Vanguard: Beta Screenshots Leaked

[Naethyn]

When I say content I'm talking about the atmosphere, the lore, and the people you are enjoying it with. Not what drops you can farm out to get more uber. Im talking about the experience and the excitement of being apart of that rich environment.

My best experience with this is Dalnir in kunark. I formed bonds there with friends that have lasted to this day. I didn't get any drops. That is not what made it fun. It was the challenge and enjoyment with the people around me.

[Captain Insano]

I hate instancing. The worst fucking idea ever. Totally segregates the sense of community and ruins the interactive aspect of the game.

Fighting for camps, trains and all the drama adds to the game. In some senses I think EQ took it too far... The cleric epic for example.;

Instead of instances I would prefer they just increase spawn times on contested mobs.

If instancing MUST be implemented it should end by the mid-high game. No high end content should ever be instanced. Having to deal with other players and spawns add to the difficulty and sense of grandiousity to accomplishing the high end game.

[Markarado]

I agree completely. A lot of people claim that they dislike the drama of fighting for camps or mobs, but that's the part of the game that makes it so much fun.

[Snero]

I think it all depends on what you're looking for in a game. When i played eq, I loved most everything about it, I liked the fact that if you were a low level caster you had to look at your book and crank on the sound so you would have a chance to hear something coming or rely on the people in your group to tell you. It made it that much cooler when you finally got to level 35 and could med without your book, it was incredible. Sure the log jam in guk and sol b were annoying, but pre kunark, nobody ever did bats, ldcs, imps, and live side in guk was pretty much always open so there were options (the sol b options were too hard for most groups but live side worked).

This may sound a bit sad, but the fact that they made things hard, and the risk of getting screwed was there, it made it that much cooler when you did get something done. I lead one of or the first pickup raid in fear, and we got our asses kicked, it took us a whole day and some people died a shit ton of times, but we did break the damn zone in without any outside help. It was a miserable experience at the time, but doing it after that made it cooler.

What really made eq though, was the people, the interaction between people. It really was something you couldn't avoid, you had to group unless you were a necro, druid or wizard pretty much,. and that was the best thing they ever decided to do. Forcing people into grouping, and having no instanced content meant you got to know people, made friends and thats what kept people playing for the most part. Instanced content ruined that, now if people are in a raiding guild, they form up groups with guildmates and run through instances, get some loot and xp and call it a day, or they go and solo until their friends are on to do whatever it is they want. They've killed the eq community with instancing, and wow has never had it.

Right now, wow is perfect for what I want because I'm not looking at raiding, I'm not looking at being forced to spend hours in a group. If I want to, I can log in do a quest or two and i'm done, which is nice. Wow is a fun game, but I don't have anywhere near the same attachment to it. It's a fun game, but the game is... hollow

[Zanchief]

The community is way different on new Servers. You do group a lot with random people and form pickup groups and you know all the good players around your lvl because everyone is lvling at the same time. If your late to the party your pretty much just playing catch up to some of your friends that are higher up and getting run through instances and stuff. It's not nearly as fun.

EQ has more of an attachement to you because it was your 1st game. If you had played WoW 1st, you'd find it just as compelling as EQ was.

[Reynaldo]

If WoW would have come out first, EQ would have been nothing. WoW had a pre-existing customer base + being the first big MMO + no one would be able to stomach going to the "harder" style that EQ presented.

I hate using the word harder because no MMO is "hard". I guess more strict penalties and longer time investment ratio to gain accomplishments.

It's an apples to oranges argument though.

As far as instancing, the best example was Plane of Time. That was a good idea to instance.

I don't think you can be successful with an MMO now without some kind of instancing but keeping it to a bare minimum is essential for community purposes.

[Snero]

for raids instancing isn't a bad idea, but for every day single group stuff I think it really hurts games

[Zanchief]

for raids instancing isn't a bad idea, but for every day single group stuff I think it really hurts games

But WoW has tons of every day single group stuff that isn't instanced. you can do both. Personally I would prefer more of it, but not many people do elite quests that aren't in instances because the loot rewards aren't as good.

[Lyion]

I think that WOW pretty much took the best of EQ, DAOC, and AC and merged it nicely.

There's absolutely nothing original in WOW, and yet its by far the best fantasy MMO out right now.

For the record, I absolutely love instancing and think its great for raids or single groups. I think any game that doesn't utilize instancing is being foolish, especially if they expect more than a few people to play.

I wish WOW had a bit more immersion and larger scale things, but overall I think their design document is as good as it gets right now.

EQ was killer because everything was new. That first run through the Karanas or Highhold Pass. The first time in Unrest, running from Undead. The Oh Shit factor when you were jabowned in some remote place.

That feeling is near impossible to replicate with the current level of technology because none of us will ever 'start over' from a 3D MMO perspective.

The next big thing will be when technology allows for newer stuff that will be the jump that EQ was from text based muds, and ~2D RPGs. I have no idea when that will happen, but I doubt it'll come about for at least 3-5 more years. Until then we'll have EQ retreads to play, like WOW and Vanguard.

[Arlos]

Well, one of the "next stage" evolutions that I've heard bandied about is integrated voice. ie, you talk into your microphone, and everyone around you hears what you say, and then something akin to Dragon Naturally Speaking cuts in and transcribes it and sends out the text as well.

Now, I can see *HUGE* downsides to that, given the maturity level of many of the people playing these games, but in concept it'd be cool. (maybe default listening to everyone being off, and you have to turn it on for those you do want to listen to)

-Arlos

[Tikker]

For the record, I absolutely love instancing and think its great for raids or single groups. I think any game that doesn't utilize instancing is being foolish, especially if they expect more than a few people to play.

instancing sucks, and it's a jsut a lame way to hide the fact that you don't have enough content for the volume of players

[Markarado]

I hate instancing. It takes away the competitive side of the game.

[Alphonso]

If they took away the ability to solo in WOW it would make the game 100% better imo.

[Mop]

The only reason i like instancing at end game is so everyone can progress. THough i do belive WOW would have a much shorter life span with out Instancing, as it would be like EQ with 1 guild farming one guild trying and every other guild crying.

[Captain Insano]

a good game should allow progression for the masses without instancing. The key to fixing contested mobs and overcrowding should be well tuned zones and spawn times.. Instancing is a shitty solution for poor design.

[Mop]

instancing is a way to prevent cock blocks.

We used to do it all the time to other guilds, just to do it.

[Lyion]

Instancing is a shitty solution for poor design.

Bullshit. Spoken like someone who never actually played endgame EQ pre instancing, which you obviously didn't.

Instancing is a good solution encapsulating excellent design. You can not like instancing due to the fact there is less drama, but giving more guilds more access to more content in fact is better design.

[Captain Insano]

I was in VG we did plenty of endgame content long before the current instanced expansions came out.

The lack of instancing for most of EQ's life is one of the reasons it has the most interesting community anywhere and I think is paramount to why it is still such as successful game.

If instancing is going to be used it should be very limited and somewhat non existant in the end game. The only place I see a need for it is in timed or very specialized raid content where having other players outside the raid could seriously jeopardize the success or failure of the mission.

That being said here in a very interesting article I found over at FoH's board regarding Vanguard.

In a nutshell the devs are trying to get input on the most basic core mechanics of the game from its dwindling betatesting force of players.

What it boils down to is that after 4 and a half years of development Vanguard's devs havent' even ironed out the core mechanics of the game. They are also intending to release the game unfinished with vacant zones because they are running out of time.

Any further commentary on this game is pretty much useless in my mind after reading that article because the VG release is going to be a disaster. The MMO industry doesn't have room anymore for unfinished crap. People want polished games when they launch, not half assed shit.

Here ya go: http://www.fohguild.org/forums/mmorpg-g ... ey-go.html

[Arlos]

As I said before, that's why Vanguard isn't being released by Microsoft any more. Microsoft got tired of Sigil never making a single deliverable date, and finally called them on the carpet. Microsoft wanted a real firm release date, and was turning off the cash flow as of that date, period. Sigil knew there was no way in hell they'd be done, so Brad called Smed and got SOE to come in as a white knight. SOE bankrolled Sigil's buyout from MS, and got the rights. MS doesn't care, the buyout covered every dollar of their costs PLUS earned them a profit, and took a money pit off of their hands, so they didn't have to worry about it any more.

MS actually did damn good for themselves in all this. They got the buzz from a hot game, then got out when they felt there was no way they'd get good return on investment, because the game was so far from ready and in such a bad state. Plus, not only didn't they take a loss, they made a profit on the whole deal. Not to mention, they got to land a white elephant in SOE's lap, while they laughed themselves all the way to the bank.

Too bad, really. Vanguard could've been a damn good game. Only time will tell if they manage to whip it into shape, or if it'll be Brad's Daikatana.

-Arlos

[Tikker]

Instancing is a shitty solution for poor design.

Bullshit. Spoken like someone who never actually played endgame EQ pre instancing, which you obviously didn't.

Instancing is a good solution encapsulating excellent design. You can not like instancing due to the fact there is less drama, but giving more guilds more access to more content in fact is better design.

no, giving more guilds access to the same content is retarded

having enough different content for everyone is the better way to go

[Lyion]

no, giving more guilds access to the same content is retarded

having enough different content for everyone is the better way to go

I disagree. More choices at once is better than limited choices based on availability.

Contested spawns are terrible. They are great for one or two guilds, but really kill your base. They're a big reason EQ was never the hit WOW is.

[Narrock]

Instancing is a shitty solution for poor design.

Bullshit. Spoken like someone who never actually played endgame EQ pre instancing, which you obviously didn't.

Instancing is a good solution encapsulating excellent design. You can not like instancing due to the fact there is less drama, but giving more guilds more access to more content in fact is better design.

no, giving more guilds access to the same content is retarded

having enough different content for everyone is the better way to go

A reply like that indicates you know nothing about the mechanics of a MMORPG, nor are you in tune with what popular opinion is.

[Narrock]

Lyion Wrote:

I disagree. More choices at once is better than limited choices based on availability.

Contested spawns are terrible. They are great for one or two guilds, but really kill your base. They're a big reason EQ was never the hit WOW is.

QFT

[Arlos]

Ralf, the problem with no instancing is that every server will get a Legacy of Steel. Now, if you're *IN* LOS, your life is golden; you kill what you want, when you want, period. You cockblock anyone #2 or lower (deliberately or not), and effectively you prevent everyone else from getting to any of the same content, until you're done with it and have moved on to something else.

Again, it's great for the group in the #1 spot, and I sure enjoyed it when I was there, but I seem to recall one fuckload of fights and bad feelings that rose out of it among anyone who WASN'T in LOS. There's a reason why we got a lot of use out of an animated gif of a steamroller, and we had the "LOS - We Know Drama" as a logo.

Think about the average WOW server population, and think about just how many guilds there are that are killing in MC/BWL/AQ/Onyxia/ZG. Now, imagine if none of that was instanced. Right now on Stormrage, there's a good half dozen guilds who are at least to Huhuran in AQ, if not more, and 3-4 have downed twin emps. There's gah, a good half-dozen more who can clear BWL, and who the fuck knows how many guilds that can do at least part of MC. If none of that was instanced, instead of a good probably 500-1000 people with opportunities to raid that stuff, you might have 150, with the rest sitting around playing with themselves and bitching, LOUDLY about having nothing to do because of the evil uberguilds and their content-monopolizing ways.

Sorry, but that's bad design in the modern MMO environment, at least if you want to have good-sized server populations and real subscription numbers. That said, there IS a place for non-instanced raid content, and WoW actually has some. 2 of them are sort of training ground encounters for newer raiders, Azuregos and Kazzak, while at least 1-2 of the different Green dragons are actually moderately challenging, or were at first. So, non-instanced content does indeed exist (and yes, there are innumerable whines about people getting steamrolled, etc).

I dunno about anyone else, but I couldn't easily go back to the EQ dungeon paradigm at this point. I pulled for just about every dungeon I went to, so I got to run around all over the place getting mobs, but it still got boring being in the exact same room all the time. Hell, you'd get to the point of having an instinctual feel with how you'd broken up the spawn patterns, and could time yourself to the effect of "OK, I pulled that frog in that tunnel at 9:15, 15 minute spawn timer, it's now 9:29:55, and here I am sitting waiting for 5 seconds for it to show up", or at least I could get pulls that broken down. (dunno about other monks). I really can't imagine how boring it was for the other 5 people who did nothing but sit in the same room for 5 hours staring at the same walls the entire time while a steady stream of mobs showed up, got mowed down, rinse, repeat. I would, at this point, MUCH rather actually move through a dungeon in an actual dungeon crawl, moving from place to place as we kill stuff.

Instancing allows for dungeon crawling, non-instanced does not, at least not once large numbers get there. Old Sebilis when it was just like 20 LOS people with keys was awesome, we moved all around, killed whatever, whenever, and had a blast. 6 months later, when you'd walk in and see "Disco Camped! D2 Camped!" and 8 other camp spot messages with no frogs alive for miles, it wasn't so fun any more.

-Arlos

[Narrock]

Ralf, the problem with no instancing is that every server will get a Legacy of Steel. Now, if you're *IN* LOS, your life is golden; you kill what you want, when you want, period. You cockblock anyone #2 or lower (deliberately or not), and effectively you prevent everyone else from getting to any of the same content, until you're done with it and have moved on to something else.

Again, it's great for the group in the #1 spot, and I sure enjoyed it when I was there, but I seem to recall one fuckload of fights and bad feelings that rose out of it among anyone who WASN'T in LOS. There's a reason why we got a lot of use out of an animated gif of a steamroller, and we had the "LOS - We Know Drama" as a logo.

Think about the average WOW server population, and think about just how many guilds there are that are killing in MC/BWL/AQ/Onyxia/ZG. Now, imagine if none of that was instanced. Right now on Stormrage, there's a good half dozen guilds who are at least to Huhuran in AQ, if not more, and 3-4 have downed twin emps. There's gah, a good half-dozen more who can clear BWL, and who the fuck knows how many guilds that can do at least part of MC. If none of that was instanced, instead of a good probably 500-1000 people with opportunities to raid that stuff, you might have 150, with the rest sitting around playing with themselves and bitching, LOUDLY about having nothing to do because of the evil uberguilds and their content-monopolizing ways.

Sorry, but that's bad design in the modern MMO environment, at least if you want to have good-sized server populations and real subscription numbers. That said, there IS a place for non-instanced raid content, and WoW actually has some. 2 of them are sort of training ground encounters for newer raiders, Azuregos and Kazzak, while at least 1-2 of the different Green dragons are actually moderately challenging, or were at first. So, non-instanced content does indeed exist (and yes, there are innumerable whines about people getting steamrolled, etc).

I dunno about anyone else, but I couldn't easily go back to the EQ dungeon paradigm at this point. I pulled for just about every dungeon I went to, so I got to run around all over the place getting mobs, but it still got boring being in the exact same room all the time. Hell, you'd get to the point of having an instinctual feel with how you'd broken up the spawn patterns, and could time yourself to the effect of "OK, I pulled that frog in that tunnel at 9:15, 15 minute spawn timer, it's now 9:29:55, and here I am sitting waiting for 5 seconds for it to show up", or at least I could get pulls that broken down. (dunno about other monks). I really can't imagine how boring it was for the other 5 people who did nothing but sit in the same room for 5 hours staring at the same walls the entire time while a steady stream of mobs showed up, got mowed down, rinse, repeat. I would, at this point, MUCH rather actually move through a dungeon in an actual dungeon crawl, moving from place to place as we kill stuff.

Instancing allows for dungeon crawling, non-instanced does not, at least not once large numbers get there. Old Sebilis when it was just like 20 LOS people with keys was awesome, we moved all around, killed whatever, whenever, and had a blast. 6 months later, when you'd walk in and see "Disco Camped! D2 Camped!" and 8 other camp spot messages with no frogs alive for miles, it wasn't so fun any more.

-Arlos

also QFT