Vanguard: Beta Screenshots Leaked

Post by **Arlos** » Sun Jun 04, 2006 10:20 pm

Tikker, do you have any idea of the volume of content you'd have to create to keep WOW-population numbers of raid guild people busy with entirely non-instanced content? Gah, it'd be absolutely ridiculous, there's no way you could do it without a 500 person design team or something equally silly. Plus, you and I both know that there's always going to be a "Best" spot that everyone wants to raid. You could still do Fear in Velious, but who in hell cared?

Anyone who has a eral raiding mentality is only gonig to really care about the top tier of stuff, and there is *NO WAY* you can create enough top end content to keep 20+ raiding guilds happy. None. Yet many servers on WOW have 20+ raiding guilds, and they can all be happy. The ONLY guilds that are happy in a non-instanced environment are the LOS's of the world. Sure, we were part of it, and EQ was golden for us. But not everyone can be in LOS, even among those competant enough to be.

If you want a game to be a real success, and not a throw-off niche product, you can't get by on purely non-instanced content any more. The market's moved past it. The fact that WoW's subscriber numbers are > 10x EQs at EQ's absolute peak prove it. Sure, have SOME non-instanced content, even top-end non-instanced content. But at a fundamental level, MOST of your top-end content needs to be instanced, or you're shooting yourself in the foot.

-Arlos

Captain Insano · Post by **Captain Insano** » Sun Jun 04, 2006 10:26 pm

You're posts are very valid and I understand them.

I guess after thinking about it I would have instancing, BUT the very highest tiered stuff, the top 1 percent best equipment would be in a non instanced zone.

Not only would the mobs be tough but the content would be limited by not being instanced. I think community is just as important as playability.

I think WoW took it way too far with instancing. On the other hand I think EQ in its current state is just right.

Post by **Arlos** » Sun Jun 04, 2006 10:33 pm

Mindia wrote:also QFT

OK, no offense meant here, but when I see Mindia QFT one of MY posts, I get the sudden urge to look for Rod Serling hiding behind the couch...

/queue twilight zone music...

:lol:

-Arlos

Captain Insano · Post by **Captain Insano** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 1:12 am

prediction: Vanguard will have a horrid release and be a game played by a small faction of utterly retarded fanbois until it fades to obscurity as part of Sony's all access pass.

Narrock · Post by **Narrock** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 1:13 am

arlos wrote:
Mindia wrote:also QFT

OK, no offense meant here, but when I see Mindia QFT one of MY posts, I get the sudden urge to look for Rod Serling hiding behind the couch...

/queue twilight zone music...

-Arlos

Hey, just because we don't agree on certain social and political issues doesn't mean we can't agree on gaming issues. :hiphop:

Menlaan · Post by **Menlaan** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:07 pm

Hasselhoff wrote:That being said here in a very interesting article I found over at FoH's board regarding Vanguard.

In a nutshell the devs are trying to get input on the most basic core mechanics of the game from its dwindling betatesting force of players.

What it boils down to is that after 4 and a half years of development Vanguard's devs havent' even ironed out the core mechanics of the game. They are also intending to release the game unfinished with vacant zones because they are running out of time.

Any further commentary on this game is pretty much useless in my mind after reading that article because the VG release is going to be a disaster. The MMO industry doesn't have room anymore for unfinished crap. People want polished games when they launch, not half assed shit.

Here ya go: http://www.fohguild.org/forums/mmorpg-g ... ey-go.html

The author of that article has made it his peronsal mission to bash VG in any way he possibly can. He has lost almost all credibility on FoH and is probably going to be banned soon if he hasn't been already.

I think there's plenty of reason to be concerned about VG, but I wouldn't base it on that guy's postings...

Menlaan

Tikker · Post by **Tikker** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 1:26 pm

the massive amounts of instancing in WoW just turn the gaming world into a b.net lobby with graphics

instancing is the right answer to certain problems, but it's not the best possible solution imo

Ginzburgh · Post by **Ginzburgh** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 1:41 pm

Sorry to quote something from page 2 but I guess I skimmed over this:

death penalties forced you to play smart

not WoW style retarded chimp

I guess you done incur 20 gold worth of repair costs several nights a week.

My guild and I have been throwing ourselves at Cthun voraciously and it's disgustingly expensive. In my opinion it definitely leads to a similar amount of grinding to get to where you were before you died.

Example:

When you die repeatedly throwing yourself at a boss in EQ and lose your level, you have to go back out into the world after and grind mob X until you get your level back

When you die repeatedly throwing yourself at a boss in WoW and incur massive repair costs, you have to go back out into the world after and grind mob x or farm herb x or mine vein x or skin hide x to get money for repair costs. And this is something you have to do ALL the time until a boss is on farm status and you arenâ€™t dying as much as you were when you were learning the strat. But by that time, a new encounter goes live and you are learning the new strat on the next biggest boss.

I guess it all depends on where you are in the game but when I die in WoW, it's actually more painful than when I died in EQ. However, I can agree that with a casual player the penalty for dying isnâ€™t nearly as bad as it was in EQ.

Zanchief · Post by **Zanchief** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 1:43 pm

Ginzburgh wrote:Sorry to quote something from page 2 but I guess I skimmed over this:

death penalties forced you to play smart

not WoW style retarded chimp

I guess you done incur 20 gold worth of repair costs several nights a week.

My guild and I have been throwing ourselves at Cthun voraciously and it's disgustingly expensive. In my opinion it definitely leads to a similar amount of grinding to get to where you were before you died.

Example:

When you die repeatedly throwing yourself at a boss in EQ and lose your level, you have to go back out into the world after and grind mob X until you get your level back

When you die repeatedly throwing yourself at a boss in WoW and incur massive repair costs, you have to go back out into the world after and grind mob x or farm herb x or mine vein x or skin hide x to get money for repair costs. And this is something you have to do ALL the time until a boss is on farm status and you arenâ€™t dying as much as you were when you were learning the strat. But by that time, a new encounter goes live and you are learning the new strat on the next biggest boss.

I guess it all depends on where you are in the game but when I die in WoW, it's actually more painful than when I died in EQ. However, I can agree that with a casual player the penalty for dying isnâ€™t nearly as bad as it was in EQ.

In some cases the death penalties are worse than EQ since in EQ most of the loss is taken away with a rezz.

Ginzburgh · Post by **Ginzburgh** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 1:52 pm

But there is no corpse run in WoW. Sure you have to run back to wherever your corpse is, but as soon as you zone into the instance where you died you get your gear back rather than having to get corpse summons.

I look at that as a good thing, I would rather be playing the game than standing around summoning corpses for a half hour.

I don't think that makes my raid group any more lax about playing our best. As I said, there are still penalties, like the 15 minute run back to Cthun's set up spot for one.

Post by **Tossica** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 1:55 pm

This thread is full of nerds!

Oh shit... well, everyone except me of course!

Ginzburgh · Post by **Ginzburgh** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 1:57 pm

I just tried to slip a silent fart out and everything but the "silent" part went to plan and I think a few people in my office heard it :ugh:

Post by **Tossica** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:00 pm

Haha.

Naethyn · Post by **Naethyn** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:06 pm

I think everyone will agree that instancing allows developers to make one high end dungeon per expansion and let every guild play through it. New age mmo is very different from old. The population of games such as wow have reached new heights. Yet the same amount of content is still being pushed out as an expansion.

Major mmo such as wow have the resources to create multiple rich environments that could easily populate the total number of high end players, but they dont. Why create more content if we can make one zone and let every person/guild repeat?

The next evolution of mmo gaming will not be instancing, but of worlds large enough to host the growing player masses. There is simply no reason to introduce instancing if there is enough rich content for everyone to discover.

Zanchief · Post by **Zanchief** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:10 pm

WoW hasn't had an expansion and they've released many new end game zones. This isn't sony that charges you 20$ every time you want a new zone unlocked.

It's not cost effective to make dozens of new end game zones at every expansion. It's just not realistic.

Post by **Lyion** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:17 pm

Zanchief wrote:
In some cases the death penalties are worse than EQ since in EQ most of the loss is taken away with a rezz.

The difference is in EQ early on there was the 'Oh Shit' factor of death, a big penalty that wasn't easily mitigated a fear of screw ups. Dying meant something. It caused a bit of fear and anxiety which added to the danger quotient.

This was never, ever present in WOW, from my earliest days of beta. Still, dying may suck a bit, but there is never a fear of it.

Donnel · Post by **Donnel** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:26 pm

But why should there be? It *is* a game after all.

Agrajag · Post by **Agrajag** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:33 pm

The whole "dying and losing experience" keeps the kiddies from reaching the higher levels. WoW doesn't have that, thus anyone with some time on their hands can eventually reach the max level. No fun in being elite if some 9 year old has a 60 warlock that he made mostly by himself (my son).

Ginzburgh · Post by **Ginzburgh** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:33 pm

This was never, ever present in WOW, from my earliest days of beta. Still, dying may suck a bit, but there is never a fear of it.

Again I will remind you that this notion depends on the player. True, dying doesn't suck as a level 17 rogue soloing in zone X. However, dying does suck if your class is an integral part of a raid and priests can't resurrect during combat.

I will cite one of many examples as to why high end WoW players have a fear of death. During some fights, if you don't beat a particular boss within an allotted time, the boss will enrage and kill everyone. Sometimes we will push these fights to the last few seconds. I am a DPS class, if I die early, we lose my damage and are not going to down the boss before it enrages. With that in mind our raid leader tells everyone to wipe because whatever we do from that point on will be a waste of time.

So yes, there is fear of dying in some cases in WoW.

Ginzburgh · Post by **Ginzburgh** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:37 pm

The whole "dying and losing experience" keeps the kiddies from reaching the higher levels. WoW doesn't have that, thus anyone with some time on their hands can eventually reach the max level. No fun in being elite if some 9 year old has a 60 warlock that he made mostly by himself (my son).

There is nothing elite about a level 60 warlock with non epic gear. There is still a very large gap between those casual level 60 players and the level 60 power gamers in end game raid guilds. If you don't believe me, just visit the WoW general forum at any given time because the casual gamers are always whining for better loot. If they got the better loot for playing as little as they do, I would agree with you but as of now, it takes as much work to pimp out your charector in WoW as it did in EQ.

Naethyn · Post by **Naethyn** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:52 pm

Ginzburgh · Post by **Ginzburgh** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:55 pm

Great rebuttle.

Naethyn · Post by **Naethyn** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 3:01 pm

It's a different game. To compare them on time played shows your experience in both.

Post by **Tossica** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 3:02 pm

haha, he said butt

Agrajag · Post by **Agrajag** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 3:03 pm

Like I said, he made it to 60 MOSTLY by himself. He has a couple of epics because I played his character when we needed an extra lock. He does handle himself quite nicely in PvP situations, though. I've seen him win more times than he's lost.