So, last night I'm playing AV for the second time as an Alliance character. It's a pickup raid, but we're doing surprisingly well, and wind up capturing or destroying everything outside of the Horde base. We do all the usual prep for capturing the base, griffon riders, cavalry, Ivus, and head in, only to be met by a tidal wave of NPCs.
There don't appear to be any special summons, no wolf riders or anything, just an ungodly number of upgraded champions. We eventually AE them all to death and regroup to push back in. We hit the towers and... the same tidal wave of NPCs rolls out to greet us. It would have been tough to take the base even without any Horde players at that point.
I've now both defended and captured the Alliance base, and I've never seen anything comparable occur on that end. Did we jack something up or is there a glitch in the Horde base? Just please tell me that's not the way it's supposed to work...
Alterac Valley question
Moderator: Dictators in Training
Tacks wrote:alliance get easymode everything else...just a step in evening things out!
Having actually levelled both alliance and horde characters to 60, there's not much of a difference. Horde have a slight advantage in PvP, thanks largely to racial bonuses and an extra dispelling class. Alliance have a slight PvE edge, thanks to an extra dispelling class there.
Overall, it doesn't make a huge difference when you're levelling. The population imbalance on some servers plays a much larger role, I'd say.
I completely disagree. Just from getting tranquil totem it has made an absolutely tremendous difference in the way our fights go. And now with the dispel nerfs it makes paladins even better in PVE then they were before. Chromaggus TL + Ignite is not fun with 5 priests post-nerf.
So it's more balanced now with 1.9 then it was before but whenever dispells are needed Alliance still have a huge benefit.
So it's more balanced now with 1.9 then it was before but whenever dispells are needed Alliance still have a huge benefit.
Tacks wrote:I completely disagree. Just from getting tranquil totem it has made an absolutely tremendous difference in the way our fights go. And now with the dispel nerfs it makes paladins even better in PVE then they were before. Chromaggus TL + Ignite is not fun with 5 priests post-nerf.
So, how do you disagree? Are you claiming the Horde racial abilities aren't better suited for PvP? Are you claiming that an extra dispelling class doesn't make PvP easier? The dispell nerf hit the alliance in PvP the same way that it hit the horde in PvE.
So it's more balanced now with 1.9 then it was before but whenever dispells are needed Alliance still have a huge benefit.
And it's exactly the opposite in PvP. Whenever dispells are needed, the Horde have a huge advantage.
Horde racials are better for pvp, but not enough to sway a fight one way or another. As a rogue against a decent team you may as well say fuck stealthing because humans see you a mile away and will ALWAYS cast it whenever a group is attacking. In fact NE Hunters have the most overpowered racial in the game right now. Can you say the same thing for PVE? Ditching Shaman for Paladins in the PVE game is easymode, period.
As for pvp it all depends on what type of pvp you are playing. NE Hunters + Paladins defending in AB or WSG is basically game-breaking when you aren't playing a pickup. Nothing on Horde comes close even given the leet racial abilities.
In other words do you think you'd lose a match in AB because your rogue got a stun resist on an orc shaman and the undead d00d used WotF against a fear or would you rather have a hidden NE Hunter able to lob nuclear bombs at you from stealth while the paladin holds the flag for the next 3 minutes while help arrives?
As for pvp it all depends on what type of pvp you are playing. NE Hunters + Paladins defending in AB or WSG is basically game-breaking when you aren't playing a pickup. Nothing on Horde comes close even given the leet racial abilities.
In other words do you think you'd lose a match in AB because your rogue got a stun resist on an orc shaman and the undead d00d used WotF against a fear or would you rather have a hidden NE Hunter able to lob nuclear bombs at you from stealth while the paladin holds the flag for the next 3 minutes while help arrives?
Last edited by Tacks on Thu Jan 12, 2006 1:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I wanted to add, playing Horde and using the new totem against Vael the day 1.9 came out was ridiculously easy. We wouldn't have been stuck at Vael for 2 months had we been given the bullshit advantage Alliance had for the past how many months in BWL? Now they throw in the dispell nerf throwing favor back to alliance once again.
Tacks wrote:Horde racials are better for pvp, but not enough to sway a fight one way or another. As a rogue against a decent team you may as well say fuck stealthing because humans see you a mile away and will ALWAYS cast it whenever a group is attacking. In fact NE Hunters have the most overpowered racial in the game right now. Can you say the same thing for PVE? Ditching Shaman for Paladins in the PVE game is easymode, period.
Yeah, Perception that can be used for 20 seconds every three minutes? You're exaggerating horribly here, as rogues and druids routinely use stealth sucessfully, even in AV. The biggest use for Perception, speaking as a level 60 human warrior on a PvP server, is to prevent rogues from escaping once a fight turns against them. Thanks, but WotF, Stun Immunity, and War Stomp are all significantly better. Ditching paladins for shaman in the PvP game is easymode, period.
As for pvp it all depends on what type of pvp you are playing. NE Hunters + Paladins defending in AB or WSG is basically game-breaking when you aren't playing a pickup. Nothing on Horde comes close even given the leet racial abilities.
Sorry, but, uhh... no. I've been on both sides of that, in well-organized teams to boot.
Tacks wrote:I wanted to add, playing Horde and using the new totem against Vael the day 1.9 came out was ridiculously easy. We wouldn't have been stuck at Vael for 2 months had we been given the bullshit advantage Alliance had for the past how many months in BWL? Now they throw in the dispell nerf throwing favor back to alliance once again.
And yet, the Alliance hasn't gotten anything at all to offset the Horde's PvP dispell advantage.
Tacks wrote:ROFL you're obviously inept.
Yeah, I'm the one who didn't find the ol' Hunter/Paladin defense to be "game-breaking" as a shaman, but I'm inept. Good call there.
And no, having played with you, I don't actually consider you inept. I just think you're whining way too much in order to strengthen your position. I'd guess it has its roots in the bad old days when the Horde really was at a striking disadvantage.
You avoid the situations I talked about and went straight for the omgz stun immunitiezzzz and 5 seconds of wotf!
That would be because you didn't actually have those situations in your post until after I was responding. If you let a paladin hold a flag solo for three minutes, you need to take a good long look in the mirror. I think that the hunter stealth issue does need to be looked at, but it's hardly the game-breaking ability you make it out to be. There are quite a few ways to counter it.
Last edited by xaoshaen on Thu Jan 12, 2006 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
So give them a fucking dispell advantage too then Alliance can have the best of every world! Makes total fucking sense to me! Once again you focus on menial shit that means absolutly nothing in the grand scheme of the battle. You not getting your dispell isn't anywhere comparable to being shot out of nowhere for 2000+ while your paladin buddy holds the flag for 2 minutes while the rest of the zerg collective shows up in defense.
But wait, at least I won't have the 100 damage every 3 second dot in the meantime!
But wait, at least I won't have the 100 damage every 3 second dot in the meantime!
You know as well as I do against any Repentence paladin they can hold the flag basically as long as they want to against certain classes, it's a war of attrition. I'm not saying I would lose in the end but you know what I'm talking about. Anyways I never said "solo" I said Hunter/Paladin flag defense.
Tacks wrote:So give them a fucking dispell advantage too then Alliance can have the best of every world! Makes total fucking sense to me! Once again you focus on menial shit that means absolutly nothing in the grand scheme of the battle. You not getting your dispell isn't anywhere comparable to being shot out of nowhere for 2000+ while your paladin buddy holds the flag for 2 minutes while the rest of the zerg collective shows up in defense.
Well, at least the indestructible Paladin has had his flag defense reduced to two minutes now. Poor fellow must be getting tired by now! I do not, for an instant, believe that you actually discount dispell so heavily in PvP. Instant nullification of shields, buffs, and heals over time is huge, and you know it. This is what's known as a force multiplier, and it's a much larger advantage than allowing a hunter to act like a rogue, offsetting mobility with range. Despite all the Alliance whining about Frost Shock, Purge was 100% my most important spell in PvP as a shaman.
I never said that the Alliance should have the PvP dispell advantage. I just pointed out that, the Horde has in fact received an ability to mitigate the Alliance advantage in PvE. The Alliance has received no such mitigation in PvP.
Last edited by xaoshaen on Thu Jan 12, 2006 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tacks wrote:You know as well as I do against any Repentence paladin they can hold the flag basically as long as they want to against certain classes, it's a war of attrition. I'm not saying I would lose in the end but you know what I'm talking about. Anyways I never said "solo" I said Hunter/Paladin flag defense.
Ok, against certain classes, I'll give you. Of course, every class has strong and weak matchups. For example, as a shaman, I tore up priests. I can only recall losing to a priest once, when he critted literally every mind blast he got off.
Tacks wrote:I wanted to add, playing Horde and using the new totem against Vael the day 1.9 came out was ridiculously easy. We wouldn't have been stuck at Vael for 2 months had we been given the bullshit advantage Alliance had for the past how many months in BWL? Now they throw in the dispell nerf throwing favor back to alliance once again.
Did it take two months, when it used to be 1hr in between fights?
We only raid 3 nights a week, and it was back when you only had 1 hour windows to kill him, yes. Our problem was not from transitions at all. Our problem was a lack of dps or overagro. Had we been given Tranquil Totem back then we'd have gotten Vael down in a week or two. As it stands now, we would cosistantly kill Vael 20-30 seconds after the buff wore off. The DAY after the totem was put in we killed Vael in 2:30...something is wrong there and it's bullshit that alliance still try to say that they didn't have a huge advantage. And Vael wasn't even the worst, it's just an example that most people can relate to because I doubt most people here fought the drakes when they were immune to taunt...talk about autoattacking and pulling agro...
Tacks wrote:We only raid 3 nights a week, and it was back when you only had 1 hour windows to kill him, yes. Our problem was not from transitions at all. Our problem was a lack of dps or overagro. Had we been given Tranquil Totem back then we'd have gotten Vael down in a week or two. As it stands now, we would cosistantly kill Vael 20-30 seconds after the buff wore off. The DAY after the totem was put in we killed Vael in 2:30...something is wrong there and it's bullshit that alliance still try to say that they didn't have a huge advantage. And Vael wasn't even the worst, it's just an example that most people can relate to because I doubt most people here fought the drakes when they were immune to taunt...talk about autoattacking and pulling agro...
We do Chromaggus our 4th attempt ever our first day last week, today we wiped on flamegore x6. Fuck BWL.
Going back to the original portion of the thread, it does seem a little odd, but perhaps some stuff got trained out of the stronghold with the General in there, or from the towers themselves. (there's a surprising amount of mobs in those towers)
BTW, speaking AS a paladin, I'd like to note that rumors of our indestructability are greatly exaggerated. Yes, we can go invulnerable to everything for a whole 12 seconds. Once every 5 minutes. Our other invuln is also on a 5 minute timer (3 min with max talents) but only works against melee, and is purgeable. Oh, and in the STAGGERINGLY AWESOME REVAMP (gee, sarcasm, I fucking hated most of the 1.9 changes, but that's another topic) we just got, we cannot use them back to back, any invuln now gives a 1 min debuff preventing the use of any other invuln.
You know how to get rid of paladins? Fear & mana burn. All of our offense (especially post-revamp) is based on mana, strip that and we're screwed. Odds of us having enough shadow resist to stop the casts is roughly nil. Purge/dispel fucks us as well, as all of our buffs and special attacks are magic based dispellable buffs.
Yes, paladins are very good against certain classes, warriors in particular. We're often pretty good against rogues as well, though I've occasionally had some issues with rogues with a heavy stunlock spec. Competant priest, with even a modicum of points in shadow? We're dead, 95% of the time. Intelligent mages are likewise a problem, as are skilled Warlocks, especially if they've got a Felhunter out. A solo paladin lasting 2 minutes against a warrior or rogue solo attacking, I can believe. A paladin + hunter lasting 2 minutes against 3-4 horde, especially if one of them is a priest... Must have been some really shitty horde players.
-Arlos
BTW, speaking AS a paladin, I'd like to note that rumors of our indestructability are greatly exaggerated. Yes, we can go invulnerable to everything for a whole 12 seconds. Once every 5 minutes. Our other invuln is also on a 5 minute timer (3 min with max talents) but only works against melee, and is purgeable. Oh, and in the STAGGERINGLY AWESOME REVAMP (gee, sarcasm, I fucking hated most of the 1.9 changes, but that's another topic) we just got, we cannot use them back to back, any invuln now gives a 1 min debuff preventing the use of any other invuln.
You know how to get rid of paladins? Fear & mana burn. All of our offense (especially post-revamp) is based on mana, strip that and we're screwed. Odds of us having enough shadow resist to stop the casts is roughly nil. Purge/dispel fucks us as well, as all of our buffs and special attacks are magic based dispellable buffs.
Yes, paladins are very good against certain classes, warriors in particular. We're often pretty good against rogues as well, though I've occasionally had some issues with rogues with a heavy stunlock spec. Competant priest, with even a modicum of points in shadow? We're dead, 95% of the time. Intelligent mages are likewise a problem, as are skilled Warlocks, especially if they've got a Felhunter out. A solo paladin lasting 2 minutes against a warrior or rogue solo attacking, I can believe. A paladin + hunter lasting 2 minutes against 3-4 horde, especially if one of them is a priest... Must have been some really shitty horde players.
-Arlos
Susvain wrote:Tacks wrote:We only raid 3 nights a week, and it was back when you only had 1 hour windows to kill him, yes. Our problem was not from transitions at all. Our problem was a lack of dps or overagro. Had we been given Tranquil Totem back then we'd have gotten Vael down in a week or two. As it stands now, we would cosistantly kill Vael 20-30 seconds after the buff wore off. The DAY after the totem was put in we killed Vael in 2:30...something is wrong there and it's bullshit that alliance still try to say that they didn't have a huge advantage. And Vael wasn't even the worst, it's just an example that most people can relate to because I doubt most people here fought the drakes when they were immune to taunt...talk about autoattacking and pulling agro...
We do Chromaggus our 4th attempt ever our first day last week, today we wiped on flamegore x6. Fuck BWL.
what does that have to do with what i posted?
PS Arlos: I pretty much agree with what you said. I didn't say Paladins were indestructible but there is NO OTHER class out there able to withstand that kind of punishment and just annoy the opposition long enough for reinforcements to arrive. As for any "skill" arguements I welcome anyone to a fight next time test comes up:)
You take these GAMES a little too seriously. You take this from being a fun little game and it becomesa trekkie nerd arguing over which starship has the faster warp engines complete with intricate breakdowns of the schematics of them.
Christ...grats on paying to play a game that bothers you so much.
This is what it sounds like:
Now that I know you choose paper I clearly cannot choose rock. But since I know that you will now choose paper I can safely choose scissors to soundly best you. But I see that you are clever. You would know that I would choose scissors because you knew that I know you have the dispostion to choose paper. Therefore I clearly cannot choose scissors because you would counter with the rock.
Christ...grats on paying to play a game that bothers you so much.
This is what it sounds like:
Now that I know you choose paper I clearly cannot choose rock. But since I know that you will now choose paper I can safely choose scissors to soundly best you. But I see that you are clever. You would know that I would choose scissors because you knew that I know you have the dispostion to choose paper. Therefore I clearly cannot choose scissors because you would counter with the rock.
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