Disturbing case in Denver

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Disturbing case in Denver

Post by Arlos »

The question here is whether people should be required to have "papers" with them whenever they travel. It is truly disturbing that someone should be required to have (and show) ID when they are walking down a street, shopping at Walmart or riding a public bus. As the article says, it is the equivalent of a search without a warrant. Here's the article, which can be found here: http://www.papersplease.org/davis/ :

Next Stop: Big Brother

Meet Deborah Davis. She's a 50 year-old mother of four who lives and works in Denver, Colorado. Her kids are all grown-up: her middle son is a soldier fighting in Iraq. She leads an ordinary, middle class life. You probably never would have heard of Deb Davis if it weren't for her belief in the U.S. Constitution.

One morning in late September 2005, Deb was riding the public bus to work. She was minding her own business, reading a book and planning for work, when a security guard got on this public bus and demanded that every passenger show their ID. Deb, having done nothing wrong, declined. The guard called in federal cops, and she was arrested and charged with federal criminal misdemeanors after refusing to show ID on demand.

On the 9th of December 2005, Deborah Davis will be arraigned in U.S. District Court in a case that will determine whether Deb and the rest of us live in a free society, or in a country where we must show "papers" whenever a cop demands them.

Deb Davis likes to commute to work by public bus. She uses the time to read, crochet or pay bills. It's her quiet time. What with the high price of gas, she saves money, too: a week's worth of gas money gets her a month's worth of bus rides.

The bus she rides crosses the property of the Denver Federal Center, a collection of government offices such as the Veterans Administration, the U.S. Geological Survey, and part of the National Archives. The Denver Federal Center is not a high security area: it's not Area 51 or NORAD.

On her first day commuting to work by bus, the bus stopped at the gates of the Denver Federal Center. A security guard got on and demanded that all of the passengers on this public bus produce ID. She was surprised by the demand of the man in uniform, but she complied: it would have meant a walk of several miles if she hadn't. Her ID was not taken and compared to any "no-ride" list. The guard barely glanced at it.

When she got home, what had happened on the bus began to bother her. 'This is not a police state or communist Russia', she thought. From her 8th grade Civics class she knew there is no law requiring her, as an American citizen, to carry ID or any papers, much less show them to anyone on a public bus.

She decided she would no longer show her ID on the bus.

The Compliance Test

On Monday, September 26th 2005, Deb Davis headed off to work on the route 100 bus. When the bus got to the gates of the Denver Federal Center, a guard got on and asked her if she had an ID. She answered in the affirmative. He asked if he could see it. She said no.

When the guard asked why she wouldn't show her ID, Deb told him that she didn't have to do so. The guard then ordered her off the bus. Deb refused, stating she was riding a public bus and just trying to get to work.

The guard then went to call his supervisor, and returned shortly with a federal policeman. The federal cop then demanded her ID. Deb politely explained once again that she would not show her ID, and she was simply commuting to work. He left, returning shortly thereafter with a second policeman in tow.

The Second Compliance Test
This second cop asked the same question and got the same answer: no showing of ID, no getting off the bus.

The cop was also annoyed with the fact that she was on the phone with a friend and didn't feel like hanging up, even when he 'ordered' her to do so.

The second cop said everyone had to show ID any time they were asked by the police, adding that if she were in a Wal-Mart and was asked by the police for ID, that she would have to show it there, too.

She explained that she didn't have to show him or any other policeman my ID on a public bus or in a Wal-Mart. She told him she was simply trying to go to work.

The Arrest
Suddenly, the second policeman shouted "Grab her!" and he grabbed the cell phone from her and threw it to the back of the bus. With each of the policemen wrenching one of her arms behind her back, she was jerked out of her seat, the contents of her purse and book bag flying everywhere. The cops shoved her out of the bus, handcuffed her, threw her into the back seat of a police cruiser, and drove her to a police station inside the confines of the Denver Federal Center.

Once inside, she was taken down a hall and told to sit in a chair, still handcuffed, while one of the policemen went through her purse, now retrieved from the bus.

The two policemen sat in front of their computers, typing and conferring, trying to figure out what they should charge her with. Eventually, they wrote up several tickets, took her outside and removed the handcuffs, returned her belongings, and pointed her toward the bus stop. She was told that if she ever entered the Denver Federal Center again, she would go to jail.

She hasn't commuted by public bus since that day.

Deborah Davis' case is about one thing: the right to travel.

The reason why she was charged has absolutely nothing to do with security. The guard at the Denver Federal Center wasn't checking IDs against a 'no ride' list: there is no such thing. The demands made against Deb Davis were nothing more than a compliance test, a demand that she kowtow to officialdom. And lest we forget, having to show your ID is a search without a warrant.

The significance of Deb's case was readily apparent to the American Civil Liberties Union of Colorado, who immediately arranged free legal representation. The first-rate legal team of ACLU volunteers Norman Mueller and Gail Johnson — attorneys from the prominent Colorado criminal defense firm of Haddon, Morgan, Mueller, Jordan, Mackey & Foreman, P.C. — are mounting a vigorous defense on Deborah Davis' behalf.

Deborah Davis responded to this compliance test in a way that would have made the Founding Fathers proud. She is being prosecuted for no reason other than being 'uppity' in the face of authority.

When Deb is arraigned in U.S. District Court on the 9th of December, she will most likely be charged with the following federal criminal misdemeanors: 41 CFR § 102-74.375 (Admission to Property) and 41 CFR § 102-74.385 (Conformity to Official Signs and Directions).

Through these charges, it appears that the Feds are claiming that people were on notice that they had to show ID. Nowhere is this evident, unless 'Public Welcome' flags are bureaucratese for 'Papers, please'. In addition, Deb wasn't even visiting the Denver Federal Center. That the public bus transits the facility isn't her fault. If the Center really is Denver's answer to Area 51, then public buses should be driving around — not through — the Center.

What does an ID, any ID, do for security? The honest answer is 'not much'. If anything, relying on ID for security purposes actually makes things worse.Showing ID only affects honest people. If you're dishonest, you can obtain false documents or steal the identity of an honest person.

If a 19 year-old college student can get a fake ID to drink, why couldn't a bad person get one, too? And no matter how sophisticated the security embedded into the ID, wouldn't a well-financed terrorist be able to falsify that, too? The answer to both questions is obviously 'yes'.

Honest people, on the other hand, go to Pro-Life rallies. Honest people attend gun shows. Honest people protest the President of the United States. Honest people fly to political conventions.

Honest people also commute by public bus to work. What if those with the power to put people on a 'no ride' list decided that they didn't like the reason for which you wanted to travel? The honest people wouldn't be going anywhere. Bad people, besides using fake IDs and stolen identities, can also make the system of checking IDs work in their favor. The Carnival Booth effect, as described by researchers at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, means that terrorists can probe an ID security system by sending a number of people on innocent trips through the system and noting who is flagged for extra searches and who isn't. They then send only those who the system doesn't flag on terrorist missions.

Still, some Americans think that 'if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear'. Were the Founding Fathers criminals trying to protect themselves when they inserted the 4th and 5th amendments into the Bill of Rights? After all, nobody who hasn't done anything wrong needs to worry about being searched or being forced to testify against himself. Over the years, Americans have become accustomed to showing ID in any number of circumstances. Few have asked the question, 'Why?'.

The Department of Homeland Security has attempted to institute programs predicated on the use of ID to improve security. The fact of the matter is that demands for ID do nothing for security while making honest Americans less free.


Let me close with a couple quotes from a rather famous individual which encapsulates my opinion on the subject rather neatly:

Benjamin Franklin wrote:"Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."

and

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."


Discuss.

-Arlos
Last edited by Arlos on Fri Nov 25, 2005 2:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by mofish »

This reminded me of something. My friend just drove from Salt Lake back to New Orleans last week. As soon as he crossed into north Texas, he had to pull off the INTERSTATE for a mandatory check at a weigh station or something.

That's right. The cops had the entire interstate blockaded, made everyone pull off. They ran a dog around his car, and were total assholes to him. Cleancut guy too. What the fuck is that shit. Do I live in fucking America or China?
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Post by Martrae »

Anyone else seeing the irony of Arlos posting a quote about security and freedoms?
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Post by Arlos »

Hrm? I think I have been quite consistent in arguing against things like the Patriot act, which destroy basic freedoms of this country in the name of "Security." Ben Franklin's quotes merely make the same point in a more eloquent fashion.

Or, perhaps, are you referring to the Iraqi war, which I think harms the security of this nation far more than it helps it?

Show me where, ever, I have suggested that individual rights should be curtailed? I think I have been pretty consistent in arguing that MORE needs to be done to preserve individual freedom. My line is now, and has always been, "If what you're doing is hurting other people, then it shouldn't be done, but if you're only hurting yourself, well, it's your body and your life."

If you personally are willing to give up your rights and freedoms in the name of dubious increases in "security" well, that's your right to believe that. It's just not what the Founding Fathers believed was right.

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Post by mofish »

Neocon logic : You oppose the Iraq invasion, you oppose security and freedom.

There you go Arlos, simple.
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Post by Martrae »

I've always advocated smaller government and less intrusions in our lives.

This event is just another example of why having the government run everything from the schools to airport security to welfare to social security is bad. But, hey, lets have the government take over health care too and really sign over all our freedoms.

Let's rely on the government to hold our hands when we are too stupid to stock up when we KNOW it's hurricane season. It's just easier to bitch the government doesn't care while we stand in line with our hands out, isn't it?

Funny thing is we agree that this shouldn't have happened to this lady. She did absolutely nothing wrong and I admire her for standing up for her rights.
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Post by Martrae »

And where did I say anything about Iraq....this has diddly squat to do with it.
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Post by Lyion »

But the issue isn't having 'papers' whenever you go somewhere. It's a matter of going through a non-public federal area.

Arlos wrote:The bus she rides crosses the property of the Denver Federal Center, a collection of government offices such as the Veterans Administration, the U.S. Geological Survey, and part of the National Archives.


That is why she needed I.D. It has nothing to do with a random stop, but with entering private federal property.

Should she have been arrested? I don't think so, but Denver police have a very good reputation and I'd like to hear both sides.

Forgive me if I find some small measure of protection for our V.A offices and National Archives warranted.

I'd like to know if she knew beforehand the bus went through Federal property that required I.D..
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Post by Minrott »

Yeah. Because that's the only time this has happened.

On the evening of the 21st of May, 2000, Dudley Hiibel stepped out of his red 1988 GMC pick-up truck and lit a cigarette. The pick-up was parked on the side of Grass Valley Road, a rural stretch of asphalt that leads out of the mining town of Winnemucca into the rural cattle ranching area where Dudley lives and farms.
Grass Valley Road, where the incident occurred.

The pick-up had been driven by Dudley's 17 year-old daughter Mimi, with whom Dudley had been having an argument over a boy Dudley didn't approve of that she'd been seeing in town. Mimi got mad at her dad and punched him in the shoulder. They continued shouting at one another as they drove back to to the ranch, and Mimi eventually pulled over the truck after her dad said he wanted out.

That's what Dudley Hiibel was doing that May evening in 2000: standing on the side of Grass Valley Road smoking a cigarette, his elbow resting on the rolled-down passenger window, talking with his daughter.

Then the police arrived.

Deputy Lee Dove of the Humboldt County Sheriff's Department came on the scene - siren a-wailing - in response to a domestic violence report. Someone saw Mimi arguing with her dad and thought it had come to blows. The witness said that he saw "a man with a black cowboy hat" who "slugged the female". Dove was there to investigate the report.

Everything that happened next is all on videotape... you be the judge.

If you think that the first thing Deputy Dove would do on the scene would be to make sure the 'slugged female' was all right, you would be wrong. Deputy Dove never asked or even looked at Mimi until she had been thrown to the ground face-first and handcuffed.
Deputy Lee Dove's ideas on law enforcement are not those of the average American.

But that comes later in the story.

Rather than investigate the complaint, Deputy Dove (who has twice had evidence he collected suppressed by the court) instead began to demand Dudley Hiibel show his ID. Eleven times Dove demanded Dudley show 'his papers'. Dudley asked a simple question: why?

"Because I'm investigating", said Dove.

"Investigating what?" Dudley asked.

"I'm investigating an investigation" was Dove's non-reply.

Eleven times Dove demanded Dudley's ID. And when the Deputy decided Dudley wasn't "going to cooperate", he cuffed, then tossed him in the back of his patrol car.
And It Didn't Stop There

Meanwhile, Dudley's daughter was watching the encounter between her dad and the Law from the cab of the pick-up truck. You can hear her screaming "Nooo" as her father is being handcuffed.

Another policeman, a Nevada state trooper by the name of Merschel, was on the scene and was holding the door of the pick-up truck shut so that Mimi couldn't get out. Screaming, she finally forced the door open only to be thrown face down into the hard dirt by the side of the road by Trooper Merschel.

The video is almost too painful to watch at this point. A second trooper climbs on top of Mimi and he and Trooper Merschel brutally pin 17 year-old Mimi to the ground and slap on the cuffs.
Dudley and his pick-up.

With Dudley Hiibel arrested for refusing to show ID and his daughter Mimi beaten and in handcuffs, Deputy Lee Dove now comes over to talk to Mimi and 'investigate'.
The Aftermath

Dudley Hiibel was charged with Domestic Battery, Battery, Acts Which Constitute Domestic Violence, and Obstructing/Delaying A Peace Officer. As there was no battery or domestic violence involved, the only charge that was left was Delaying A Peace Officer. By refusing to show Deputy Lee Dove his ID, Dudley was fined $250.00 . He's appealling it all the way to the United States Supreme Court.

It is this very charge that is now coming before the U.S. Supreme Court on the 22nd of March. The question before the Court is this: Did Dudley's refusal to show ID give Deputy Dove the probable cause needed to arrest him? Or is it the Constitutional right of every American to just say 'no' when asked to produce 'the papers'?

Mimi Hiibel was hauled-off to juvenile detention and charged with resisting arrest. In court, her father asked the judge a simple question: what charge was Mimi arrested for resisting? The case was dismissed.

Watch the video. See the incident unfold. You decide...
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Sorry Lyion, no "small measure of protection" is worth any of my freedoms.

Get ready for a universal federal ID. Get ready to produce it whenever asked. And get ready for 100 million inbred unlearned rejects saying, "oh if it makes us safer why not do it? Don't be a trouble maker! The government is here to help us!"
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Post by Lyion »

I'm probably the most libertarian on this board. However I have no problem with needing I.D. to enter FEDERAL PRIVATE PROPERTY.

The two situations are vastly different. Hiibels case is going to be heard by SCOTUS and should be thrown out and the police investigated.

Davis wasn't randomly accosted on a public bus riding down the street, she was I.D.ed trying to enter FEDERAL PRIVATE PROPERTY.
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Post by Tikker »

I can understand not wanting to give up freedoms, and rights, but I don't see the big fucking deal about showing a cop your ID


I mean really, how big of a fucking deal is it?
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Post by Captain Insano »

I've always said the police in this country are really just the gestapo in blue... They should really start wearing the double lightning bolts on their arms and starting every conversation with "Zig Heil!" before they arrest, charge and convict innocent people.

Just so every knows the gestapo headquarters for the national police is headquartered in San Diego... So you really don't want to go there.
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Post by Tikker »

seig

not zig
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Post by Arlos »

Lyion, she was not attempting to get OFF the bus. She was sitting on the bus, reading a paper. If the feds want to ask for ID for people actually entering the property (ie, exiting the PUBLIC PLACE that a bus represents) that's one thing. But that is a city bus, and she made no effort whatsoever to exit said bus. So, yes, she *WAS* on a bus riding down the street. Also, look at the cop's comments, he said she would have had to show her ID if she were in a Walmart, so he certainly wasn't using the fact that the bus happened to be passing federal property as the basis for his statements. The police were flat-out wrong, and it is no different whatsoever from the Hiibels case.

Tikker, what it comes down to is whether or not we, as citizens, have the right to go where we please, when we please, and whether or not we are free from being hassled by officialdom when their is neither probable cause or warrant. If there's a warrant out for your arrest and the police are trying to make sure they're getting the right person, that's one thing. If you're just innocently shopping in Walmart, there is no reason whatsoever to need to provide any official with any sort of identification.

What someone else should do is go on the same bus, but be on the phone to the media at the time, so that the conversation is recorded. Have a friend in the back of the bus with a digital video recorder phone or something and record the proceedings to pass those to the media as well.

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Post by Tikker »

By the same token Arlos, if you've done nothing wrong, who gives a shit if a cop asks to see your ID?

I mean really, what kind of freedom is being repressed by randomly asking you to show your drivers license?
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Post by Arlos »

Read the article for some refutation to those points.

Still, some Americans think that 'if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear'. Were the Founding Fathers criminals trying to protect themselves when they inserted the 4th and 5th amendments into the Bill of Rights? After all, nobody who hasn't done anything wrong needs to worry about being searched or being forced to testify against himself.


There are very specific protections written into the Bill of Rights that prohibit such action by the police. They need concrete reasons to engage in a search of any kind. Allowing such stops and forced showing of ID completely breaks the 4th amendment.

It is, in some ways, a slippery-slope type of argument. If we're willing to give in on this point of liberty in the name of "security", who is to say what will be ask of us next? Might someday we have to ask permission to travel somewhere before we go? After all, if it's a legitimate trip, what reason do we have to fear? Yet, by agreeing to such a system, I have lost that fundamental right to go where I wish, when I wish, for whatever reason I wish to do so.

Compromising the Constitution in the name of "security" is wrong, and is abhorrent. I am completely against the idea of a "national ID card" system, and hope it is either never passed, or gets shot down in the Supreme Court if it does get passed in congress. Look at it this way: If you have 2 people as far apart on the political spectrum as Martrae and myself agreeing that this is an egregious breech of freedom, and is entirely unconstitutional, methinks that should perk up your attention, yes?

-Arlos
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Post by dammuzis »

this article sends shivers down my spine.

think of it this way historically

what countries require this kind of thing

nazi germany
communist china
ussr

this type of harrasment as arlos pointed out is SPECIFICALYY prohibited in the constitution. any argument of "if your doing nothin wrong why not" ends with that point

besides what if the thing you are doing wrong is nothing more then being born arab or following a certain religeon?
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Post by Lueyen »

Power tends to corrupt; absolute power corupts absolutely. - Lord Acton


ID checks of this nature will have little effect on security. I'm all for aiding law enforcement in an effort to catch criminals or terrorists. The problem here is that this has a huge propensity to become a method of harasment by officers, if it isn't already.

There are a lot of good men and women in law enforcement, but there are also those on a power trip. To suggest that methods like this could eventually lead to a situation similar to that of Nazi Germany, or communist countries is I think a very reasonable fear. Pre 9-11, previous to the patriot act, an extremely well educated friend of mine who has never had a brush with the law, was pulled over and upon seeing his licence, registration and insurance the police officer made the comment that "your papers seem to be in order". There are those in law enforcement that step over the bounds, that see themselves in a capacity not unlike that of an SS trooper. It is the higher power of the constitution that keeps people like this in check, and it is situations like the one in the article that will keep that balance. When law enforcement or government over steps it's bounds, we can not stand by and watch it happen without protest, lest it become common place. Freedom is not lost over night, it is not lost in a single step, it's done over time with the loss of small freedoms. Small concecions could eventually be the downfall of freedom.

While the very idea of government is that people as a whole give up some of thier absolute freedom for order and protection, this should never be done lightly, and always closely watched. If the idea of random ID checks is allowed then we lose freedom, but without any gain in security.
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Post by Minrott »

By the same token Arlos, if you've done nothing wrong, who gives a shit if a cop asks to see your ID?


Exactly. It's so simple. You've done nothing wrong, so it's no problem to show your I.D. 99% of our complacent society will say the same thing. So, random traffic stops, for no reason are ok too. If you don't have a body in your trunk, it's cool. While we're at it, what's really the point of search warrants? If you're not growing weed in your basement, why not let the cops come in and look around whenever they want? Only someone doing something wrong would be against that! It's all in the name of safety from terrorism and the war on drugs, well as long as it's making me safer, it's A O K by me! Hell, why don't we finger print and DNA test everyone before they get a social security card, just so we know just who is who all the time.

Because it's a slippery fucking slope, that's why. It's unconstitutional, it's gestapo like control tactics, and it's the first step towards a draconian set of 'rules of citizenship'.
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Post by The Kizzy »

She's riding on a bus. He asks for her id. For what reason? He didn't even check it against any list, he was ust being an ass. I can understand if he was checking it against the no-ride list as stated in the article, but he wasn't. He was just pushing his authority around.
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Post by kaharthemad »

Lyion wrote:I'm probably the most libertarian on this board. However I have no problem with needing I.D. to enter FEDERAL PRIVATE PROPERTY.


Then a public transportation does not need to be driving thru FED Land. She should sue the public transit authority. Did the police officer ID the Bus Driver? After all he might not be who he says he is...and hell Im sure the security guard from Pinkerton knew how to spot a fake ID>

I frankly dont think she was in the wrong. what would happen if say....she forgot her papers at work...or at home? Would they then nightstick her for forgetting something that we all are guilty of at one time or another? Frankly I would have resisted as well.

People need only to provide identification to a police officer or a US authority during a investigation of a possible crime. I dont remember what crime was commited here.
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Post by Lyion »

kaharthemad wrote:
Lyion wrote:I'm probably the most libertarian on this board. However I have no problem with needing I.D. to enter FEDERAL PRIVATE PROPERTY.


People need only to provide identification to a police officer or a US authority during a investigation of a possible crime. I dont remember what crime was commited here.


See, we disagree completely here. Police can say they are investigating a crime every time they talk to someone. People should only be required to show ID if they are driving on a state road and pulled over for a traffic violation.

Any other time police should show just cause for asking, and if they don't there should be repercussions.

This incident is differerent and has nothing to do with freedoms, it is a person entering federal private property. It doesn't matter if you walk, drive, or ride a bus , you are still entering the federal property. The bus is not 'public' as soon as it enters that area, period, anymore than if a bus decided to drive into any other secure area.
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Post by Martrae »

Wow....so people in Washington DC should show their ID every 3 steps I guess.
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Post by kaharthemad »

ahh yes...perhaps we can go with a tattoo system then.

If this is a problem then they need to avoid going thru FedLand. perhaps dropping the federal employees out and making them walk for a change.

It would be like a bus going thru Microsoft Compound. I think it is a invasion of rights. Franly if they go into the compound then yes but a public transport should not be going thru there. Its like giving tours of the fucking pentagon's third tier.
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Lyion
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Post by Lyion »

Martrae wrote:Wow....so people in Washington DC should show their ID every 3 steps I guess.


Nope, I've worked in DC and it goes through less ID fed space than Dallas or Denver.
What saves a man is to take a step. Then another step.
C. S. Lewis
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