Can there be Middle Ground on Abortion?

[Diekan]

Oh, I'm a huge "fan" of the death penalty. 1st degree murder, rape, child molestation, major drug dealing... fry 'em.

[Spazz]

I can see the use of abortion for rape and incest vicitims, and I can see it being used to save the life of the mother if need be. But, other than that? No. You spread your legs to have a good time, you stuck your slong in her to get off - deal with it. You made the choice - you pay for it.

Thats the most genious idea ive heard diek. Where do you come up with such insight. Also what do you care if some HO you dont know ( whos prolly unfit to be a mother in the first place) Brings a child into the world or doesnt ? You gonna make sure its raised right ? Paid for whatever it needs ? Be a role model in its life ? I doubt it.

[Ouchyfish]

I agree with all of the above except for drug dealing. Drug dealers deserve the same rights as liquor store sales clerks and pharmacists, providing that they don't break any other laws.

[Spliffs]

A fetus before 20 weeks deserves the same rights as a plant. Sure it's alive, but it doesn't think. It doesn't feel. It doesn't give a fuck if its mom kills it, why do you?

Seriously - the only babies that should be born are the ones that are wanted.

This board constantly attacks the degenerates in life, and yet here you are trying to protect their right to be born? I mean seriously, a large portion of aborted children would become the people this board holds so much disdain for.

Hurray for abortion!

[Yamori]

My major beef with the anti-abortion movement is that of all the articles I've read (from the more fundamentalist christian side of it, which is the majority) I've never heard a single acknowledgement that the birth process is one of the most intensely painful experiences a human being can experience - not to mention the 9 month pregnancy process has dozens of major physical and mental problems.

There seems to be an unspoken attitude that birthing a child is on the same level as going to a doctor to have a mole removed, which is reinforced by their message that women who don't want to birth a child are irresponsible degenerates since they could 'just as easily' put it up for adoption.

[Ouchyfish]

the birth process is one of the most intensely painful experiences a human being can experience

I'm assuming that you are referring to the fetus' experience because the mothers these days feels jack shit. One word--epidural.

There seems to be an unspoken attitude that birthing a child is on the same level as going to a doctor to have a mole removed

See above.

[Lyion]

Sorry, fetuses are NOT viable at 16 weeks. Hell, they barely have a 2% survival rate at 22 weeks, and those that DO survive have significant chances of being screwed for life due to major medical conditions.

They have an almost 50% survival rate at 24 weeks. Anyways, viable is not as important as when it should be considered protected.

By any measure of what is human they are such. They think, feel pain, can move and are alive. It is why it's illegal past 10 weeks to get an Abortion in most of the world, including much of Europe.

At 28 weeks a fetus is 90%+ likely to live. Yet it is still legal to abort, without any discrimination at all. Is this right?

[JURIST] The US Second Circuit and Ninth Circuit Courts of Appeals ruled [2nd opinion, PDF; 9th opinion, PDF] in two separate decisions Tuesday that the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act [text, PDF] is unconstitutional because it does not provide an exception for the health of the mother. The Ninth Circuit struck down the law 3-0 and issued an injunction against its enforcement, while the Second Circuit decided not to issue an injunction following a 2-1 vote, instead soliciting further arguments on the case. Both opinions cited the 2006 US Supreme Court decision in Ayotte v. Planned Parenthood of Northern New England [text], decided earlier this month, though Ayotte involved a minor challenging a state abortion parental notification law. A similar Eighth Circuit ruling [JURIST report] was appealed to the Supreme Court [JURIST report] by the Bush administration last September, though certiorari has not yet been granted for that case. AP has more.

This post completely validated what I said earlier. They reference a child consent law as means of partial birth being unconstitutional because they did not like the wording which DOES provide a provisio for the mothers health.

They are also trying to say there is a constitutional right to abortion which is not the case. Both of these are liberal courts legislating what they want, that in fact has no basis in consitutional law.

Its a simple truth that some courts and their propoents want unfettered abortion without restrictions which is why this was struck down by the 9th, which is widely known as the most liberal group of judges out there.

Trying to say partial birth abortion isn't a big deal because there aren't that many babies killed isn't accurate. There are around 4000 partial birth abortions done per year. Almost none of them are for the womans health. So, what we have is the courts ruling that it is legal to kill these viable babies due to a mothers right to choose, and rarely based on her health, despite the fact if they didn't cave in their skulls they would be survive.

Partial Birth Abortion is a child being killed almost always for a matter of convenience. Most people are against. The ban is not unconstitutional, and I look forward to it being torpedoed by SCOTUS this year.

[Minrott]

I don't understand why abortion is such a viable option when adoption is so practical. Just because you're a lowlife and have no business raising a child doesn't mean there aren't thousands of people out there who do.

Then again, maybe I don't want your genes being reproduced. Abort away.

[Spazz]

Yea just carry it for 9 months give birth to it and give it away no big deal .

[Harrison]

Yeah, just kill the baby, no big deal.

[Spazz]

I dont even know as dudes how any of us have a right to say anything bout it either way if i really think about it. How many adopted kids you got Harrison ? Diekan ? If your not raising one of these unwanted kids that "had the right to live" then your fulla shit.

[Spliffs]

Yeah, just kill the blood and tissue, no big deal.

Fixt

[numatu]

The Partial Ban includes the exception if the mother's life is in danger. The reason it does not include "health", is because "health" is a broad, generalized, and gaping hole making the entire law pointless. Anything can be cited as a "health" reason, circumventing the ban. Pro-lifers know this, and do not include it in the bill. Pro-choicers know this, and demand that it be put in.

[mofish]

I think if pro-lifers could agree to the only restriction being late-term abortions, we could easily reach a compromise. Most pro-choicers, including myself, that I know all think banning late-term would be ok. The problem is the sides are SO polarized. The pro choicers think if they give an inch, that it will just open the door for an eventual total ban. I cant blame them, seeing as how fanatical the pro-lifers are.

Do you really think the pro-lifers would say 'OK, we will agree to a compromise and keep it legal for early term.'

[Ouchyfish]

I dont even know as dudes how any of us have a right to say anything bout it either way if i really think about it. How many adopted kids you got Harrison ? Diekan ? If your not raising one of these unwanted kids that "had the right to live" then your fulla shit.

She may be the factory but it's half of my materials in the mix.

You can't fuck the guy over monetarily for child support if you aren't going to give him equal protection when the door swings the other way.

[Lyion]

I think if pro-lifers could agree to the only restriction being late-term abortions, we could easily reach a compromise. Most pro-choicers, including myself, that I know all think banning late-term would be ok. The problem is the sides are SO polarized. The pro choicers think if they give an inch, that it will just open the door for an eventual total ban. I cant blame them, seeing as how fanatical the pro-lifers are.

Do you really think the pro-lifers would say 'OK, we will agree to a compromise and keep it legal for early term.'

Most people are moderate and are ok with Abortion. Most people also are against partial birth or any second or third trimester abortions. Fringe elements aside, the problem remains the courts who keep treating abortion as a constitutional right.

That is the crux of this arguement. Is there middle ground for the moderates.

[Agrajag]

She may be the factory but it's half of my materials in the mix.

You can't fuck the guy over monetarily for child support if you aren't going to give him equal protection when the door swings the other way.

I have to agree with this. Fathers have absolutely no rights in the decision of whether an abortion should be done or not. If a woman gets pregnant there should be TWO people making the decision. If either one decides that they want the baby, that person should be completely responsible for the raising of the child with no rights to the parent that didn't want the child.

I would be willing to bet that would be the solution to a lot of the single mothers out there trying to bag a husband by getting pregnant...

[Harrison]

I dont even know as dudes how any of us have a right to say anything bout it either way if i really think about it. How many adopted kids you got Harrison ? Diekan ? If your not raising one of these unwanted kids that "had the right to live" then your fulla shit.

You come back with irrelevent arguments so poorly constructed it makes me wonder if you even know what it is we're talking about.

You don't have to raise an adopted child to have a say in this. You don't have to have a vagina either. Although that latter fact certainly doesn't hurt your position.

[dammuzis]

the big lie about partial birth abortion is the "the womans life is in danger"
this is a complete falshood
partial birth abortions are performed when a breach birth (most dangerous way a baby can be born, ask any farmer) is induced and with only part of the babies head in the womb the brain is sucked out

http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/pba/PBA_Im ... _Place.htm

in most "enlightened" european countries you must get 2 doctors to agree that abortion is medically necessary in order to get one, and even then it has to be in first trimester

[Yamori]

I'm all for fathers having more representation in the issue of actual children, but I think it's kind of silly to give them part of the 'say' on equal terms with or over the woman on whether or not they can have an abortion.

The man's minimal part of the process is busting a nut, while the woman's minimal part of the process is going through 9 months of physical/psychological/biological crap and a potentially extremely painful experience... as well as risk afterwards for medical complications, post partum depression, ect. Even in cases where the man is more involved, it's still very disproportionate.

If a woman wants an abortion, there really isn't much of an argument to say that the father should have a say in it - as it is giving him arbitrary say over whether she suffers considerably and goes through medical procedures or not - which is NOT a power that should be given to men with loose ties to the woman. The only time a person should have the ability to make medical decisions on behalf of another is if someone is deemed incompetent and they have been appointed a guardian.

If a woman wants to birth the child, and the man wants her to have an abortion, that is a different case --- while the man shouldn't have a say in whether the woman has an abortion or not (again, because the woman is the one going through the actual process, medical procedures, and risks), I think they should definitely be given more legal representation and less fiscal responsibility in such cases.

Women shouldn't have as much legal leverage over unwilling fathers imo - If they *choose* to have the child against the father's wishes, with intentions to solely raise the child and keep it seperated from the father, they should be willing to bear the brunt of the burden and not expect much in terms of fiscal support.

[Agrajag]

The man's minimal part of the process is busting a nut

That is the truth. But the point is that it is BOTH the man and the woman's responsibility. Correct? The woman is just as at fault for an unwanted birth as the man that "busted his nut." For the most part, she probably just layed there during the process.

the woman's minimal part of the process is going through 9 months of physical/psychological/biological crap and a potentially extremely painful experience

You forgot the fact that a man has to go through the entire 9 months of the pregnancy, also. All that bitching and moaning we have to put up with can be just as bad as the physical pain the woman supposedly goes through. I have gone through the whole pregnancy thing with my ex wife. It wasn't all flowers and parties for me. Everything she wanted I had to get. I even had to demean myself to women's work (laundry, cooking and cleaning) so that I wouldn't have to listen to her complain that her back hurt when she scooped the litter box!

All in all, I think that since it was both parties that were irresponsible enough to create this life, it should be both parties that have the decision of abortion. Not just one person because she might have to go through a little pain. Hell, it might teach her to not be so much of a whore the next time!

[Captain Insano]

i believe in abortion. It means less screaming children on airplanes i'm forced to throw with extreme force into one of the overhead compartments.

[Yamori]

All in all, I think that since it was both parties that were irresponsible enough to create this life, it should be both parties that have the decision of abortion. Not just one person because she might have to go through a little pain. Hell, it might teach her to not be so much of a whore the next time!

Undoubtedly depending on the relationship the man can and will go through tons of crap... but the fact is the physical process is solely the woman's burden - and romantic partners (usually not married couples if you're talking about abortion) should not have medical decision-making powers over eachother - the only case where it is (and should) be feasible to make medical decisions for an adult is if they are incompetent and have a legal guardian, or they aren't concious and need emergency decisions.

Women should not have to get 'permission' from someone who may have no significant ties to them in order to get an operation - let alone an operation that will likely drastically negatively impact their lives for 19 years if they don't get it, it's just nuts and would lead to nothing but trouble - it just begs to instigate 'control' issues and plain stupidity from the more ignorant and crazy people out there.

[mofish]

What they need to do is perfect a procedure where the fetus is taken out of the pregnant woman and put into the father's body so he can carry it to term.

[Jesus]

Children are parasites, starting from the embryonic level until you kick them out of the house.