Jesus.......yay another religious thread!

[Thon]

Does Jesus's sacrifice seem kind of half assed to anyone else? dunno if anyone else asked this, but it's been bugging me. i mean he's the son of god, maybe god himself. and he gets nailed to a cross to take the whole world's sins on his back.

if he's really omniscient he would've known what was gonna happen, so it's suicide to follow the path that leads to his death.

and since he's god, he knows he's going to heaven when he dies. if i knew heaven existed and i was going there upon my death, i'd go play in traffic right now.

[kaharthemad]

not so much as suicide in my book matyrdom is a better term. To know your fate and to know that if you change it you will live but others will die is not suicide.

[Thon]

i see your point, but this is a special case. he knows everything. from every deviant sexual thought that ever raced across your mind, to next year's powerball #'s.

martyrdom is still suicide though, and suicide is a sin. btw is martyrdom OK'd in the Bible anywhere? serious question

edit - not all martyrdom is suicide, but i'd say this qualifies

[Griever]

Was Jesus really omniscient? I know he was the son of God but he was still mortal. He was able to perform some miracles but I don't think he had the power to "see all". He lived as a flesh and blood mortal on Earth and had to go through the path that his Father laid out for him. That path just so happened to lead Jesus through times of extreme hardship and pain. Perhaps God was testing Jesus' faith, therefore, setting the example for all of mankind.

I don't know. I'm not extremely well versed in religion but thats my take on it.

[Sithos]

Jesus was the son of God. Jesus liked us humans. God didn't. In order to save humans Jesus made the ultimate sacrafice. Hell even when he was on the cross he aked God if there was any other way.

Grats us (some of us) who worship a God who floods the world (cuz we dont worship him) asks people to sacrafice their children and all sorts of lovely crap like that. And who tells his son the only way to save mankind is to get nailed to a board and hang there for a few days.

[kaharthemad]

ok for starts Martyrdom is approved in the bible. Otherwise Joan of Arc would never have had such a flaming personality later on.

Martyrdom is listed as one of the 'Spiritual Gifts' according to St. Paul. Others include Discernment, Exorcism, Healing, Leadership, service, prophecy, Tongues, etc.


When you look at the whole of it..in a Christian stand point Thon, Did Christ know what was going to happen...He most likely knew that his death was eminent however I also dont think he knew how. It could have been just as easily been death by hanging...drawn and quartered, flogged, stoned (not from pot...relax people), etc etc.


He knew what his death meant and went to it. To do otherwise would have been damnation of people past present and future.

[Thon]

Jesus is part of the holy trinity, the father, son, and holy ghost. he's more than man, at least according to most christian dogma AFAIK. it was one of the big issues hammered out in the first council that decided what christianity was all about. some thought jesus was of god, and the others thought he was a man. the god-like crowd won out, since walking on water, curing leprosy, the immaculate conception, and all that other good stuff isn't something your average Joe Firstcentury could do.

i've never actually read the passage, but i'm pretty sure at the last supper he said one of his disciples would betray him. sounds like he knew what was going to happen. although i'm quoting History of the World: Part 1

so even if jesus got run over by a chariot in a busy street it would still be suicide since he knew it was going to happen. maybe that's how he got sent to hell, and rescued all the souls down there. since you can't exactly knock on the gate of hell and ask to be let in

edit - as for Martyrdom, can you quote a passage in the bible that says its ok? i'm not saying dieing in the service of God is suicide, even if you take on a thousand soldiers by yourself you can't foresee what will happen. but if you know all and see all, and end up dieing of anything other than "natural causes", it's suicide. Joan of Arc wasn't in the bible, she thought God spoke to her. sounds like schizophrenia to me

[mofish]

Death Cult.

The religion starts with the murder of God.

Then its time to wait until the death of the world.

And, of course it makes no rational sense.

God killed himself, in order to save himself from his own wrath at his own creations? Rightt.

[kaharthemad]

yeah let me dig up a passage. I believe it was Paul's first letter to Corrinthians. Ill look for it.

MARTYRDOM: to give over one’s life to suffer or to be put to death for the cause

1st Cor 13:3
3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,[b] but have not love, I gain nothing.

in this passage it talks about helping the poor and suffering as well as martyrdom.

[kaharthemad]

Mo if you dont mind we dont need your negative trolling. thon is asking valid questions, and we are trying to have a rational debate here. Something judging by all your posts on the board you can't do.

[Agrajag]

Mo if you dont mind we dont need your negative trolling. thon is asking valid questions, and we are trying to have a rational debate here. Something judging by all your posts on the board you can't do.

Is that why Mindia hasn't posted yet?

[mofish]

Mo if you dont mind we dont need your negative trolling. thon is asking valid questions, and we are trying to have a rational debate here. Something judging by all your posts on the board you can't do.

cry some more?

[Minrott]

The whole thing that makes Jesus' sacrifice "worthy" is that he didn't know he'd go to heaven afterwards. In fact, he even went to hell for 3 days. He was pretty sure God wasn't too cool with the idea and wouldn't forgive him.

[kaharthemad]

ignoring the Motroll two posts above me, Thon if you have any questions I am more than happy to chat with you on them in a IM. As far as my faith goes, not sure I would be considered a Christian in literal but I still have more than a few years of Christian schooling as well as a few months of seminary schooling under my belt.

[kaharthemad]

problem is the whole terminaolgy on that Min was if you read from version to version...some theologians seem to think he went to hell for those three days to free those faithful imprisoned. Others believe that he went there for those three days to serve a pennance for those living there. Sort of a exchange program.


there are alot of debates on this from denomination to denomination.

[Minrott]

Yeah I know. I don't really care about them either. I think the whole thing is crap.

[Narrock]

Does Jesus's sacrifice seem kind of half assed to anyone else? dunno if anyone else asked this, but it's been bugging me. i mean he's the son of god, maybe god himself. and he gets nailed to a cross to take the whole world's sins on his back.

if he's really omniscient he would've known what was gonna happen, so it's suicide to follow the path that leads to his death.

and since he's god, he knows he's going to heaven when he dies. if i knew heaven existed and i was going there upon my death, i'd go play in traffic right now.

There are a lot of questions and subjects for discussion in this thread, so I'm going to start with the original post by Thon. No, I don't think that Jesus' sacrifice was "half-assed" at all. To me, it was the ultimate sacrifice in the name of love... Jesus' love for people. He did know what was going to happen. He knew what the path was that was laid out for Him by the Father. Jesus knew He was going to be beaten, flogged, publicly ridiculed, and crucified. That's why, in the garden of Gethsemane, He was sweating blood thinking about it, and then asked the Father, "Father, if there is any way... please let this cup pass from me."

It wasn't suicide, because God (the Father) laid out Jesus' path for Him, and he willingly went along with the program, although He wasn't happy about it. If a death row inmate, who knows he's about to be executed in 1 hour (for example), goes with the guards (without struggle and with full cooperation) over to the electric chair... knowing he's about to die, is he committing suicide because he didn't try to fight his way out of the situation or at least put up a struggle? Um... no.

[Tikker]

The whole thing that makes Jesus' sacrifice "worthy" is that he didn't know he'd go to heaven afterwards. In fact, he even went to hell for 3 days. He was pretty sure God wasn't too cool with the idea and wouldn't forgive him.

well
word on the street is that christians believe god = jesus and vice versa, so he probably had a good idea of what was coming

[Minrott]

My point is that when he was on earth, he was human. When he got stoned and speared, he felt it. He knew that was coming and took it like a man. If that's not sacrifice, I don't know what is.

[Jay]

If this guy is so special and powerful and all knowing then why is he cleaning D. Duck's house and accidentally watching him wank it?

[kaharthemad]

wrong jesus I think

[Phlegm]

If this guy is so special and powerful and all knowing then why is he cleaning D. Duck's house and accidentally watching him wank it?

Because he can.

[vonkaar]

Not all Christians believe in the Trinity. The main passage that suggests it wasn't even in the Bible til the 9th century - it's a Spanish invention.

[Yamori]

Doesn't having his only son tortured and murdered as a prerequisite for opening up the gates of heaven to mankind seem kind of pointless and cruel? :p


Man this god guy sounds like a dick

I would so NOT buy him a beer and play mortal kombat with him.

[Narrock]

Not all Christians believe in the Trinity. The main passage that suggests it wasn't even in the Bible til the 9th century - it's a Spanish invention.

And I'm not saying that to be a jerkass. I'm saying it because the Holy Spirit was present at that time, and the disciples knew it because they were inspired by the holy spirit. They also knew that Jesus often referred to God as "The Father," and that the "Father" was present in the holy spirit. They also knew that Jesus was in the Father, and the Father in Him. That is a trinitarian viewpoint right there. I don't see how the holy trinity could possibly be a 9th century Spanish claim or invention when the holy trinity concept was around during Jesus' time, and continued on after His death on the cross.

*edited to add this*

I don't see how any Christian can claim to be a "Christian" if he/she does not believe in the Holy Trinity.