you can even bring repair bots that nullify the real problems of it.
Actually the real problem of the repair cost is the repair cost and the bot doesn't nullify shit.
I don't even know why I am arguing with you, you've never hit a c-block like Cthun. You have no idea how expensive it is.
And the farming gold part, yes I do it (as there is no way I will ever buy gold for real money). So if dying in wow was trivial, then I wouldn't have to farm gold just to pay for my deaths. Therefore it isn't trivial.
Maybe it's trivial for people draped in blues but once you get gear with high durability it costs a shit ton more. There are warriors in my guild that have 40 gold repair costs per night.
lyion wrote:I've been through tons of wipes. Whats your point? Heck, you can even bring repair bots that nullify the real problems of it, and good guilds are farming and getting plenty of gold. Honestly, how much gold do you have in the bank, Ginz?
Try doing a corpse retrieval as an early rogue in EQ and get in a death loop, and then talk to me.
Death = trivial in WOW. Head to ebay and buy a few thousand plat for a few bucks, and you don't even have to waste time farming money, which in and of itself is pathetically easy, and needed since everyone needs to raise reputation.
You have no fear or anxiety about death in WOW. At least I don't, nor does anyone I know.
I have been on fear raids where I lost almost 2 full level trying to get corpses back. I have seen people lose far more simply because they couldn't get to their corpse and it poofed with all their gear. No amount of gold to repair could compare with that. The damn inconvenience of losing exp on death makes death a major issue in EQ that doesn't exist in WoW. They have made changes of late in EQ to make death less painful but it still invloves both experience loss and PP for the corpse summon.
For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill.
I have been on fear raids where I lost almost 2 full level trying to get corpses back. I have seen people lose far more simply because they couldn't get to their corpse and it poofed with all their gear. No amount of gold to repair could compare with that.
I agree, I wasn't comparing WoW death to EQ death, I was simply disputing Lyion's statement that WoW death is trivial.
Good guilds didn't fear it in EQ either, Lyion. I never worried about whether I could get my corpse back on LOS raids. Not once, not ever. I might lose some XP, but who cared. Even that worry basically went away once they added the Cleric epic into the game; manaless 96% rez finished trivializing any parts that weren't already trivialized.
I'm talking going back as far as our raids into PoSky in early Kunark here too. Maybe the guilds you were in were crappy enough that it was an actual worry, but in LOS we never did, not once. I honestly can't remember much of any times where we even needed to start a raid over again because of a wipe, even in NTOV. We almost always were able to rez in place and keep going. At WORST, some of the necros would drop by the bank, pick up a few stacks of small coffins and we'd run back to the zonein naked and summon everyone. Even if we were KOS to dragons and Aaryonar was up it was no problem, a bard or 2 would pick up backup drums from the bank, and would train him off so that people could run by. That or we'd send a rogue with a Vox stick back to the death point, he'd drag everyone to a safe spot, rez a cleric, and we'd be good to go again in 10 minutes, tops.
Ultimately, even in Kunark, the death penalty in EQ was some money and some time (XP = time), nothing more, if you were in a good guild. Trying to claim it was more than that is utterly fallacious, for competant guilds. Screwup guilds like SoV, maybe another matter, but we in LOS never ONCE had death-related situations where any person EVER lost a corpse or entire levels trying to get their corpses back, and I'm sure any other LOS member can back me up on this.
-Arlos
Last edited by Arlos on Wed Jun 07, 2006 3:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
i personaly dont think wows death is trival in the least - 20 gold a pop is usualy what Irun on a avg night. That being said I think zg and AQ 20 do a good job of combating that as in both i make upwards for 30 g a night just in clearing the instance.
Yeah, you can easily run 20g a night in repairs due to deaths in working on C'Thun, or any new encounter really. Plus, you frequently have expenses in buying various potions, including mana potions, health potions, resist potions, mongoose potions, and especially flasks, etc. Actually, using Bots INCREASES your costs, as you pay full cost for repair from a bot, instead of 80% from a faction repair guy, assuming honored faction and sufficient PVP rank. Bots are merely a means by which you can extend in-dungeon time, rather than having to have people run out, repair, run back.
I'm actually lucky in that my guild subsidizes those repairs for whatever the latest raid zone is. They collect all the random BOE drops and extra idols/scarabs/elementium ore/etc and sell it on the AH to fund the guild bank, which handles buying all of the components for raiding potions, as well as reimbursing us for our repairs. So, officers pass out potions on raid to anyone who needs them, and after the raid, we figure out how much we spent on repairs and send a COD email to the guild banker for our costs. I think our guild bank has something like 100k gold in it now, so it can easily afford it.
I seriously doubt WoW encounters are harder than EQ encounters. The fact that you're referencing PoP era content makes your arguement really weak.
Uh, Drem, do you not remember my history? I was doing cutting edge EQ raid encounters in initial release (with FOW at that point, when we got Cazic Thule in fear), then Kunark, Velious, Luclin and PoP with Legacy of Steel. If you're trying to tell me that LOS wasn't doing cutting edge raiding for much of the life of EQ, I will laugh in your face. I finally left after moving and not getting internet in for 2 months, then came back to GoD which was so godawful that I couldn't deal with it.
So yes, I have about 4 years of experience at high end EQ raid encounters, and I STILL say that WoW raid encounters require much more planning, attention and coordination than just about any EQ raid encounter I ever experienced. Even something that took as much work as the AOW during velious was fundamentally a simple encounter; it was just that there was no possible way to keep a PC tank alive at the time we killed him. WoW strats, at least on many on-MC mobs, are IMPOSSIBLE to do with the old paradigm of single MT, chain-healed. Look at the C'Thun encounter design sometime.
-Arlos
Yeah I know your history, good for you, but that's all old EQ. You're comparing stuff from WoW designed recently to stuff in EQ designed 3+ years ago. You obviously haven't done anything new or you wouldn't be saying shit like that. GoD, OoW, DoN, DoD, and PoR... you've missed all these expansions, so I don't think you can come and say WoW is harder than EQ. Your arguement is basically saying : I played Age of Empires 2 and it was a lot harder than Warcraft 1.
Like I said before, we can compare what we consider the hardest raids to be via a PM or something since the rest of the thread doesn't really care and I can't post our strats on public forums. Think Snero chimed in with MM kill, but tbqh i think Vule, Sendaii, Daosheen, or almost every fight in Demi is probably the toughest, taking a couple hours or so each to fight. You don't even use an MT/CCH during Sendaii for nearly 50% of the fight.
It sounds like you guys that quit think that EQ is exactly the same or something. Lyion even said WoW is more innovative, because he's apparently seen the current end-game of EQ. Haha
Last edited by Drem on Wed Jun 07, 2006 3:35 pm, edited 3 times in total.
arlos wrote:but we in LOS never ONCE had death-related situations where any person EVER lost a corpse or entire levels trying to get their corpses back, and I'm sure any other LOS member can back me up on this.
Actually in one of our early POFear runs, Draed went from 50 to 47 getting his corpse back and had to level in Kedge to get back to 50.
As far as dying, I liked the PoP idea with the graveyards, to where there was at least a little penalty if you completely wiped out of waiting 15minutes, then the challenge of getting ressed and looted before some druid trained the graveyard.
The current way of summoning a corpse for 200pp tops is very gimp. I'm interested in seeing how the new server will respond to all those amenities being taken away and seeing if all the hardasses can actually deal with it again =)
Heh, that was before my time, Rey. I think you'll agree though that my statement stands for the entire time I was with LOS, which is Kunark on. I know I can't remember a single time where anyone lost levels as part of an extended corpse-retrieval, and I KNOW no one ever lost a corpse. The only corpse-losses I can remember are people like Drybone, who died and then quit without bothering to loot his corpse, and then was all upset that his stuff poofed when he came back later.
Losing corpses was more a problem for the more casual players. If you died on say a Fear raid and were forced to log due to real life issue and either couldn't get back on or couldn't get enough people to help you recover your corpse when you were back, then you would probalby lose that corpse. The planes were really the problem because not everyone could just pop up to them and get their corpses.
For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill.
Jay wrote:Agra, only a handful of guilds on Nameless can say they cleared PoP content before the end of 2004. That's LoS, PoN and MAYBE Euphoria. You were either with one of them, or you're full of shit. When you experience the levels of teamwork and dedication it takes to get to that level in the game it's not something you forget easily, let alone the name of the guild you belonged to.
[smiley poster=surprise]still waiting on the answer yo[/smiley]
you can even bring repair bots that nullify the real problems of it.
Actually the real problem of the repair cost is the repair cost and the bot doesn't nullify shit.
I don't even know why I am arguing with you, you've never hit a c-block like Cthun. You have no idea how expensive it is.
And the farming gold part, yes I do it (as there is no way I will ever buy gold for real money). So if dying in wow was trivial, then I wouldn't have to farm gold just to pay for my deaths. Therefore it isn't trivial.
Maybe it's trivial for people draped in blues but once you get gear with high durability it costs a shit ton more. There are warriors in my guild that have 40 gold repair costs per night.
So the risks of dieing in wow are only great if your a cool guy?
We're talking about 20 Gold per night repair costs. Those kinds of repair costs can only be attributed to one boss at the moment, the last boss. So to answer your question, yes.
Being that Naxx is right around the corner, raiding people in WoW are going to have to get use to those repair costs because the word from the test server is, it takes a LONG time to learn the ecounters.
