*sigh*

[Donnel]

Is this the part where I'm supposed to feel "put in my place"?

[Tacks]

No, this is the part where you stfu and come to the realization that your opinions mean jack shit when you haven't played against anyone but noobs.

[Tacks]

Actually if I recall correctly your first character was a paladin?


A paladin to a hunter? Ok I don't even need to know any more.

[Donnel]

So anyone who rerolls and levels is a noob?

Actually I have characters of all classes that I play on a regular basis. My favorite was the paladin so far, but I'm playing horde now with my friends.

[Lueyen]

Lue, you know I respect you bud so don't think I'm disagreeing with you because I don't like ya.

Lol, I know this, and I would hope that you know by now that the feeling is mutual. If I didn't respect you and felt it not worth my time to argue with you.... well I'd probably just do something like call you an idiot and move on.

What other class can be shut down by just moving close to them? Is a mage less effective when you stand next to them? Arguably yes, because you can interrupt their spells, but less so since a Frost Nova and Blink will take care of that problem.

Yes, but in one form or another all classes deal with "dead zones" to some extent. Mages deal with long cast times on thier extended range spells, and a shorter one on thier instant spells. The trade off for the lack of dead zone tends to be either a long interuptable cast time or a lenghty cooldown (and of course the use of mana, of course there are wands, but in most cases like the damage from your pet the damage tends to be neglibable). Yes you have a dead zone for your primary attack mode... I assure you that as a rogue my deadzone for my primary mode of attack is much larger then yours as a hunter. As far as the deadzone between which you can not hit via melee or ranged attacks, unless I'm mistaken there is no difference in size of it for warriors, rogues, or hunters.

You say that rock-paper-scissors is a fallacy but I disagree strongly. You know who a hunters scissors is? Paladins and Warlocks. We have no counter to fear, we have no fear of our own except on other hunters pets or feral druids, we get completely trounced by warlocks 1v1 because they don't have to stay far away to dot and nuke. Paladins proactively negate our one major advantage, snare + kite. Blessing of Freedom is more a hunter killer then any other paladin ability.

Citing one of the two faction specific classes as your rock is somewhat of a stretch when discussing rock/paper/scissors balance, because they affect half the equation. Because you only have to deal with each on one side of the fence or the other they do, and should deviate from rock/paper/scissors. Specifically with paladins thier survivability makes them difficult for most classes. I have yet to see someone say they are the rock to paladins, and I can say the same for shaman. As far as warlocks go, you have cited what I consider to be the most powerful class in the game as your rock, they are the rock to so many classes, and again I don't think any class sees them as paper, I don't know maybe priests or druids?

And armor does mitigate our damage same as any other physical attack. I know that doesn't mean much to a rogue since your armor isn't what makes you shine, but did you ever think that that was part of why we can win against rogues more often then not?

Flare, Mark, track, pets continuing to target and attack us after popping vanish, wingclip negating our 5 min cooldown speed increase, all aside, it's not so much armor (although since we have after self buffs on average the lowest armor value in the game it's definetly part of it) but the fact that hunter shots completely ignore our primary defense. Dodge is our primary defense, much of our higher end gear is + dodge, our best stat option is agility, in part becuase it gives us better dodge.. dodge is our bread and butter defense, and hunter attacks completely ignore that.
I mean really, even with the idea of rock/paper/scissors just how much advantage should one class have over another? To the point that a poorly skilled person in inferior gear still has a very good chance to kill us?

All I am saying is, let's not call an apple an orange here. You don't like the move? Okay. You think it's cheap? No problem. Let's not cross over the line here and call it an exploit which it very clearly is not. There is no abuse of the game mechanics involved. You must be out of combat to drop a trap, FD drops you out of combat. Easy enough.

If that's an abuse of game mechanics then getting into our deadzone should be an exploit as well.

I never called it an exploit, I do think that the effectiveness, frequency, speed, and for the most part lack of a counter or ability to avoid it makes it not only cheap but overpowered and out of balance. Making a comparison to that and use of the deadzone is comparing apples and oranges to the extent that one is used to avoid attack while the other is used to set one up, which is why I argued that removal or restricting fd/trap did not justify removal of the dead zone.

As a side note I did not realize that you were talking from the perspective of pre 60 pvp. I bring this up not as some trump card saying it nullifies all of your arguments, but do realize that post 60 pvp game changes significantly. Honestly I feel that in general rogues previous to the 60 game are overpowered, and so I see some of your views in a different light. In discussing pre 60 and post 60 we are talking apples and oranges.

[Arlos]

Speaking as a paladin who PVPs a lot, I can say with some reasonable authority that the classes that counter the paladin 1 on 1 are the pure-caster classes, but especially priests. I'll go over them 1 by 1.

1) Priest. Our worst matchup. Oddly enough, we have more problems with priests that are NOT in shadow form than with ones that are. There's 1 priest I know who I can never even come close to beating. He's got hundreds of points of +healing, and just keeps renew up on himself. Paladin DPS output is low enough that just with renew he can mostly keep up with the damage I do (and I am VERY well geared), and at the same time he's doing serious damage to me with mana burn, and depleting me down to nothing, while making sure I don't get any useful buffs up.

I can win against very poorly geared or poolry skilled priests. Well-geared, talented priests... forget it.

2) Mages. Especially if they have arcane power and the +dps charms. Blink completely negates my stun, unless he's stupid. All of my spells are in the same school, so if he counterspells, I'm fucked, as the time I'm silenced is more than long enough for him to finish me off. (frost nova, blink, Arcape Power, Presence of Mind, nuke, nuke, nuke, splat). So, effectively, I can only et heals off while I'm bubbled, so I get to get back to full once, ever. Plus, if I'm ever beating him, he can just sheep, and I get to spend 30 seconds wandering around doing nothing. I can beat some mages, sometimes, but kinda like priests, ifthey're skilled and well-geared, I'm most likely dead.

3) Warlocks. Specifically, warlocks that're using Felhunters, especially if they have teh fast-summon talent. The Felhunter is increidbly annoying for a paladin. First, it'll cure any debuffs, including our stun, that we hit the warlock with. Second, it can silene us if it's meleing us while it casts. 3) It can dispel any buffs we've put on ourselves. On top of that it does pretty damn good dps, especially when backed up with fear, dots, death coil, etc. Warlocks with imps worry me not at all, and ones with Succubi mostly don't worry me. With the Felhunter 'locks, I can sometimes win if their DPS isn't quite high enough to finish me off while I kill off the felhunter, then heal, and chase the lone warlock down. Of course, if he has the fast summon talent, he'll laugh at me killing the 'hunter first, as he can just summon the new one righta fter, and I'm toast.

Shamen & Druids are the next step down, difficulty wise. I have run into some druids that are really problematic at times, and fights with them take about 9 years to finish. Shamen, it's a question of who can make who run out of mana first.

Against warriors and rogues, I simply don't lose, especially if I'm willing to pop my invuln bubble. If I voluntairly forego that, I have run into a couple warriors and rogues who can beat me, barely, but they're running around with Ashkandis, etc. Even then, we're talking about 1/10 of 1% of the population, and even those only beat me once out of 3 times, max. Part of the reason for my success rate is the fact I'm running around with a Thunderfury, and with a frequent-proc 20% melee slow, that slows their DPS dramatically.

-Arlos

[Donnel]

Arlos,

Reck Bomb ftw. You won't lose to rogues or warriors ever.

[Lueyen]

Is this the part where I'm supposed to feel "put in my place"?

<Drum Roll>






you know it just never gets old for me >:-)

[Arlos]

Donnel: I have reckoning.

Only rogues who ever beat me are ones with top-top end gear (all bloodfang, + equivalent weapons) that is fully specialized in stunlock, and the only warriors are those likewise in all tier-2 with stuff like Ashkandi, and are PVP specced. In both cases, if I am willing to pop either Blessing of Protection or Divine shield, I won't lose. Period.

Taxx, if you want to try me, just let me know when/where this weekend when I have a real internet connection again (long story) and I'll get myself copied to test and you can have a go.

-Arlos

[Harrison]

E-peen swinging contest on Test

[Donnel]

<3 Reckoning.

[Insanityfair]

Is this the part where I'm supposed to feel "put in my place"?

<Drum Roll>






you know it just never gets old for me >:-)

I always forget about that...

[Tacks]

There's no way I can beat a reckoning paladin dueling. Blizz said they're the easiest class to play for a reason:)

I skipped all bloodfang in order to save dkp for DD and since our raid group is basically dying I haven't gotten loot in a while. I also haven't been pvp spec in months, you win.

[Arlos]

Hrm, I don't get the whole egg timer thing

-Arlos

[Donnel]

inside joke between insan, lue and me.