NSA building massive database of phone records

[Lyion]

nowhere in the Constitution does it mention the right to concealed carry, and that's something I do not support.

So you dont think people have the right to defend themselves arlos ?

What a shame to lose the Osama Spazz seal of approval.

For the record, I'm for repealing the second amendment, as well as against any and all concealed weapons permit.

A gun is an offensive weapon, not a defensive one.

[Jay]

Republican mindframe, democratic gun stance...interesting.

[Tuggan]

and he calls himself a libertarian too i believe, which is even funnier.

[Lyion]

No, I'm libertarian in some instances, but I most certainly do not subscribe to anywhere near all of their policies.

I have my own beliefs. They haven't changed and are consistent, I think. If you read through my posts from day one, you'll see I give the same answers to the big policy questions.

I'm against the Death Penalty.
I'm Pro Life
I'm for gun control, I always have been
I'm for social entitlements and helping people out. I'm against pork, wasted government entitlement programs, though.
I'm a Hawk on defense
I'm for smaller government, less taxes, regulation, and spending

I like a lot of things libertarian, but I'm not a pure one. I never claimed to be.

Libertarianism is a political philosophy advocating that individuals should be free to do whatever they wish with their person or property, as long as they do not infringe on the same liberty of others.

[Eziekial]

I don't know how to respond to your post Lyion. You figuratively posted you want your cake and to eat it too. :ugh:

[Eziekial]

As for Arlos's posts. The more a government is allowed to collect information on it's citizens, the more control it has over them. You get all in a tiff over a simple data mining program yet post about needing to register and "control" gun ownership. You want social programs including health care which basically opens your medical history to the very government that has been spying on you for the last 50 years. It's mind boggling. Do you honestly believe that the NSA is just a fluke? That this program is just the brainchild of Bush or one of his cronies? You really believe that ANYTHING and I mean ANYTHING that our government does is just a few people getting together and saying, "lets do this cause we want to!"???
It's a system, a bureacracy. It's a bunch of code, endless reports created by thousands of clerks and middle management walking around poorly designed office complexes around our nations capital collecting a paycheck and pushing paper. Everything in our government runs that way. The people you want to help, the homeless, the indigent, the less fortunate. Do you know how they got by before FDR started all those programs? How did we as a nation survive such a dark era? To read your posts, it sounds like our streets where filled with sick, homeless, starving babies 80 years ago. Those stories of the "roaring twenties" must have been just a distraction to keep people from jumping out the basemen window. It must have been, since we just had a tiny fraction of the government we have now and prolific amount of gun ownership. The wild, wild west in downtown NY.
So how did the poor, the sick and the injured survive that dark era in our recent history? Gee, let me think about that. Since it's obvious that we've always had the poor, the tired, and the homeless hell, we our country was built by those type of people (I think something like that may even be written somewhere on that statue the French gave us), there must have been some other way that need was filled. Oh, maybe we relied more on each other? Our communities, our churches, our friends. But you don't want to go back to that do you? That would be terrible, to admit that such a barbaric institution such as a church would be the safety net of a nation of "enlightened".
As far as gun ownership, if you need to get permission to have something, it's not a right anymore, it's a privledge. And a privledge can be revoked.

[dammuzis]

the whole reason for the 2nd amendment (heck the whole consittution) was so that the people had more power then the government and could overthrow said government by military means if necessary

[Gidan]

the whole reason for the 2nd amendment (heck the whole consittution) was so that the people had more power then the government and could overthrow said government by military means if necessary

In other words, the 2nd amendment is meaningless now.

[Lyion]

I don't know how to respond to your post Lyion. You figuratively posted you want your cake and to eat it too.

I'd hope everyone would want their cake and to eat it too. It may not be realistic. It's a goal of society doing as much as it can for its people and preventing evil, but being wise and promoting individual freedom.

However, I'd be interested to hear your opinions on what positions of mine you disagree with. They are all pretty straight forward, and to me common sense and not contradictory.

[Eziekial]

You are for gun control and entitlement spending but want a smaller government without pork. Everyone wants a small government without pork and entitlement spending. It's a pipedream. Call me a cynic, but I feel a government is not the answer. Find charity elsewhere, because giving someone health care, welfare or a pension by taking it from another is not charity. That's playing Robin Hood, and last I checked, we are not in Nottingham Forest.
Is it a noble goal? Of course, I help out the needy all the time. I donate my time to Habitate for Humanity, I donate my money to Red Cross and I donate my blood. If you sum all that up, I GAVE more than the government TOOK from me. Why? Because I used every loophole, exemption, exception, and credit I could possibly think of. I believe my life, my work and the fruits of them belong to me and no one else. I choose what to do or not do with it and to hell with the rest of you. You know what drives me to be "good" and "giving"? The possiblity that this world may be just short interlude to something greater, bigger, and beyond our current understanding. It's spiritual and it freaks liberal enlightened pansies out. They want to wash religion off the face of the world. They see it as a device conceived by men to control mankind. It's a vice of the weak minded to them. So what's to keep people "good" and "giving" in it's place? An IRS agent with a gun. Because that is sooo enlightened. I have faith in man. Not men, because we become pack animals when hearded together (like our major cities). But individually, we are "good" and we take care of each other. Rural towns don't lock their doors and everyone is welcome. I learned that while in Lafayette, LA. People are much better, much smarter than our elected officials make them out to be.
That's what I believe. You are free to push on the pull door all you want.

[Minrott]

Most 9mm won't travel through walls. (that's why swat uses the 9mm MP5 in hostage situations)

22 has a higher muzzle velocity than a 9mm

C'mon this is crap. 9x19's will pass right through a 4" interior wall sheathed in 1/2" sheet rock. It'll pass right through a 6" exterior wall sheathed in 5/8" sheet rock, 3/4" exterior OSB, Vinyl Siding and insulation.

While a hyper velocity .22 Long Rifle out of an 18" barrel may have more muzzle velocity than a low power 9x19 out of a 3" barrel, that in no way translates to penetration. Velocity is only half of the equation, i.e. mass x velocity = inertia. .22 bullets weigh in at a standard 40 grains. 9x19's go all the way up over 140.

This kind of stuff aggravates me. I need to start a new thread.

[Lyion]

You are for gun control and entitlement spending but want a smaller government without pork.

A very, very small amount of our government dinero goes to really helping the poor or unfortunate people.

We spend more cash helping retired wealthy old people than the poor, mainly due to the AARP lobbyists. Entitlements are a pittance of our government

Gun control is a completely different issue. Many countries have gun control.

Everyone wants a small government without pork and entitlement spending. It's a pipedream. Call me a cynic, but I feel a government is not the answer. Find charity elsewhere, because giving someone health care, welfare or a pension by taking it from another is not charity. That's playing Robin Hood, and last I checked, we are not in Nottingham Forest.

Someone on their last leg should be helped by the government and not have to rely on potential help from charity. That isn't Robin Hood. That is what government should be for.

I have faith in man. Not men, because we become pack animals when hearded together (like our major cities). But individually, we are "good" and we take care of each other. Rural towns don't lock their doors and everyone is welcome. I learned that while in Lafayette, LA. People are much better, much smarter than our elected officials make them out to be.
That's what I believe. You are free to push on the pull door all you want.

Except what you are saying is contradictory. You don't believe men as a collective are good, but you want the unfortunate to be helped by charity, versus guaranteed being taken care of.

I'm sorry, given our economic strength and the rather small amount currently given to real entitlements, I want the opposite.

[Eziekial]

You so far off the mark it's not even funny. Where do you get the notion that entitlement spending are a pittance? Hold on, I'll fix your wagon.

[Eziekial]

http://encarta.msn.com/media_461566684/ ... nding.html

There. I only wish I had the skilz to post it directly to save you the trouble of clicking on the link.

Social security, Health, Welfare and Medicare = 58.5% of the budget. What's the budget you ask? Try 2.47 TRILLION dollars. Or $2,470,000,000,000.00

So your pittance is only $1.44 Trillion or $1,440,000,000,000.00

Just how many homeless are there in this country? Unicef put the figure at 750,000 in the US in 1998. Just for arguements sake, lets say that figure has grown 20% over the last 8 years (ridiculous I know but bear with me) So now we have 900,000 homeless. If you buy someone a home, then they are no longer homeless right? So lets just start a program that does just that. The medien cost of a 3/2 in America is what? $250,000? Now we can give these people a FREE 1/4 of a million dollar house and it only costs us $225 billion. I still have $1.215 Trillion left and we've solved homeless in America in a single blow.

How's that for fixing your wagon! Pittance indeed.























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[Lyion]

http://encarta.msn.com/media_461566684/U_S_Government_Spending.html

There. I only wish I had the skilz to post it directly to save you the trouble of clicking on the link.

Social security, Health, Welfare and Medicare = 58.5% of the budget. What's the budget you ask? Try 2.47 TRILLION dollars. Or $2,470,000,000,000.00

So your pittance is only $1.44 Trillion or $1,440,000,000,000.00

Just how many homeless are there in this country? Unicef put the figure at 750,000 in the US in 1998. Just for arguements sake, lets say that figure has grown 20% over the last 8 years (ridiculous I know but bear with me) So now we have 900,000 homeless. If you buy someone a home, then they are no longer homeless right? So lets just start a program that does just that. The medien cost of a 3/2 in America is what? $250,000? Now we can give these people a FREE 1/4 of a million dollar house and it only costs us $225 billion. I still have $1.215 Trillion left and we've solved homeless in America in a single blow.

How's that for fixing your wagon! Pittance indeed.

This chart shows proportions of combined federal, state, and local government expenditures on various national welfare programs in the United States


Social Security is a different beast from helping the poor and unfortunate. Its a broken system kept inplace by lobbying and fear mongering.

Likewise, break down how much medicare versus prescription drugs for seniors, many very well off, as well as abuse, as well as other free dollars to rich senior citizens, and it'd take another big chunk

The senior citizen bloc is the most powerful lobby in the country, and it's really disgusting that they feed off the middle class and poor, where many of them do not need to.

We spend less than 20 cents on each dollar the government earns on entitlement programs. That includes a lot of pork and bullshit going to people who do not need it, a la the Old bastard lobby groups.

Compare that with 58 cents per dollar on government infrastructure, law enforcement, and military and I'd say there is an assload of room for improvement in lowering the size of government, and still being able to provide help to those in need.

[Eziekial]

Can you site a source for those statements is that just your opinion?

[Lyion]

Those figures are from the CBO. They are not an addition of local, state, and Federal expendetitures like yours above which is very inaccurate, as it takes many other things into account.

[Eziekial]

I just lost my post. I'm throwing in the towel. I just don't have the heart to shed your position Lyion. It's a pity really. The gist of it was that you admit the fox is guarding the hen house. Where we differ, is in our approach of "fixing" the problems. You see some redemption or reform, I see it as a complete overhaul.

[Lyion]

Actually, I don't think we're probably far apart on a lot of issues, except Gun Control.

I'm certainly not proposing we become a welfare state, but for those who REALLY need it, I want aid available, that's alll.

I most certainly want smaller government. Much smaller. What does anger me is the large amount of cash wasted on corporate welfare, while we continue to cut the bottom end of the system, for the people who really need it, out.

[brinstar]

buuuuump

this was a fun read ^_^

[Drem]

shit, we knew about the NSA years ago

[brinstar]

best lines:

I don't know about the rest of you, but sticking to a shitload of guidelines written over 200 years ago when pertaining to current events is a bit...ridiculous.

how long ago was the 2nd amendment written?

Is listening to phone calls actually unconstitutional?

yes, without a warrant it is. that's why wiretapping evidence(or any evidence) gets thrown out at trial if it's acquired without a warrant. jesus, watch Law & Order

gathering insight on our nonfictional legal system via fictional television shows isn't a terribly great habit but it nevertheless makes for a nice burn

People who are against government phone line surveillance are being extremely selfish, and are failing to see the big picture. Stop trying to play your "rights" card. The computer systems that monitor the phone lines only start recording when key words are spoken. If you have nothing to hide then just ignore the fact that you may be recorded from time to time. It really is no big deal, and you are making a mountain out of a mole hill. We need this kind of monitoring for national security. Please use your noggins. Leftists really are setting up America for total collapse.

--------8< snip snip 8<--------

You're being extremely selfish. If you don't have anything to hide, then don't worry about it. I bet you're also against schools performing random checks of students' lockers for guns and drugs too. You people who constantly whine about your rights are going to be the demise of America. Your "rights" are miniscule in comparison to national security. I hope the government continues on with what they're doing now and just ignoring the "rights" whiners. Look at the BIG picture holmes. The comparison to nazi Germany is completely outrageous.

--------8< snip snip 8<--------

In the name of National Security is the "warrant." Just think of it that way and you'll be fine.

--------8< snip snip 8<--------

The government should be given carte blanche to investigate whomever they feel may be a threat to national security, no matter how they go about doing it.

--------8< snip snip 8<--------

With suspicious people who may be a threat to National Security... to hell with the warrants. Maybe we need another amendment to the Constitution if that will make you happy Arlos. How about "The Government reserves the right to observe in a clandestine fashion, whether electronically, audibly, visually or otherwise, whomever they feel is a threat to the United States or its citizens." Or something to that effect. Maybe then the shortsighted, selfish lefties will finally stfu and let the government do their job without unnecessary hassle and deadly obstructive delays.

gee wonder if he still feels that way now that we have a muslim kenyan running the shitshow

Fascism != Conservatism.

In fact, it is more in line with socialism/liberalism that wants Govt to be the be all end all, instead of lean and out of the way.

dude what the fuck is this? you were doing so well in the rest of the thread! Fascism: "Hostile to liberal democracy, socialism, and communism, fascist movements share certain common features, including the veneration of the state, a devotion to a strong leader, and an emphasis on ultranationalism, ethnocentrism, and militarism. Fascism views political violence, war, and imperialism as a means to achieve national rejuvenation and asserts that nations and races deemed superior should obtain living space by displacing ones deemed weak or inferior." you're a fucking idiot if you think fascism in any way resembles the tenets of modern socialism/liberalism. quite the opposite, actually - i'd argue that's a line-for-line description of the modern GO(T)P

that being said, i think the point you were actually trying to make is that modern socialism/liberalism has a troublesome tendency toward authoritarianism. if that's what you're saying i would certainly listen (and possibly agree) - or at the very least make a counterargument that there's a widening gap between 21st-century democrats and the true ideology of socialism/liberalism as they drift slowly to the center

I'll also take the courts decisions over Lawyers opinions any day and twice on Sunday.

are you not aware that the vast majority of judges were at one time lawyers

America was founded on Christian principles.

this is demonstrably false

C'mon this is crap.

(minrott pwning harrison's post on bullet physics)