The Passion

Drunnken · Post by **Drunnken** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 7:57 pm

since the dead sea scrolls predate the time of jesus, i don't think you can call them an early bible

also, a lot of the stories in the dead sea scrolls are in the new testament, but some of them are very different from their modern versions

also, the catholic church, despite how much you all think they suck because their grunts molest boys, is the leader among christian research, and they still haven't accepted the scrolls

Kaeerwen · Post by **Kaeerwen** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 8:02 pm

I'll probably be crucified (no pun intended) by Mindia or the like for saying this, but with a little luck, christians MAY eventually discover that it's the belief in the christian god and the acceptance of Jesus as your saviour that makes you a christian, regardless of views on the trinity, or any other controvercial point for that matter. All that's required to be a good person, christian or no, is to essentially follow the ten commandments, or any other variation of the ideas. Love your neighbor, don't kill people, etc. etc. We'll just have to see what happens though, but I won't be holding my breath.

Thon · Post by **Thon** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 8:21 pm

i know i said arguing with thick headed zealots is futile, but it is just too fun to miss

Organized religion is a sham and a crutch for weak-minded people who need strength in numbers

you can't say it any better than 'The Body'.

religion has always been used to control people, to explain to them why they're out breaking their back to survive while the top few % of society(including the church leaders) are living it up.

Muglack i'm sad to say has it right. if there is a god he is neither benevolent nor forgiving. or if he is, he can't be all knowing/all powerful

if he's omniscient and what not then he isn't fit to be worshipped cause he's a sadist. just look at human history, we arn't exactly a divine creation

if he is infinitely loving and forgiving then he can't be all powerful, otherwise life would be an Eden. and how forgiving/loving can the fella be if he kicked adam and eve's asses out of paradise for eating some fruit? i mean really, that's in your own bible(well, it's the jewish torah i believe, but christians just stole it, called it the old testament, and used it to legitimize their faith as having a long tradition)

the message in adam and eve? don't think for yourself, you're supposed to listen to what God(the church) says, no matter how silly/stupid, otherwise you'll be eternally damned by the God who eternally loves you

edit - mis-applied italics~

Kaeerwen · Post by **Kaeerwen** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 8:26 pm

Oh, I completely agree that religion in general has been manipulated for years and years now, basically ever since someone stood up and said "I'm holier than thou." I'm not a religious person myself, but I am interested in religion, as a subject. The truest form of religion was back when people would look up at the sky and wonder to themselves, "What the hell is goin on?"

Narrock · Post by **Narrock** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 8:33 pm

Kaeerwen wrote:I'll probably be crucified (no pun intended) by Mindia or the like for saying this, but with a little luck, christians MAY eventually discover that it's the belief in the christian god and the acceptance of Jesus as your saviour that makes you a christian, regardless of views on the trinity, or any other controvercial point for that matter. All that's required to be a good person, christian or no, is to essentially follow the ten commandments, or any other variation of the ideas. Love your neighbor, don't kill people, etc. etc. We'll just have to see what happens though, but I won't be holding my breath.

I will give you this: I agree with you that your acceptance of Jesus as your personal savior is the most important facet to becoming a Christian. Believing in the Trinity didn't come right away for me. It took a while for it to make sense. Some Christians just aren't at that step yet. And that's ok, because it will come to them eventually.

brinstar · Post by **brinstar** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 8:52 pm

they're just not underground enough yet

Kaeerwen · Post by **Kaeerwen** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 9:01 pm

Different levels of christianity? Please elaborate... I was under the obviously stupid assumption that a christian is a christian.

Metranon · Post by **Metranon** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 9:12 pm

Im a tenth level christian, i pee holy water

Narrock · Post by **Narrock** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 9:15 pm

How can you be a self-proclaimed Christian and not believe in the Holy Trinity when Jesus Himself has declared that The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one? Didn't we go over this already? I know it's a hard concept to grasp at first. Give it some time. It will come.

Kaeerwen · Post by **Kaeerwen** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 9:31 pm

If you derived that I'm a self-proclaimed christian, then I must've explained something wrong. I in no way believe that I'm a christian. Of course, saying that will probably only lead to me being attacked, but... what the hell, right?

Kaeerwen · Post by **Kaeerwen** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 9:32 pm

By the way Met, how much exp did you have to gain to ding 10?

Narrock · Post by **Narrock** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 9:37 pm

Kaeerwen wrote:If you derived that I'm a self-proclaimed christian, then I must've explained something wrong. I in no way believe that I'm a christian. Of course, saying that will probably only lead to me being attacked, but... what the hell, right?

I was referring to anybody who has accepted Jesus as their personal savior... not you.

Tae-Bo · Post by **Tae-Bo** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 9:51 pm

mindia reminds me of those guys on the construction sites that will come up to you and tell you a story about "that fat bitch with the cow titties that i fucked last night" and then 3 minutes later tell you about how his lord and saviour Jesus Christ helped him get off of crystal meth

vonkaar · Post by **vonkaar** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 10:26 pm

Am I the only person that gets a headache when reading Mindia's responses?

Two hints for any future Bible thumping Christian that attempts to counter any of my divine arguments:

First, do everything you can to come off as an unbiased Church-goer, lacking any hidden agendas and personal grudges. It's hard to live a life free of sin but it shouldn't be too hard to type a response, free of sin. There have been a few decent religious rants where the Christians didn't come off as complete elitist assholes. It's hard, but if you try and try... it might work. Step one would be to stop pointing at 'fellow' Christians and telling them how WRONG they are. Why not focus on the good? Ninety-Five percent of your posts in this thread are somehow negative to another CHRISTIAN sect or a member of the board. That makes Jesus cry =/.

Tip number two: Counteract in a logical manner.
Example: I'll say that Jesus and Adolph Hitler were nothing alike. Jesus was kind, Hitler was cruel. Jesus was charitable, Hitler was selfish. Jesus was peace-loving, Hitler was a war-monger.

A Mindia response (as seen above) would look like,
"Ah yes, but they also had ten toes and occasionally sported facial hair. Proof that there really is no difference between the two."

I found two verses that were *quite* contradictory to each other and you responded with cookie-cutter passages that a 9-year old could have translated correctly. Why not go with an easier one... say, John 11:35?

When I set this board up, I hoped that some of the 'deep' and 'intelligent' discussions from the past 2 boards would continue. I'd *really* like this one to become a thread worth remembering... as it is, that's doubtful. Your lack of comprehension and underdeveloped logic lobe will only turn this thread into a let's all laugh at Mindia thread. Hall of shame material, even.

Narrock · Post by **Narrock** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 11:55 pm

vonkaar wrote:Am I the only person that gets a headache when reading Mindia's responses?

Two hints for any future Bible thumping Christian that attempts to counter any of my divine arguments:

First, do everything you can to come off as an unbiased Church-goer, lacking any hidden agendas and personal grudges. It's hard to live a life free of sin but it shouldn't be too hard to type a response, free of sin. There have been a few decent religious rants where the Christians didn't come off as complete elitist assholes. It's hard, but if you try and try... it might work. Step one would be to stop pointing at 'fellow' Christians and telling them how WRONG they are. Why not focus on the good? Ninety-Five percent of your posts in this thread are somehow negative to another CHRISTIAN sect or a member of the board. That makes Jesus cry =/.

Tip number two: Counteract in a logical manner.
Example: I'll say that Jesus and Adolph Hitler were nothing alike. Jesus was kind, Hitler was cruel. Jesus was charitable, Hitler was selfish. Jesus was peace-loving, Hitler was a war-monger.

A Mindia response (as seen above) would look like,
"Ah yes, but they also had ten toes and occasionally sported facial hair. Proof that there really is no difference between the two."

I found two verses that were *quite* contradictory to each other and you responded with cookie-cutter passages that a 9-year old could have translated correctly. Why not go with an easier one... say, John 11:35?

When I set this board up, I hoped that some of the 'deep' and 'intelligent' discussions from the past 2 boards would continue. I'd *really* like this one to become a thread worth remembering... as it is, that's doubtful. Your lack of comprehension and underdeveloped logic lobe will only turn this thread into a let's all laugh at Mindia thread. Hall of shame material, even.

You're so full of it Vonk. I've countered every argument presented by you and everybody else on this thread with logic, reasoning, and fact. My comprehension skills are quite adept thank you very much. You know that this has already turned into a "let's all laugh at Mindia thread" because you guys aren't true Christians, and nobody will ever be able to show you the truth. All you can think about when you read my posts is my cowboy hat, my experience with Call of Ascension, and my right-wing political views.

It's rather unfortunate that most of you guys are pretty narrow-minded (time to quote me and add "haha look who's talking" blah blah blah) when it comes to drugs, religion, and politics. I've known this about many of you for over 3 years now and nothing has changed. Tis folly for me to even try to help some of you see the light when I know deep down inside it will never happen. But then again, it's my duty to keep trying so I'm going to continue my outreach ministry here. It's pretty sad when people care more about getting stoned, getting laid, getting ink, etc. then what really matters in life. Yes, I realize that not everybody has the same set of values and that what's important to me isn't important to everybody else. But once again, I'm still going to attempt to reach out.

You know I'm right about the Catholics and Mormons yet you still continue to try to present a plausible argument, but fall flat on your face when the facts are presented. You're only sticking up for them because they go against what I believe in, and not because you think you have a good "case." Give me a break already. I could staple a fact to your forehead, and because it came from me, you'd find a way to wiggle your way out of it and come up with some BS toedance as to how it's not really a fact.

Post by **Tossica** » Thu Mar 18, 2004 12:06 am

Mindia sez:

"All you can think about when you read my posts is my cowboy hat, my experience with Call of Ascension, and my right-wing political views"

And the fact that you are a retard.

Post by **Tossica** » Thu Mar 18, 2004 12:11 am

You know when I first saw the title for this movie I thought, "Oh shit! Someone did it now! A gay porn about Jesus? Damn! The shit is gonna hit the fan!"

Narrock · Post by **Narrock** » Thu Mar 18, 2004 12:35 am

Tossica wrote:You know when I first saw the title for this movie I thought, "Oh shit! Someone did it now! A gay porn about Jesus? Damn! The shit is gonna hit the fan!"

Wow, you're a funny guy.

Post by **Tossica** » Thu Mar 18, 2004 12:40 am

Keep turning the other cheek. Just think of me as the devil, testing you. Don't give in to your anger. Just pray real hard and maybe god will make me go away.

vonkaar · Post by **vonkaar** » Thu Mar 18, 2004 12:41 am

Well... I'll just leave it to popular consensus on this argument...

However, you are doing the exact same thing that Kuwen, Korwynn and Leadaira always did... "assume" things based on my responses. If your minister were to ask the exact same things, you wouldn't be so offended. I'd hope that you would be able to answer them without resorting to 'cult-bashing' or any of your other 'fun' tactics here... but, who knows? It's QUITE possible to listen to questions about your faith and answer them in the same manner Christ would have =p.

If I mention Biblical contradictions... you either have an explanation for them, you go on faith, or you start insulting other religions =p.

If I have some questions on the sanctity of a 'translated by man' Bible, you should be able to answer them.

If I ask you why you hate a religion enough to spread lies and propaganda on an online message board (talking to the dead?), you should be able to come up with some.. SOME kind of justification.

The fact is, you hear a few questions and automatically assume that I'm some hate-mongering anti-Christ. What is it with you people?

As it turns out, I can pretty much guarantee that I spent the first 18 years of my life in a more chaste and pure lifestyle than probably anybody on this board. I'll be 25 in 1 week, if you were wondering =p. I don't assume ANYTHING on the way you live, other than your ugly choice in hats... but you... once again... you painted someone that you've NEVER met as a sinner. 50 million (or, by their count... 1 billion) Catholics were judged by Mindia. 13 million Mormons were judged by Mindia. One NT admin was judged by Mindia. That's a lot of sinning for someone who's trying to argue for Christ in a message board full of potheads.

Narrock · Post by **Narrock** » Thu Mar 18, 2004 12:59 am

Tossica wrote:Keep turning the other cheek. Just think of me as the devil, testing you. Don't give in to your anger. Just pray real hard and maybe god will make me go away.

You don't need to go away. I enjoy reading your foolishness.

Narrock · Post by **Narrock** » Thu Mar 18, 2004 1:25 am

Vonk, honestly I don't what your motive is for constantly defending the Mormons, but you obviously know very little about them. I took the liberty in presenting to you and to everybody else who reads this thread, the current Mormon doctrines. If you dare call these people "Christians" (other than in a sarcastic manner) then you truly are a lost cause. I can't think of a more whacked-out sinister cult than the LDS "church." I really think you should drop the mormon-defense nonsense because it's not very indicative of an intellectual or religion-savvy person. (Note: These doctrines are documented from Mormon writers, not anti-mormon writers.)

1. The true gospel was lost from the earth. Mormonism is its restoration, Mormon Doctrine, by Bruce R. McConkie, p. 635. They teach there was an apostasy and the true church ceased to exist on earth.

2. We need prophets today, the same as in the Old Testament, Mormon Doctrine, p. 606.

3. The book of Mormon is more correct than the Bible, History of the Church, 4:461.

4. There is no salvation outside the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Mormon Doctrine, p. 670.

5. There are many gods, Mormon Doctrine, p. 163.

6. There is a mother god, Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 443.

7. God used to be a man on another planet, Mormon Doctrine, p. 321.

8. After you become a good Mormon, you have the potential of becoming a god, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pages 345-347, 354.

9. God the Father had a Father (Orson Pratt in The Seer, page 132; One of the purposes of the Seer was "to elucidate" Mormon Doctrine, The Seer, page 1, 1854.

10. God the Father has a body of flesh and bones, Doctrine and Covenants, 130:22.

11. God is in the form of a man, Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, page 3.

12. God is married to his goddess wife and has spirit babies, Mormon Doctrine p. 516.

13. We were first begotten as spirit babies in heaven and then born naturally on earth, Journal of Discourse, Vol. 4, p. 218.

14. The first spirit to be born in heaven was Jesus, Mormon Doctrine, page 129.

15. The Devil was born as a spirit after Jesus "in the morning of pre-existence," Mormon Doctrine, page 192.

16. Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers, Mormon Doctrine, p. 163.

17. A plan of salvation was needed for the people of earth so Jesus offered a plan to the father and Satan offered a plan to the father but Jesus' plan was accepted. In effect the Devil wanted to be the Savior of all Mankind and to "deny men their agency and to dethrone god." Mormon Doctrine, page 193; Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, page 8.

18. God had sexual relations with Mary to make the body of Jesus, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, p. 218, 1857.

19. Jesus' sacrifice was not able to cleanse us from all our sins, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p. 247, 1856.

20. Good works are necessary for salvation, Articles of Faith, p. 92.

21. There is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet of God, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, p. 188.

22. Baptism for the dead, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. II, p. 141. This is a practice of baptizing each other in place of non-Mormons who are now dead. Their belief is that in the afterlife, the "newly baptized" person will be able to enter into a higher level of Mormon heaven.

23. There are three levels of heaven: telestial, terrestrial, and celestial, Mormon Doctrine, p. 348.

Be afraid... very afraid of these people.

Narrock · Post by **Narrock** » Thu Mar 18, 2004 1:37 am

Vonk, here's something else to rival your heresy...

http://www.dokimos.org/trinity/main.html

Drunnken · Post by **Drunnken** » Thu Mar 18, 2004 1:56 am

Mindia, Brigham Young just rose out of the grave and called me collect.

All that he said is "Mindia is an idiot" then hung up

edit: what i wrote above is LESS ridiculous than the garbage you posted about mormons

Narrock · Post by **Narrock** » Thu Mar 18, 2004 1:58 am

Drunnken wrote:Mindia, Brigham Young just rose out of the grave and called me collect.

All that he said is "Mindia is an idiot" then hung up

Looks like you went to the same school of comedy as Tossica did.