Devastating War picture

[Lyion]

There won't be a draft, so it's all for naught. That'd be political suicide. The only ones promoting a draft are the Democrats, citing the thin state of our military which is a good tactic, but not realistic.

Next year we'll start withdrawing from Iraq and by 2008 I predict we'll be at less people in Iraq than we had permanently stationed in West Germany in the 80s.

[Arlos]

I was actually pursued incredibly avidly by all branches of the military out of high school. Something about scoring 99th percentile in all of the ASVAB tests (except the one that asked stuff like, "which one of these is a roofing nail", where I got 98th). I thought a lot about doing ROTC with the AF, but the college I was going to didn't have a ROTC deal, so that killed even the thinking. I would never have passed the physical though, even if I had decided to do it. I have a degenerative condition in both knees that has basically ruined the cartilage in both of them. Plus, I seriously injured my right knee playing soccer when I was younger, and at that point I hadn't had surgery yet, and that knee was still prone to completely failing at random, which would result in me collapsing to the ground as the knee gave way, unless there was something to grab onto handy. Was oh so fun when it'd happen when I was walking through a mall or something like that.

In any case, I am not presuming to speak for all veterans, just the ones I know. Those that I know in RL are against the war, universally. Yes, that includes those who are still actively serving. Just passing on THEIR opinions and statements.

-Arlos

[ClakarEQ]

I would think a draft maybe required at some future time with the war mongering conservatives at the helm.

So how many months has the armed forces missed the enrollment quota?

You see this war is more then just free Iraq (if you actually believe this, fool you are but anyway, I'll digress). It is killing the armed forces as well (not literally though true, but the military is not the "safe place" is used to be and folks are going to shy away from the armed forces for many years to come). Have you read how when you vets come back you're all mentally screwed up? They say due to the extreme violence, the burden the vets will bring upon us all will be significant (whatever that means). I feel for the troops, I support the troops, I do not support the war or this war mongering president.

Point here, a draft is very likely IF IF IF we are foolish enough to engage another nation for the same reasons we invaded Iraq. But we won't do that because we don't care about human rights, we care about oil.

This war has done nothing to terrorism. If you think it will slow, you're wrong. If you think they'll be stifled you're wrong. Violence on our soil will increase, we've been lucky as hell up until now. But now, our commander in chief has made a HUGE target on all our backs and his attitude carries this, come on I dare you to blow up another building.

Our president is a show boater, I've got something to prove, chip on my shoulder guy. Yeah, those are presidential requirements. His attitude is the fuel to the fire the terrorist live off of.

O and why not a draft, who cares if it is political suicide, he is a lame duck soon enough anyway. Why not go out with a BOOM.

Something else, the other day Mr. bush stated how he understands how the moms and dads of fallen soldiers feel. He says, I really feel for those folks lost. Does he now, who has he lost? Who in his family is in Iraq? Tell me sir, how is it you understand what's it's like to burry your son, or daughter. The fool isn't even compassionate, puts on the show, makes it look good, then laughs at you all behind your back. War is hell, screw them all, keep on the bandwagon you foolish bush lovers.

/rant off /flames on

[kaharthemad]

BTW and you are Clark? Now let me retort.

Your whole comment

"Our president is a show boater, I've got something to prove, chip on my shoulder guy.

Seem to recall a incident in Bosnia. Also recall that chicken shit pulling out after Black Hawk incident. For nothing more then a stain down the front of Monica's Dress.

Does he now, who has he lost? Who in his family is in Iraq?

Why do you need to have someone over there to understand? Do you? Did you Bury your son or Daughter?
Oh yes I forgot your a liberal that thinks it is 'ok' to kill soldiers when it is a democratic President at the helm but not ok when it is a republican.

Lets see.....Kennedy...Vietnam. Lyndon B Johnson...increase of troops in Veitnam.

Yeah theres a good piece of democratic work.

As for Drafting people. nope dont think it is a good idea. But I do think making everyone serve 2 years much like alot of other coutires should be mandatory.

As for you Clakar or whoever you are, there is a word for you. I think the word amazingly enough is TOOL. You blowing the DNC chairman or just catching for him?

feel for the troops, I support the troops,

You dont feel for the troops. I doubt you know any. You dont support the troops since you dont care and dont support what they are doing. General consensus of the military right now that are over there are that they support Bush and what he is doing. I think general poll right now as of last month was 80 percent support rate over there. If you want substaniating facts military.org and a few other USO programs did polls over there.

I do not support the war or this war mongering president

Ahh yes... let me guess you belive Kennedy and Johnson were not warmongering? How many people died in that war?

[Lyion]

First, we are getting ready to draw down in Iraq. Why would we recruit when it'd make no sense?

You are welcome to your opinion the war has done nothing to Terrorism, but I disagree and most intelligence analysts feel the same. How many attacks have we had post 9/11? How many Al Qaeda people who would be in Europe and other western nations are fighting in Iraq?

In regards to our Presidents feelings and the fact he does what no other Prez has done, I reference you to here

In regards to the Army needing a draft,I doubt it.

[ClakarEQ]

He is a show boater, chip on my shoulder guy, I wasn't making a comparision, I was makeing a statement. I don't care what you think of carter or clinton, kennedy, etc. You don't have to care what I think of bush, but what I said is true regardless. That is one of the reasons why I think he is a bad president.

Dude, you can't understand the loss if you havn't experienced it, PERIOD.

I can't understand it as I've not lost a loved one there. I can give condolances, I can feel bad, sorry, etc. But you nor anyone can UNDERSTAND HOW YOU FEEL. YOU are NOT them (unless of course you are in that you've lost a daughter or son, dad, mom etc, only they can truely understand). Your best friend could die there, but that isn't even close to the same as a direct family member (not in all cases but I'd think the majority)

I do feel for the troops. I've got one family member there (first cousin). He is screwed up big time. I could go into the details but what good would that do? He has been in since 18, he is 33 now, he has gone up and down the food chain becuase of the issues he is working through. He thinks the war is a mistake but the service is all he knows and is support for his medical, mental and financial requirements.

It isn't ok to have soldiers slain regardless of who is in office. I think harrison made a point regarding sometimes war is required, I agree with that. Sometimes it is, I just don't think it was REQUIRED this time. (e.g. Afgan yes, iraq no).

Who am I, I'm just like you, but on the other side of the spectrum apparently. I've been around NT since before you most likely ('99 - '00 era) WTF is this thread and forum about anyway. Opinions with some facts thrown in. Don't be pissed at me just because I wanted to state my opinion with a little bit of fact.

And stop showing weakness by cursing at me. I know you're smarter then that . O, and yeah, I can be a dick at times, looks like I got your feathers in a bunch /score !!

(didn't spell check, be kind)

[Langston]

Clakar - so basically what you said is that because he doesn't know anyone that was lost, he can't understand... but that you, not knowing anyone either, DO understand and think he's wrong.

Nice double standard there.

[ClakarEQ]

Lyion, you ninja posted before me.

I think the first link you posted makes him admirable in that sense.

Almost makes you think he really regrets the entire ordeal though.

Like he looked in the mirror one day and said, My god, what have I done, and for what.

Re: draft, today I fully agree, it won't happen, in fact the uproar would be so extreme IMHO it would me like a women scorned and the nation would be playing the role of the women. You know hte saying, hell has no furry like a women scorned (or something like that).

Re: terrorism, how many did we have before 9/11. How many did other nations have pre-9/11, how many do we have now? How many do other nations have now? You can't say it has actually decreased on a global scale? I would like to see some facts about that.

[Lyion]

Some of this is towards Kahar, but some is wide open, so I hope you don't mind if I respond.

He is a show boater, chip on my shoulder guy, I wasn't making a comparision, I was makeing a statement. I don't care what you think of carter or clinton, kennedy, etc. You don't have to care what I think of bush, but what I said is true regardless. That is one of the reasons why I think he is a bad president.

Yup, he is indeed. But all Presidents are showboaters. Generally, that is how one gets elected. If they were introverts, do you think they'd want to run for office?

Dude, you can't understand the loss if you havn't experienced it, PERIOD.

I'd stop assuming things about others.

I can't understand it as I've not lost a loved one there. I can give condolances, I can feel bad, sorry, etc. But you nor anyone can UNDERSTAND HOW YOU FEEL. YOU are NOT them (unless of course you are in that you've lost a daughter or son, dad, mom etc, only they can truely understand). Your best friend could die there, but that isn't even close to the same as a direct family member (not in all cases but I'd think the majority)

If one can't understand, then how do you understand? Somewhat of an illogical twist there. You are arguing for not understanding something unless you've gone through it, but you haven't.

I do feel for the troops. I've got one family member there (first cousin). He is screwed up big time. I could go into the details but what good would that do? He has been in since 18, he is 33 now, he has gone up and down the food chain becuase of the issues he is working through. He thinks the war is a mistake but the service is all he knows and is support for his medical, mental and financial requirements.

So, he wants the benefits of a voluntary military, but not the obligations.

It isn't ok to have soldiers slain regardless of who is in office. I think harrison made a point regarding sometimes war is required, I agree with that. Sometimes it is, I just don't think it was REQUIRED this time. (e.g. Afgan yes, iraq no).

And that is your opinion, but what does that have to do with the price of tea in china? We did just have an election. Congress authorized the war. If you have an issue, there are democratic means of taking it up. Or you could just do what far left whacko's are doing and start making things up and throwing random insults at the Prez. It seems you're somewhat on that track, and I hope you disembark from that train and look at things rationally.

Who am I, I'm just like you, but on the other side of the spectrum apparently. I've been around NT since before you most likely ('99 - '00 era) WTF is this thread and forum about anyway. Opinions with some facts thrown in. Don't be pissed at me just because I wanted to state my opinion with a little bit of fact.

You most assuredly have not been around NT longer than me. I respect your opinion, but again rationale debate is one thing, name calling and attacks are another.

And stop showing weakness by cursing at me. I know you're smarter then that . O, and yeah, I can be a dick at times, looks like I got your feathers in a bunch /score !!

This is directed at Kahar, and it's a weakness of his. Fear the verbal abilities of those trapped for months at a time under the deep blue seas.

[ClakarEQ]

Langston, re-read, I don't recall saying I DO understand. In fact I said specifically I do NOT understand the feelings one would have.

read my bad grammer again bro

[ClakarEQ]

Lyion, as I said, you ninja'd in front of me, that post you're quoting was for Kha

[Lyion]

Some of this is towards Kahar, but some is wide open, so I hope you don't mind if I respond.

As in Starship Troopers, just doing my part.

I really liked the Time article, and it did show he does care and take the losses personally, even if you dislike the man.

Just trying to retangent this back on to good discussions before it ends up in EE with me lobbing flames at various Canadians!

[Langston]

Clakar - you claim to not understand, but you obviously feel like you understand better than him so as to put you in a position of criticizing him like you are.

It's hypocrisy, plain and simple.

[ClakarEQ]

All in all I love the debate and truely enjoy many of the posts and threads here. Others opinions can be eye openers and can make you re-think what you believe was hard truth the minute before.

re: showboating, would you not say Pres Bush is nearly on the extreme edge of it though? He reminds me of the comercial years back for duracell batteries. You know the one with that wild wild west actor, and the battery on his shoulder, "I dare you to knock it off".

re: death of loved one. I do not understand the feelings one would have. DO NOT understand. He can NOT understand. The only folks that can UNDERSTAND are those that have lived it. You can't understand unless you lived it, that was my point. Yeah it is a chicken and the egg issue but that is just the way it is. I can understand someones feelings if their house was vandalized. In my first home I had it happen to me. I understand. I hope you're seeing what I mean, perhaps I'm not conveying the message effectively, not sure how I can I guess. If any of us had a loved one killed in Iraq, they understand, you think Bush has those EXACT feelings when john doe gets killed in Iraq?

Re: when to war. That was in response to Kha's statement of it is ok for a dem to kill soldiers but not a rep.

Re: length of tenor at NT. While Lyion a few others have most certainly been here longer, I was just expressing that my introduction isn't required as it would be 5 years too late.

Re: slandering the pres. Yeah I know we have demicratic means to "fix it". But to truely deploy the means one must have countless unused hours in the day and a huge bank account. Sure it is easy for me to sit on my "throne" and slander the man. Just like it was easy, will be easy for the conservatives to slander Dem's. It goes both ways i guess. I'll step off that train though, as I agree it doesn't really do much but fuel a fire.

Look at the 1st post of this thread. It is heartwrenching(sp). The boy will be fine as he is young, but the wife, the mom or dad of that soldier, they won't be "fine". Bush doesn't UNDERSTAND the feelings of the family. He can sympathize but he hasn't experienced that heartwrenching first hand, hence he can't understand. This got blown out more then I thought. It really comes down to this, when you're talking to someone who has lost a loved one in Iraq, don't say "I understand how you feel", you don't.

[ClakarEQ]

Lang, it isn't hypocrisy. I'm sure he regrets makeing the statement.

If his daughter was killed in Iraq, he would understand.

If you just lost your mom or dad (for whatever the reason), and I've not lost mine, and I say to you, "I understand how you feel". Explain to me how that could be? How would that make you feel?

I can promise you that if it had been a staged thing, where the press writers would have seen what he said before hand, there is no way they would let "understand" into that comment.

In fact there are specific courses one can take on how to convey things like this, and one of the danger word combinations is "understand feelings"

[Langston]

I'm not calling HIM the hypocrit - I'm calling YOU the hypocrit.

[ClakarEQ]

how am I a hypocrit?

Where did I say one thing and then back pedal on it?

Quote me please (I hope I've not made a typo up there someplace :p )

I said I don't understand.
I said he can't understand.
I said to understand you have to live it, like, been there done that.
He hasn't been there done that.
I haven't been there done that.

Hypocrite = a person who professes beliefs and opinions that he does not hold.

I'm not seeing it still, help me out lang.

[Lyion]

I'm not calling HIM the hypocrit - I'm calling YOU the hypocrit.

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

[Narrock]

I'm not calling HIM the hypocrit - I'm calling YOU the hypocrit.

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

Langston has already demonstrated his lack of comprehension of basic English skills, so why is this so surprising?

[Lyion]

Langston has already demonstrated his lack of comprehension of basic English skills, so why is this so surprising?

If you hijack this thread, I shall out you, Vonkaar, er Mindia!

[Narrock]

Langston has already demonstrated his lack of comprehension of basic English skills, so why is this so surprising?

If you hijack this thread, I shall out you, Vonkaar, er Mindia!

[Narrock]

[Donnel]

Before Bush left the meeting, he paused in the middle of the room and said to the families, "I will never feel the same level of pain and loss you do. I didn't lose anyone close to me, a member of my family or someone that I love. But I want you to know that I didn't go into this lightly. This was a decision that I struggle with every day."

Fromt he end of the newsweek article.

He agrees with you Clakar.

[Langston]

Clakar - I'm calling you a hypocrit because you seem to think that Bush is wrong, but you're basing YOUR opinion on the same thing he's basing his own: your personal, yet unexperienced feelings. You call Bush out for it, but you seem comfortable doing the same thing (with a different resulting point of view) yourself.

I know full well what hypocrit means, Lyion. Don't presume to be condescending to me again.

[Tossica]

I know full well what hypocrit means, Lyion. Don't presume to be condescending to me again.

Or else...?