side, they would fight the US out in the open. Certainly the US military isn't more powerful than Allah, is it?

Kamikaze pilots did what they did because they firmly believed the Japanese propaganda that US soldiers were going to rape their wives and daughters, and murder the rest of their families, after they invaded Japan. They carried out these final and deadly flights to protect their families, not to appease the Emperor. It should always be noted that what they feared was the exact thing the Japanese military had been doing to the Chinese, Filipinos and all other non-Japanese asians they encountered from the beginning of the war.

You won't read about The Rape of Nanking - where girls were never too young to be raped - in Japanese school books, because even to this day, Japan refuses to own up to their behavior during WW2. Behavior that made the Russians seem downright friendly, and possibly surpassed even the Nazi's.

Another big reason these cowards intentionally blow up innocent civilians is this:

Saddam Pays 25K for Palestinian Bombers
Tuesday, March 26, 2002
By Ken Layne

Saddam Hussein is paying $25,000 to the relatives of Palestinian suicide bombers — a $15,000 raise much welcomed by the bombers' families.

In Tulkarm, one of the poorest towns on the West Bank, a member of the Palestinian Legislative Council handed out the checks from Saddam. The payments have been made for at least two years, but the amount has suddenly jumped up by $15,000 — a bonus for the families of martyrs, to reward those taking part in the escalating war against Israel.

Paul McGeough, reporting from the West Bank, was the only foreign correspondent in the hall Monday night when a Palestinian official handed out the checks. McGeough's story in today's Sydney Morning Herald describes a very hellish twist on the Academy Awards:

The men at the top table then opened Saddam's checkbook and, as the names of 47 martyrs were called, family representatives went up to sign for checks written in U.S. dollars.

Those of two suicide bombers were the first to be paid the new rate of $25,000 U.S. and those whose relatives had died in other clashes with the Israeli military were given $10,000 U.S. each.

The $500,000 U.S. doled out in this impoverished community yesterday means that the besieged Iraqi leader now has contributed more than $10 million to grieving Palestinian families since the new intifada began 18 months ago.

In another article published today in The Age, McGeough wrote, "The grieving mothers seemed comforted when the man from the Iraqi-funded Arab Liberation Front told them: 'Don't think that the martyrs are dead — they are alive and in the heavens and they are close to God.'"

I reached McGeough on his mobile phone in the West Bank this morning and asked if he snuck into this gruesome town hall meeting, held by a PLO faction aligned with Saddam Hussein's Ba'ath Party. I mean, who would let a foreign journalist see this sort of Iraqi-Palestinian blood partnership?

"I asked the Ramallah office of the Arab Liberation Front," McGeough said. "They said I could go."

He was welcomed. So the Palestinian Authority is blatantly exposing its terrorist funding from Iraq? To foreign reporters?

"You can interpret it in various ways. One way is that it is a deliberate way for Baghdad to escalate the suicide bombings."

McGeough quoted the Arab Liberation Front's Ma'amoon Tayeh as saying the extra $15,000 would encourage more suicide-bomber volunteers to "confirm the legitimacy of our national questions." Why?

"Saddam Hussein considers Palestine to be a governate of Iraq and he thinks the same of the Palestinian martyrs as he does of Iraqi martyrs — they all are martyrs for the whole Arab nation," Tayeh was quoted as saying.

This Arab realm is the same one Saddam has invaded and battled on various fronts for 30 years. Whatever — desperate and brainwashed Palestinian kids aren't known for their nuanced view of recent Middle East history.

This should be a huge story. This should be on the front page of every serious newspaper. But you have to spend some time looking for any mentions of it. On March 12, the Associated Press quoted Baghdad's Al-Iraq newspaper's quoting of deputy minister Tariq Aziz, who said the payments have been made since 2000 and recently were increased. The BBC monitored a broadcast this week about the blood money deal. Other news organizations report nut-sandwich "solutions" by the likes of Muammar Gaddafi, who at least sounds more sincere the Saudis. But McGeough is the first to bring this twisted tale to the current war coverage.

It was news even to the Palestinian officials McGeough questioned.

"I interviewed the guy from the Arab Liberation Front last Thursday, the general secretary, and he told me everyone got $10,000. He knew nothing about the extra $15,000."

Maybe he didn't know. But could the Iraq-PLO deal be missed by Arafat?

"It's a bit hard for Arafat, given his grip on things, and in particular his ownership of his security forces .... For him to have not found out that someone's arrived with a half-million dollars to hand out in one of the most impoverished communities on the West Bank ...."

What about Washington? Is it worth pursuing a peace deal when the Palestinians are being paid by Iraq to blow up their sons and daughters? When the Palestinians are applauded by the Arab nations for the bloodshed? Should we even bother with heartfelt discussions about U.N. inspectors and diplomacy when Iraq is a proud example of state-sponsored terrorism? What do we get from ignoring Mohammed Atta's meeting with Iraqi spies in Prague? Should we play nice with the psycho who parades his enemies' families on satellite teevee just to teach those exiles a lesson?

After I got off the phone with McGeough, I pulled out my old copy of "Saddam Hussein and the Crisis in the Gulf," a quickie paperback by Judith Miller and Laurie Mylroie, published in 1990. I bought it because I was supposed to go to Saudi Arabia with the Marines from Camp Pendleton — as a reporter covering the Gulf War, not as a Marine — and I didn't know too much about Saddam except that he was a psychotic opportunist nut who could shake hands with Bob Dole on one day and slaughter the Christian Assyrians the next day.

This little paperback is full of information that's very relevant right now:

Saddam's campaign to enroll the past in the service of future glory is obsessive. He has embarked on a giant project to reconstruct a version of ancient Babylon .... Saddam is widely portrayed as a latter-day Nebuchadnezzar, the 6th Century B.C. Babylonian ruler, whose memory the Old Testament has preserved as a conqueror of Jerusalem, the leader who carried the Hebrews into captivity.

Saddam even had bricks stamped with his name alongside Nebuchadnezzar's. Babylon would come back. The Israelites would again be destroyed or enslaved. Remember, this is the same historical insanity that produced Osama bin Laden's longings for a re-conquest of Spain. Logic and diplomacy don't mean a damned thing to a Nebuchadnezzar wannabe. Saddam's answer to the "peace process" is a fat check to the suicide bombers' families and the destruction of the evil Hebrews. And the Palestinian authorities don't seem to have any problem doling out that dirty money ... in U.S. dollars.

[Ganzo]

Suicide bombers are just plain old cowards. If they truly believed Allah was on their side, they would fight the US out in the open. Certainly the US military isn't more powerful than Allah, is it?

That's a retarded statment. By this defenition all the people that ever used underground armed resistance are cowards. Resistance fighters throughout europe and in Russia during WW2 should have came out in the open and fought Nazi army instead of blowing up bridges and pisoning water supplies by your defenition of war.

Beliteling your enemy is sure way to lose war. Muslim suicide bombers are not cowards or idiots, but strong, inteligent enemy, who found a tactic that works for his advantage and uses it.

[Harrison]

I understand what you're getting at entirely Ganzo. But...until they target military, they're cowards plain and simple.

If I went and killed a civilian family of Iranian women and children, I'd be a murderous coward. Not intelligent, strong, and brave...

They blow up a bus of innocent civilians with a bomb strapped to their chest and they're brave, intelligent, and strong? I'm sorry if I don't feel the same about that assertion.

[xaoshaen]

Suicide bombers are just plain old cowards. If they truly believed Allah was on their side, they would fight the US out in the open. Certainly the US military isn't more powerful than Allah, is it?

That's a retarded statment. By this defenition all the people that ever used underground armed resistance are cowards. Resistance fighters throughout europe and in Russia during WW2 should have came out in the open and fought Nazi army instead of blowing up bridges and pisoning water supplies by your defenition of war.

Beliteling your enemy is sure way to lose war. Muslim suicide bombers are not cowards or idiots, but strong, inteligent enemy, who found a tactic that works for his advantage and uses it.

Blowing up bridges is a far cry from deliberately targeting civilians. I certaintly wouldn't recommend attacking superior military forces head on, but that's not a license to murder civilians. You're still obligated to attack legitimate military targets if you want to be considered a legitimate military force instead of a band of thugs and criminals. Taking the bold steps of attacking women and children makes you a coward and an idiot.

Why an idiot? Suicide bombings and terror campaigns don't work. Israel still stands, her citizens as resolute as ever, despite decades of terrorist attacks. The Blitz only made Londoners more determined to prosecute the second world war. The IRA made no headway until they joined the political process instead of blowing up pubs.

[Spliffs]

The thing about it is.. they aren't trying to fight us. They don't think they are going to slowly eliminate the infidels with 6,000 years of suicide bombings. It is Psychological warfare. They are trying to intimidate us. It's more like a hostage situation. "We're going to shoot one hostage every 30 minutes til we get a plane and a million bucks" becomes "We're going to blow up 60 civillians every 2 months until you get the fuck out of the middle east." It's all about leverage, and being child murdering goat fuckers is the only leverage they have.

[Arlos]

America was FOUNDED by people who would likely have been considered terrorists today. Look at the continental army, at least early on. They didn't fight by the standard rules of war, they snuck around through forests and sniped the crap out of the british. We ourselves won our national independence through what started out as a guerilla war.

Also, fanaticism and willingness to die for an ideal is hardly unique to suicide bombers. Was it not Patrick Henry who said, "Give me Liberty or give me Death"? Oh yeah, he's a complete nobody, right?

I'm not in any way condoning terrorist acts going after civilians, but to label those who do it as insane or crazed is very short-sighted and completely inaccurate. Also, isn't much of the activity of the insurgents in Iraq going after military targets? Would you cease to call them cowards if they only targeted US military or Iraqi military/police/government officials?

-Arlos

[Harrison]

Would you cease to call them cowards if they only targeted US military or Iraqi military/police/government officials?

Yes.

It is not going to happen.

Don't fucking compare guerilla warfare to mass murdering and specific targeting of CIVILIANS. You're smarter than that Arlos, don't get lumped in with the retards.

[Harrison]

Guerilla warfare != Suicide bombing of civilians intentionally

[Gidan]

Suicude bombing is just another form of warfare.

Dont forget to them, our civilians are meaningless. They view killing us less of a crime then it was to kill a slave in the US. They do know however that is greatly effects us. If you think suside bombing isn't doing its job. Take a close look at this country, people are living in fear of being bombed. Is it going to win the war for them? No. Is it going to disrupt the lives of the people living in this country? Yes, very much.

[Arlos]

Oh, I agree that I see a definite distinction, Fin. The issue at hand here, however, is that they do not; or at least it seems they don't. Also, this is NOT an attitude unique to muslims, however. Just look back at some US history. Wasn't it Sheridan or one of the other US Army generals, in the fights against the Indians who was known for slaughtering women and children, and justified it with the phrase, "Nits make lice"? (ie, baby indians grow up to be adult indians, and if you kill em as children they're easier to get rid of than if you wait.)

We today find that sort of attitude barbaric, and for good reason, but as you can see, we're barely 100-150 years removed from that here, and those people considered themselves devout christians. So, my entire point is that trying to claim it's an issue strictly with Islam or those who live in the middle east is inaccurate and overly simplistic at best, completely misleading at worst.

-Arlos

[Jeddas]

sand niggers getting pushed as the pawns they are.

[xaoshaen]

America was FOUNDED by people who would likely have been considered terrorists today. Look at the continental army, at least early on. They didn't fight by the standard rules of war, they snuck around through forests and sniped the crap out of the british. We ourselves won our national independence through what started out as a guerilla war.

Nope, sorry Arlos. The Continental Army targeted legitmate military assets. They may have been considered guerillas, but not terrorists.

I'm not in any way condoning terrorist acts going after civilians, but to label those who do it as insane or crazed is very short-sighted and completely inaccurate. Also, isn't much of the activity of the insurgents in Iraq going after military targets? Would you cease to call them cowards if they only targeted US military or Iraqi military/police/government officials?

That depends, do you consider mosques, schools, and bus stations to be military targets? The terrorist forces in Iraq have done themselves a great disservice by continuing to pursue the destruction of civilian assets. Iraqi civilians have come to the point of begging for US military intervention on the scale of Fallujah, in some cases accepting far more collateral damage than US forces are willing to inflict.

Killing civilian leaders is an illegal action, even in war time. You don't get to just assassinate whomever you choose. Police and bureaucrats are not legitimate military targets.

[xaoshaen]

Suicude bombing is just another form of warfare.

Dont forget to them, our civilians are meaningless. They view killing us less of a crime then it was to kill a slave in the US. They do know however that is greatly effects us. If you think suside bombing isn't doing its job. Take a close look at this country, people are living in fear of being bombed. Is it going to win the war for them? No. Is it going to disrupt the lives of the people living in this country? Yes, very much.

It's not just, or even primarily, US civilians who are dying. Look at the casualty reports coming out of Iraq. The terrorists are taking a far greater toll on the Iraqi people than on US troops and civilians combined.

Terror attacks don't greatly affect us, at least not in the manner they are intended to do so. History has proven that attacking a nation's civilians strengthens that nations collective resolve. Anger is a powerful incentive to fight, not to capitulate. The fact of the matter is that the average American hasn't changed their daily routine because of terrorist actions. We still go to work or to school, run errands, and socialize. Terrorists just don't win, at best it's a delaying tactic once you've already lost.

[xaoshaen]

We today find that sort of attitude barbaric, and for good reason, but as you can see, we're barely 100-150 years removed from that here, and those people considered themselves devout christians. So, my entire point is that trying to claim it's an issue strictly with Islam or those who live in the middle east is inaccurate and overly simplistic at best, completely misleading at worst.

Of course it's not an Islamic issue. Witness the IRA. There exist outliers in any society that are capable of irrational actions like conducting a terrorist campaign. It's silly to claim that we're "barely 100-150 years removed" form that outlook: we're not removed from it at all, as residents of Oklahoma City will attest. On the other hand, that outlook has never been representative of our society: such incidents are abberations, not a prevailing doctrine.