Excuses

ClakarEQ · Post by **ClakarEQ** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:26 am

Bush should have called and used strong arm tactics against whomever he needed to in order to make it right.

If he called up Blanco personally and said this isn't being handled well and I beg of you to let us in get this done.

If he had hired a competent(sp) person to run FEMA.

The man in charge could have greatly sped up the buracracy(sp) to get things moving faster then the 48-72 hours "it normally takes" to act.

You think if Mexico invaded Texas he would sit by and wait 48-72 hours for local governments and such to dot the I's and cross the T's? (no I'm sure someone will post that an invasion isn't an act of god like the hurricane was).

While Blanco holds a lot of the blame, to say the Pres doesn't hold as much is a mistake. It doesn't matter how you look at it, He runs the country, the buck stops with him, he holds blame by proxy, no matter how you twist or spin it.

I bet within 2 hours he could have the right folks on the phone to either bash blanco into submission or to make her realize any mistakes she made. Allowing her to deny any assistance (this is still under investigation) was his mistake, and he did have the power to correct that.

xaoshaen · Post by **xaoshaen** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:45 am

ClakarEQ wrote:Bush should have called and used strong arm tactics against whomever he needed to in order to make it right.

If he called up Blanco personally and said this isn't being handled well and I beg of you to let us in get this done.

If he had hired a competent(sp) person to run FEMA.

The man in charge could have greatly sped up the buracracy(sp) to get things moving faster then the 48-72 hours "it normally takes" to act.

You think if Mexico invaded Texas he would sit by and wait 48-72 hours for local governments and such to dot the I's and cross the T's? (no I'm sure someone will post that an invasion isn't an act of god like the hurricane was).

While Blanco holds a lot of the blame, to say the Pres doesn't hold as much is a mistake. It doesn't matter how you look at it, He runs the country, the buck stops with him, he holds blame by proxy, no matter how you twist or spin it.

I bet within 2 hours he could have the right folks on the phone to either bash blanco into submission or to make her realize any mistakes she made. Allowing her to deny any assistance (this is still under investigation) was his mistake, and he did have the power to correct that.

Thanks for proving the points made earlier about the abysmal ignorance regarding the whole "separation of powers" thing that seems to be running rampant. You've just surrendered your right to bitch about the Patriot Act... you can't demand that the government respect civil rights some of the time and blatantly ignore them when you deem fit.

ClakarEQ · Post by **ClakarEQ** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:51 am

Actually no, I've played politician in the way it should be played.

Politican Bush should be half the politician I am and the whole thing would have gone down different.

Did he call her? Did he hire a competent FEMA director? Did he pressure the "system" to expedite the requests? All of these have nothing to do with the patriot act. This is just good ole fashion politics and he couldn't even do that right.

You must know Xao that the game he played has back fired. He never thought shit would hit HIS fan. I guess he forgot what chair he sat in, oops, I'm in charge of the place (takes thumb from mouth).

I've not surrendered a thing, but thanks for trying, NEXT.

xaoshaen · Post by **xaoshaen** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:54 am

ClakarEQ wrote:Actually no, I've played politician in the way it should be played.

Politican Bush should be half the politician I am and the whole thing would have gone down different.

Did he call her? Did he hire a competent FEMA director? Did he pressure the "system" to expedite the requests? All of these have nothing to do with the patriot act. This is just good ole fashion politics and he couldn't even do that right.

You must know Xao that the game he played has back fired. He never thought shit would hit HIS fan. I guess he forgot what chair he sat in, oops, I'm in charge of the place (takes thumb from mouth).

I've not surrendered a thing, but thanks for trying, NEXT.

Take a civics class sometime. You've advocated abrogating the Constitution of the United States. Congratulations! Sure, you could bitch about the Patriot Act if you don't mind being a Mindiaesque hypocrite. You don't get to simply ignore the whole "civil rights" thing when it's convenient for you and whine when someone else does the same thing.

Scoota McGee · Post by **Scoota McGee** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:58 am

Thought this was interesting. Apparently the Federal response to the Katrina hurricane was... the fastest federal response to a hurricane in the history of Federal responses to hurricanes.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05254/568876.stm

mofish · Post by **mofish** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:59 am

This is just a bullshit argument, that somehow the federal government cant immediately respond during a disaster in any of the 50 states. Pure bullshit.

xaoshaen · Post by **xaoshaen** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:07 pm

mofish wrote:This is just a bullshit argument, that somehow the federal government cant immediately respond during a disaster in any of the 50 states. Pure bullshit.

Yeah, it's thanks to that bullshit document, the Constitution. Pure bullshit.

ClakarEQ · Post by **ClakarEQ** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:21 pm

Xao, why can't you answer any of my questions?

I've not asked anything of our president that requires any additional power. There isn't constituational issues for a phone call, are there?

All I"m asking is why didn't the man that "leads" our country play a good political game?

Why did he sit back and let the band play on when he did have the power, under today's laws to make that call and pressure her.

Are you saying politicians don't play strong arm tactics?

You do live here right? You do realize that politics is more then some book you read in school or a class you sit. I know you're smarter then trying to throw text books at this.

mofish · Post by **mofish** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:28 pm

xaoshaen wrote:
mofish wrote:This is just a bullshit argument, that somehow the federal government cant immediately respond during a disaster in any of the 50 states. Pure bullshit.

Yeah, it's thanks to that bullshit document, the Constitution. Pure bullshit.

According to this ridiculous argument, the federal government shouldnt even have been able to scramble jets after 9-11 to patrol the skies above NYC...

Grover Cleveland, 1894 : sent 2,000 national guard in to bust up a strike
JFK: Federalized the Alabama National guard to enforce segregation and restore order in Alabama.

Again, this argument that somehow the Federal Government is constitutionally barred from immediately helping in a time of disaster, to restore order when a state or city's resources are overwhelmed, is nothing but a weak attempt at blame deflection.

Post by **Lueyen** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 5:31 pm

mofish wrote:
xaoshaen wrote:
mofish wrote:This is just a bullshit argument, that somehow the federal government cant immediately respond during a disaster in any of the 50 states. Pure bullshit.

Yeah, it's thanks to that bullshit document, the Constitution. Pure bullshit.

According to this ridiculous argument, the federal government shouldnt even have been able to scramble jets after 9-11 to patrol the skies above NYC...

Grover Cleveland, 1894 : sent 2,000 national guard in to bust up a strike
JFK: Federalized the Alabama National guard to enforce segregation and restore order in Alabama.

Again, this argument that somehow the Federal Government is constitutionally barred from immediately helping in a time of disaster, to restore order when a state or city's resources are overwhelmed, is nothing but a weak attempt at blame deflection.

The events of 9/11 were an attack on this country by a forien entity, an event that does indeed mandate the actions taken in defense of the country. This is infact the reason that yes ClakarEQ, if Mexico did invade Texas, the response by the federal government would be immediate.

Mobilization of the national guard in both cases was done to enforce laws, neither president overstepped thier constitutional bounds, in thier actions they were doing the job of the executive branch of government, they were enforcing the law.

As far as blame deflection, I think you need to take a step into reality for a moment and realize that the first line, the initial fastest reaction was the responsibility of the state government even if that reaction were only to make the call for federal aid. Any attempt to place the blame on someone else is the true source of blame deflection.

clakarEQ wrote:While Blanco holds a lot of the blame, to say the Pres doesn't hold as much is a mistake. It doesn't matter how you look at it, He runs the country, the buck stops with him, he holds blame by proxy, no matter how you twist or spin it.

Your ignorance concerning how our government works astounds me.

Post by **Tossica** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 6:03 pm

I've posted a link and actually cut the fucking text out of the link and posted it. Just read it and shut the fuck up about it. This disaster should have been handled EXACTLY like a terrorist attack, etc and it wasn't. Massive loss of life, disruption of government, property damage, etc.

araby · Post by **araby** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 6:56 pm

I think everyone just needs to chill the fuck out about this. Nagin wishes he'd done something different NOW, just like the governor, michael brown, everybody...the people who didn't leave wish they had, and the ones that got out wish they'd moved years ago....even bush and co, I'm sure wish they'd done something differently but I can't imagine that anyone with a television watched and thought, "well, they'll just have to sit tight 'til we get there!"

it's a catastrophe, NOT a conspiracy and our country is mostly run by the media now. everybody is losing their minds!!

Harrison · Post by **Harrison** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:42 pm

ClakarEQ wrote:Actually no, I've played politician in the way it should be played.

Politican Bush should be half the politician I am and the whole thing would have gone down different.

Did he call her? Did he hire a competent FEMA director? Did he pressure the "system" to expedite the requests? All of these have nothing to do with the patriot act. This is just good ole fashion politics and he couldn't even do that right.

You must know Xao that the game he played has back fired. He never thought shit would hit HIS fan. I guess he forgot what chair he sat in, oops, I'm in charge of the place (takes thumb from mouth).

I've not surrendered a thing, but thanks for trying, NEXT.

Blackdiam · Post by **Blackdiam** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:45 pm

What ever happened to people relying on themselfs instead of having the goverment saving thier ass and don't give me the BS that the poor couldn't help themself either

Goose_Man · Post by **Goose_Man** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 10:02 pm

Blackdiam wrote:What ever happened to people relying on themselfs instead of having the goverment saving thier ass and don't give me the BS that the poor couldn't help themself either

but I'm entitled to my gub'ment cheese

Post by **Lueyen** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 1:00 am

Tossica wrote:I've posted a link and actually cut the fucking text out of the link and posted it. Just read it and shut the fuck up about it. This disaster should have been handled EXACTLY like a terrorist attack, etc and it wasn't. Massive loss of life, disruption of government, property damage, etc.

In the very same text that you linked to it states that the role of state government is to request federal aid if it is immediately obvious that it is not something that the state resources can handle. It took the state a week to determine this, yet you expect the federal government to recognize this immediately? Note that declaring a state of emergency is NOT the same thing as requesting federal aid.

The reasoning behind federal government immediately taking charge of the situation points toward catastrophic events and gives specific examples of terrorist attacks or earthquakes. Of the three things you mentioned that qualify for a catastrophic event, the only one I will concede being similar to the results of an earthquake or nuclear based terrorist attack would be the property damage. The local government was still functioning. As far as loss of life, and not to marginalize those who did lose their lives, but it was a different situation then if an earthquake had hit or a terrorist attack occurred. The biggest difference is warning, where as there would be no warning where the other two were concerned, there was where a hurricane was concerned. A large amount of the population had already left the city, due to an evacuation call. This is in stark contrast to an event where there is no warning, the loss of life simply cannot be on the same scale if a large percentage of the city has already evacuated.

All else aside though, the key factor is that the state government was still functioning, and that is what would raise serious question if the federal government stepped in and took over without the request that is supposed to be made by the state.

Don't get me wrong Tossica, I do see where you draw the parallels, but I also see the stark differences.

Really though I think the core of the whole issue is a difference of perception vs. function. In a time where most citizens of this country see themselves as Americans first before seeing themselves as members of individual states, our government as a whole operates under the exact opposite philosophy. Much of the basis of our government was formed around the idea of strong states rights and a weaker federal government, hell we fought a civil war over the idea of a more powerful federal government. This situation does illustrate a need for a more powerful federal government, but as it has been pointed out at what cost and how far are you willing to take it, to little and it doesn't deal with situations like this well, to much and it becomes dangerously invasive or at least the propensity is there.

Post by **Lyion** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 6:11 am

While it's a tragedy, the purported 10k deaths are currently under 200 right now in New Orleans.
The Search and Rescue teams, Guardsman, and Coast Guard did a spectacular job.

While there were too many screwups, a lot of the blame does indeed have to go on FEMA. The problem is it is a bureaucracy, like every government organiazation and has its own procedures.

The big question which people like Toss seem to ignore is why was The Red Cross, The Salvation Army, and other relief efforts blocked? That needs to be answered fully and Blanco needs to be held accountable.

Minrott · Post by **Minrott** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 7:02 am

I second your big question Lyion. I've been listening to National Public Radio on the way home from work lately, and all they can talk about is how FEMA screwed up, how Bush dropped the ball, how the Federal gov't was all but at fault for even causing the hurricane. But I have yet to even hear Blanco's name mentioned.

kaharthemad · Post by **kaharthemad** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 7:03 am

Mainly the reason for the high body count is because in a lot of areas I have gathered there are alont of bodies previously dead backstoking in the soup.

Since the water tables are high the bodies are buried above ground. I woul suspect that quite a few deaths attributed to it would most likely be bodies outside of thier perspective homes. This was a concern before Kat and I suspect it still is.

Post by **Tossica** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:51 am

Holy fucking shit. I think hell just froze over...

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/13/katrin ... index.html

araby · Post by **araby** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 8:05 pm

They can't find the owners. go figure.

Post by **DangerPaul** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 8:44 pm

Meanwhile, President Bush on Tuesday said he takes responsibility for the federal government's failures in responding to Hurricane Katrina.

So would that mean GW is going to have 4000 + counts of negligent homicide? He claims responsiblity for the fuck up, these people are being punished for their fuck up, only seems fair.

xaoshaen · Post by **xaoshaen** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:06 pm

ClakarEQ wrote:Xao, why can't you answer any of my questions?

I've not asked anything of our president that requires any additional power. There isn't constituational issues for a phone call, are there?

All I"m asking is why didn't the man that "leads" our country play a good political game?

Why did he sit back and let the band play on when he did have the power, under today's laws to make that call and pressure her.

Are you saying politicians don't play strong arm tactics?

You do live here right? You do realize that politics is more then some book you read in school or a class you sit. I know you're smarter then trying to throw text books at this.

I did answer your questions. The Constitution is very clear as to what the President can and can't do. You've asked for him to overstep these bounds.

xaoshaen · Post by **xaoshaen** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:07 pm

Tossica wrote:I've posted a link and actually cut the fucking text out of the link and posted it. Just read it and shut the fuck up about it. This disaster should have been handled EXACTLY like a terrorist attack, etc and it wasn't. Massive loss of life, disruption of government, property damage, etc.

Katirna couldn't have been handled exactly like a terrorist attack, and in your quest to pin blame on a political party, you've completely ignored the legal and logistic realities of the situation.

xaoshaen · Post by **xaoshaen** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 2:12 pm

mofish wrote:
xaoshaen wrote:
mofish wrote:This is just a bullshit argument, that somehow the federal government cant immediately respond during a disaster in any of the 50 states. Pure bullshit.

Yeah, it's thanks to that bullshit document, the Constitution. Pure bullshit.

According to this ridiculous argument, the federal government shouldnt even have been able to scramble jets after 9-11 to patrol the skies above NYC...

Nope, sorry.

Grover Cleveland, 1894 : sent 2,000 national guard in to bust up a strike
JFK: Federalized the Alabama National guard to enforce segregation and restore order in Alabama.

Yep, the President can, in certain situations, federalize National Guard units. How exactly did you think they get sent to war? Do you have any idea what the procedure is for such an action? Why and when can the president do so? What's the time frame for such an action? What is the state's role in the process?

Again, this argument that somehow the Federal Government is constitutionally barred from immediately helping in a time of disaster, to restore order when a state or city's resources are overwhelmed, is nothing but a weak attempt at blame deflection.

I'm terribly sorry you find little things like the Constitution to be inconvenient, but the fact remains that they do exist. In actuality, the federal government did send the resources it could, even before the hurricane had receded. No, the feds didn't handle everything perfectly, but the amount of blame they're taking from the civically ignorant is vastly out of proportion to their performance.