Jews for Jesus

[Narrock]

that have shown our dating methods to be inaccurate as hell.

Define inaccurate? There is a big difference between 6,000 years and 100 million years.

I already posted that. They say anything over 4000 years old is "up in the air" as far as dating accuracy.

[Agrajag]

Wait...what about dinosaurs? Aren't those millions of years old?

We don't know, actually. There's also a theory on dragons having existed too, but their bodies contained acids which dissolved even their own bones after they died, therefore leaving no trace evidence of their existence.

Wouldn't the acid in the dinosaur's bones kill the dinosaur? I mean if it disolved the bones after death, why wouldn't it disolve the bones while they were alive?

[Ginzburgh]

I already posted that. They say anything over 4000 years old is "up in the air" as far as dating accuracy.

That doesn't sound correct to me. Post a link or something.

I don't know how scientists can estimate a date of 100+ million years when anything over 4,000 years old is "up in the air".

[Thon]

We don't know, actually. There's also a theory on dragons having existed too, but their bodies contained acids which dissolved even their own bones after they died, therefore leaving no trace evidence of their existence.

[Arlos]

Mindia, I'm also failing to understand how you can say dating methods for anything older than 4000 years can be entirely inaccurate, when many of them are inaccurate on anything as YOUNG as 4000 years. Remember, none of these methods are in any way related to Carbon-14 dating methods, period. C-14 does indeed get less and less accurate the older the sample, though as we were shown in the Geology class I was just in, it's more at about 10,000 years that it becomes more problematic.

The radiometric dates of igneous rocks are actually in excellent agreement with theory on the evolution of the Earth itself (not talking life here, talking geology), and also fit in very well with the ages of rocks obtained on the moon. The youngest moon-rock found is about 200 million years older than the oldest terrestrial rock found, which is entirely consistent with how we feel the moon was created.

How that worked is as follows: Something the size of Mars slammed into the earth at an oblique angle, blasting the crap out of the earth, spraying a huge ring of debris into orbit around the Earth, some of which fell back, some of which coalesced into The Moon. That's why the moon has no dense core, and the earth has a much larger one than, say, Venus, which is almost identical in size to us; it's because the core of the impactor body fell down to area of like density in the Earth, while generally only the lighter rock got blown into space. So, rocks on the Moon are the age of rocks on the surface of the Earth at the time of impact, but the collision completely fucked up the Earth below, and it ended up totally resurfacing itself with newer rock, which is why we can't find anything as old on Earth as we do on the Moon.

BTW, Mindia, remember that tree-ring dating method I talked about, that involved nothing more than matching widths and counting? Well, scientists have used that to cross-check Carbon-14 dates of stuff from several thousand years ago. To be fair, they are indeed finding that C-14 is inaccurate, but it tends to be about only in the neighborhood of 10% or so, not by like 50% or something. Unfortunately, it's pretty much universal that the C-14 dates tend to be too YOUNG by about 10%, not too OLD. So, they found that ancient samples that they tested, if C-14 said 10,000 years old, tree ring data would indicate an age of about 11,000 years.

-Arlos

[Harrison]

Wait...what about dinosaurs? Aren't those millions of years old?

We don't know, actually. There's also a theory on dragons having existed too, but their bodies contained acids which dissolved even their own bones after they died, therefore leaving no trace evidence of their existence.

Wouldn't the acid in the dinosaur's bones kill the dinosaur? I mean if it disolved the bones after death, why wouldn't it disolve the bones while they were alive?

My guess would be a strong mucus lining of the organ that held these acids. When you die you no longer produce this mucus thus making it burst etc. etc.

(sort of the same as our stomach but to a lesser degree, without the mucus lining you would digest your own stomach)

Not that I quite agree or disagree with the theory that "dragons" existed. Just figured I'd chime in with that.

[Ganzo]

So I read the article. It is writen by someone who is very uninformed, and only learned the skim version of judaism. No real reason why we do not belive in Jesus being machiah, vere presented. It was a propaganda post from proppaganda website. Whole Jews for Jesus is oxymoron, cause if you belive in Jesus you not Jew.

[Jimmy Durante]

We don't know, actually. There's also a theory on dragons having existed too, but their bodies contained acids which dissolved even their own bones after they died, therefore leaving no trace evidence of their existence.

Keep your chin up. Once we find the bones of Grendel, those of dragons can't be terribly far behind.

[Tikker]

So I read the article. It is writen by someone who is very uninformed, and only learned the skim version of judaism. No real reason why we do not belive in Jesus being machiah, vere presented. It was a propaganda post from proppaganda website. Whole Jews for Jesus is oxymoron, cause if you belive in Jesus you not Jew.

difference being that jews are still waiting for the messiah, while christians believe christ was the messiah, no?

[Donnel]

Sorry to disagree with you Donnel, but rejecting new ideas, regardless of their merit, simply because they happen to disagree with whatyou already believe anyway is just about the definitions of close-mindedness.

I know you're one of the 4004 BC earth created crowd. However, to believe that, you have to ignore literally mountains of geologic and physical evidence against the concept. Likewise believing in a global flood, etc. etc. etc. That, to me at least, is being close-minded to reality.

You have every right to believe what you wish, of course, but...

-Arlos

I don't ignore geological evidence. The evidence in my opinion supports these events, not deny's them.

[Donnel]

I think YOU need to learn what true open mindedness is.

I doesn't mean that you allow yourself to be pushed back and forth like a branch in the wind.

It means allowing yourself to be presented with ideas without immediate dismissal. When an idea conflicts with my faith however then it leaves little room in my mind for legitimacy.

I am not close minded in the least. I just choose what I allow to stay in my mind.

First off, the not being open minded wasn't directed at you. Second, I admitted to being wrong, yet you keep on it. Dwell much?

My bad man, missed the context and thought you were ribbing me

[Ganzo]

So I read the article. It is writen by someone who is very uninformed, and only learned the skim version of judaism. No real reason why we do not belive in Jesus being machiah, vere presented. It was a propaganda post from proppaganda website. Whole Jews for Jesus is oxymoron, cause if you belive in Jesus you not Jew.

difference being that jews are still waiting for the messiah, while christians believe christ was the messiah, no?

wrong:

messiah to christians is a dude who comes to save them

machiah to jews is a state of being that anyone can achive, state of enlitement, close to the consept of buddism

[Ginzburgh]

or the concept of Buddhism, however you want to look at it.

[Ganzo]

or the concept of Buddhism, however you want to look at it.

your powers of spellcheck add wonders to this discussion oh great one

[Arlos]

I don't ignore geological evidence. The evidence in my opinion supports these events, not deny's them.

OK, then care to comment on the various evidence I posted in this thread after that one statement?

-Arlos

[Tikker]

So I read the article. It is writen by someone who is very uninformed, and only learned the skim version of judaism. No real reason why we do not belive in Jesus being machiah, vere presented. It was a propaganda post from proppaganda website. Whole Jews for Jesus is oxymoron, cause if you belive in Jesus you not Jew.

difference being that jews are still waiting for the messiah, while christians believe christ was the messiah, no?

wrong:

messiah to christians is a dude who comes to save them

machiah to jews is a state of being that anyone can achive, state of enlitement, close to the consept of buddism

hrm

isn't there supposed to be like an actual messiah that the jews are waiting for?

or am I just thinking of the guy who's someday supposed to rebuild the temple

[Tikker]

sorry, had to google, cause it was bugging me

Over the centuries, a number of clear formulations of Jewish principles of faith have appeared, and though they differ with respect to certain details, they demonstrate a commonality of core ideology. Of these, the one most widely considered authoritative is Maimonides' thirteen principles of faith, which assert the following:

1. I believe with perfect faith that the Creator, blessed be His Name, is the Creator and Guide of everything that has been created; He alone has made, does make, and will make all things.
2. I believe with perfect faith that the Creator, blessed be His Name, is One, and that there is no unity in any manner like unto His, and that He alone is our God, who was, and is, and will be.
3. I believe with perfect faith that the Creator, blessed be His Name, is not a body, and that He is free from all the properties of matter, and that He has not any form whatever.
4. I believe with perfect faith that the Creator, blessed be His Name, is the first and the last.
5. I believe with perfect faith that to the Creator, blessed be His Name, and to Him alone, it is right to pray, and that it is not right to pray to any being besides Him.
6. I believe with perfect faith that all the works of the prophets are true.
7. I believe with perfect faith that the prophecy of Moses, our teacher, peace be unto him, was true, and that he was the chief of the prophets, both of those who preceded and of those who followed him.
8. I believe with perfect faith that the whole Torah, now in our possession, is the same that was given to Moses, our teacher, peace be unto him.
9. I believe with perfect faith that this Torah will not be changed, and that there will never be any other Law from the Creator, blessed be His name.
10. I believe with perfect faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, knows every deed of the children of men, and all their thoughts, as it is said. It is He that fashioned the hearts of them all, that gives heed to all their works.
11. I believe with perfect faith that the Creator, blessed be His Name, rewards those that keep His commandments and punishes those that transgress them.
12. I believe with perfect faith in the coming of the Messiah; and, though he tarry, I will wait daily for his coming.
13. I believe with perfect faith that there will be a revival of the dead at the time when it shall please the Creator, blessed be His name, and exalted be His Name for ever and ever.

[Narrock]

Jesus is the messiah. Jews just seemed to miss the boat for some reason.

Fulfilled Prophecies

The following prophecies concerning Jesus Christ were made in the Old Testament and were fulfilled hundreds of years later, during Jesus Christ's life on earth. They are followed by the verses containing both the prophecy and the fulfillment.

1. He would be born of a Virgin (Isaiah 7:14 and Matthew 1:18).
2. He would be of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10 and Luke 3:23, 33).
3. He would be of King David's seed (Jeremiah 23:5 and Luke 3:23, 31).
4. He would be born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2 and Matthew 2:1).
5. He would be a prophet (Deuteronomy 18:18-19 and Matthew 21:11).
6. He would teach with parables (Psalms 78:2 and Matthew 13:34).
7. He would be preceded by a messenger (Isaiah 40:3, Malachi 3:1, and Matthew 3:1-2).
8. He would enter Jerusalem on a colt (Zechariah 9:9 and Luke 19:35-37).
9. He would be betrayed by a friend (Psalms 41:9 and Matthew 26:47-50).
10. He would be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12 and Matthew 26:15).
11. He would be forsaken by His disciples (Zechariah 13:7 and Mark 14:50).
12. The money would be thrown in the temple and used to buy the potter's field (Zechariah 11:13 and Matthew 27:5-7).
13. He would be accused by false witnesses (Psalms 35:11 and Matthew 26:59-60).
14. He would be silent before His accusers (Isaiah 53:7 and Matthew 27:12-14).
15. He would be beaten by his enemies (Isaiah 50:6, 53:5, and Matthew 27:26).
16. He would be spit upon and beaten (Isaiah 50:6 and Matthew 27:30).
17. He would be struck in the head with a rod (Micah 5:1 and Matthew 27:30).
18. He would be mocked (Psalms 22:7-8 and Matthew 27:29, 31).
19. His hands and feet would be pierced (Psalms 22:16, Luke 23:33, and John 20:25).
Note that this was predicted hundreds of years before crucifixion was invented.
20. Men would gamble for His clothing (Psalms 22:18 and John 19:23-24).
21. He would intercede in prayer for His transgressors (Isaiah 53:12 and Luke 23:34).
22. He would suffer thirst (Psalms 22:15 and John 19:28).
23. He would be offered gall and water (Psalms 69:21 and Matthew 27:34).
24. He would cry, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me!" (Psalms 22:1 and Matthew 27:46).
25. He would be cut down in His prime (Psalms 89:45 and 102:23-24).
26. None of His bones would be broken (Exodus 12:46, Psalms 34:20, and John 19:32-33).
27. They would look upon Him whom they had pierced (Zechariah 12:10 and John 19:34).
28. He would be executed with thieves (Isaiah 53:12 and Matthew 27:38).
29. He would be buried in a rich man's tomb (Isaiah 53:9 and Matthew 27:57-60).

Quite a series of "coincidences" eh?

[Tikker]

Jesus is the messiah. Jews just seemed to miss the boat for some reason.

don't gay up the thread mindia

[Donnel]

I don't ignore geological evidence. The evidence in my opinion supports these events, not deny's them.

OK, then care to comment on the various evidence I posted in this thread after that one statement?

-Arlos

But we've done it oh so many times before

[Tossica]

Jesus is the messiah. Jews just seemed to miss the boat for some reason.

Fulfilled Prophecies

The following prophecies concerning Jesus Christ were made in the Old Testament and were fulfilled hundreds of years later, during Jesus Christ's life on earth. They are followed by the verses containing both the prophecy and the fulfillment.

1. He would be born of a Virgin (Isaiah 7:14 and Matthew 1:18).
2. He would be of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10 and Luke 3:23, 33).
3. He would be of King David's seed (Jeremiah 23:5 and Luke 3:23, 31).
4. He would be born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2 and Matthew 2:1).
5. He would be a prophet (Deuteronomy 18:18-19 and Matthew 21:11).
6. He would teach with parables (Psalms 78:2 and Matthew 13:34).
7. He would be preceded by a messenger (Isaiah 40:3, Malachi 3:1, and Matthew 3:1-2).
8. He would enter Jerusalem on a colt (Zechariah 9:9 and Luke 19:35-37).
9. He would be betrayed by a friend (Psalms 41:9 and Matthew 26:47-50).
10. He would be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12 and Matthew 26:15).
11. He would be forsaken by His disciples (Zechariah 13:7 and Mark 14:50).
12. The money would be thrown in the temple and used to buy the potter's field (Zechariah 11:13 and Matthew 27:5-7).
13. He would be accused by false witnesses (Psalms 35:11 and Matthew 26:59-60).
14. He would be silent before His accusers (Isaiah 53:7 and Matthew 27:12-14).
15. He would be beaten by his enemies (Isaiah 50:6, 53:5, and Matthew 27:26).
16. He would be spit upon and beaten (Isaiah 50:6 and Matthew 27:30).
17. He would be struck in the head with a rod (Micah 5:1 and Matthew 27:30).
18. He would be mocked (Psalms 22:7-8 and Matthew 27:29, 31).
19. His hands and feet would be pierced (Psalms 22:16, Luke 23:33, and John 20:25).
Note that this was predicted hundreds of years before crucifixion was invented.
20. Men would gamble for His clothing (Psalms 22:18 and John 19:23-24).
21. He would intercede in prayer for His transgressors (Isaiah 53:12 and Luke 23:34).
22. He would suffer thirst (Psalms 22:15 and John 19:28).
23. He would be offered gall and water (Psalms 69:21 and Matthew 27:34).
24. He would cry, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me!" (Psalms 22:1 and Matthew 27:46).
25. He would be cut down in His prime (Psalms 89:45 and 102:23-24).
26. None of His bones would be broken (Exodus 12:46, Psalms 34:20, and John 19:32-33).
27. They would look upon Him whom they had pierced (Zechariah 12:10 and John 19:34).
28. He would be executed with thieves (Isaiah 53:12 and Matthew 27:38).
29. He would be buried in a rich man's tomb (Isaiah 53:9 and Matthew 27:57-60).

Quite a series of "coincidences" eh?

Or could it possibly be that history was written so that Jesus matched all of those criteria even though most of them were not true?

[Lionking]

Here is a common Christian perspective on how it's going to go down:

* Many Christians feel that Jesus Christ is first going to come back 'in the clouds', first raise the dead, then rapture the living christians and take them all back with him to heaven for the 'wedding of the Bride of Christ'. Bride being the Christian Church.

* This sudden departure of 100 million +? people is going to freak the rest of the world out. This will allows the rise of the 'anti-christ' who will smooth over the rapture and will claim to be the messiah. Some kind of deal will be made that has the mosque in Jerusalem moved to Mecca. This will allows the Jews to rebuild their temple to the specs established in the book of Ezekiel. Animal sacrifices will begin again. The Jews will truly believe this anti-christ is the real, true messiah and they will worship him as such. This period of time is commonly called the Great Tribulation. The anti-christ will have an image (the abomination the creates desolation) placed in the temple. The Jews will begin to realize that they f'd up and are worshiping a satanic dude.

* During the first 3 1/2 years of the 7 year tribulation, there will be 2 prophets proclaiming the Gospel of Christ. Speculation has it being Elijah and Moses. The anti-christ wants to kill these 2 dudes but won't be able to until the mid-point of the tribulation. These prophets are supposed to bring about the conversion of the 144,000 jews to Christ. The anti-christ finally is able to kill the prophets and they remain dead for 3 1/2 days. The entire world will rejoice. However, they will be resurrected after the 3 1/2 days and will be taken to heaven.

* At this point, the shit hits the fan and God really lets the world have it with his bowls of wrath. Anyone worshiping the anti-christ (the 666 deal) will be tormented. This all leads up to mankind's final solution of exterminating the Jews. Every country that is left will ramp up to come down hard on Israel. 2/3 of all Jews will be dead at this point. The remaining 1/3 left will finally cry out to their God to save them. This will be at the very end of the 7-year tribulation period. When they finally cry out, Christ will return, set his feet on the Mount of Olives and will destroy the armies opposing Israel. Isiah 53 (an OLD testament book) states this clearly.

* This battle is Armageddon. This is where Christ defeats anti-christ and his armies, throws them in the lake of fire. Binds Satan for 1000 years and Christ finally establishes the Jewish kingdom, reigning from the throne of David.

* 1000 years goes by, Satan is let go, he again deceives the nations and leads the world against Christ. God the father says enough is enough and casts down fire to consume them ; Satan and his angels cast into the lake of fire.

* Finally, you have the Great White Throne judgement of all the damned, they are tossed into the Lake of Fire, God makes a new heaven and new earth and all those who were saved spent the rest of eternity with God.

Any questions?

[Donnel]

Personally I believe it will be Enoch and Elijah.

The two recorded in the Bible said to have not died.

[Harrison]

Yes, can we hurry this up?

I am sick of this place already.

[Ganzo]

sorry, had to google, cause it was bugging me

Over the centuries, a number of clear formulations of Jewish principles of faith have appeared, and though they differ with respect to certain details, they demonstrate a commonality of core ideology. Of these, the one most widely considered authoritative is Maimonides' thirteen principles of faith, which assert the following:

1. I believe with perfect faith that the Creator, blessed be His Name, is the Creator and Guide of everything that has been created; He alone has made, does make, and will make all things.
2. I believe with perfect faith that the Creator, blessed be His Name, is One, and that there is no unity in any manner like unto His, and that He alone is our God, who was, and is, and will be.
3. I believe with perfect faith that the Creator, blessed be His Name, is not a body, and that He is free from all the properties of matter, and that He has not any form whatever.
4. I believe with perfect faith that the Creator, blessed be His Name, is the first and the last.
5. I believe with perfect faith that to the Creator, blessed be His Name, and to Him alone, it is right to pray, and that it is not right to pray to any being besides Him.
6. I believe with perfect faith that all the works of the prophets are true.
7. I believe with perfect faith that the prophecy of Moses, our teacher, peace be unto him, was true, and that he was the chief of the prophets, both of those who preceded and of those who followed him.
8. I believe with perfect faith that the whole Torah, now in our possession, is the same that was given to Moses, our teacher, peace be unto him.
9. I believe with perfect faith that this Torah will not be changed, and that there will never be any other Law from the Creator, blessed be His name.
10. I believe with perfect faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, knows every deed of the children of men, and all their thoughts, as it is said. It is He that fashioned the hearts of them all, that gives heed to all their works.
11. I believe with perfect faith that the Creator, blessed be His Name, rewards those that keep His commandments and punishes those that transgress them.
12. I believe with perfect faith in the coming of the Messiah; and, though he tarry, I will wait daily for his coming.
13. I believe with perfect faith that there will be a revival of the dead at the time when it shall please the Creator, blessed be His name, and exalted be His Name for ever and ever.

I have studied Judaism for last 20 years, I've graduated Yeshiva(seminarry), I've studdied with many Orthodox Rabbis and Kabalists, and continue my studies till this day. I can tell you one thing, like all religions and philosophies, Judaism is always evolving.

Now 13 principles of Rambam are guideline writen for commoners in the Ghettos, to uplift their spirits, and keep them in line with faith. However those who studdied their faith later found out that Talmud like Torah and all rabbis, including Rambam(Rabi Moshe ben Maimonides), speak in the language of Branches.

Language of Branches means, that someone who reached a point of understanding and enlightenment sees true spiritual world, but forced to speak it with common language so those who do not see this yet can understand. Because he has to describe world above physical but has to use terms of this world. Because in higher, spritual world there are no terms. But because from there like branches from the roots, come powers, actions, and objects in our world, so to describe the roots of objects, actions and powers of our world used names of the brances, their results in our world. This language is called "Language of Branches". In it written entire Old Testament, Talmud, and many other Judaism books.

As far as consept of Messiah during time of Jesus. Myth and religious concepts are two diferent things. during hard opression years under Rome, concept of machiah was corrupted by commoners into a person who was to save them and restore true king, this consept is common among most nations that were struggling. During 200 years, there vere 18 people names a Messiah, including Jesus. I do not doubt that JC might have achived state of Machiah and tought many people his way, but he ran across corrupt politicians and got killed. However his followers turned his teachings into a separate religion, and over time lost the way that he was teaching.

Jesus was not first, not last Machiah, but this does not mean i have to worship him, It just means that he reached a goal we all should be striving toward.