Jews for Jesus

[Tossica]

Makes sense Ganzo.

[Tikker]

During 200 years, there vere 18 people names a Messiah, including Jesus. I do not doubt that JC might have achived state of Machiah and tought many people his way, but he ran across corrupt politicians and got killed. However his followers turned his teachings into a separate religion, and over time lost the way that he was teaching.

Jesus was not first, not last Machiah, but this does not means i have to worship him, It just means that he reached a goal we all should be striving toward.

I liked that explanation

[Harrison]

I'm with the Jews on this one. (in-fact, I think I'm an undercover Jew)

[Hound]

Keep your chin up. Once we find the bones of Grendel, those of dragons can't be terribly far behind.

Hwæt! We Gardena in geardagum þeodcyninga þrym gefrunon hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.

[Agrajag]

sorry, had to google, cause it was bugging me

Over the centuries, a number of clear formulations of Jewish principles of faith have appeared, and though they differ with respect to certain details, they demonstrate a commonality of core ideology. Of these, the one most widely considered authoritative is Maimonides' thirteen principles of faith, which assert the following:

1. I believe with perfect faith that the Creator, blessed be His Name, is the Creator and Guide of everything that has been created; He alone has made, does make, and will make all things.
2. I believe with perfect faith that the Creator, blessed be His Name, is One, and that there is no unity in any manner like unto His, and that He alone is our God, who was, and is, and will be.
3. I believe with perfect faith that the Creator, blessed be His Name, is not a body, and that He is free from all the properties of matter, and that He has not any form whatever.
4. I believe with perfect faith that the Creator, blessed be His Name, is the first and the last.
5. I believe with perfect faith that to the Creator, blessed be His Name, and to Him alone, it is right to pray, and that it is not right to pray to any being besides Him.
6. I believe with perfect faith that all the works of the prophets are true.
7. I believe with perfect faith that the prophecy of Moses, our teacher, peace be unto him, was true, and that he was the chief of the prophets, both of those who preceded and of those who followed him.
8. I believe with perfect faith that the whole Torah, now in our possession, is the same that was given to Moses, our teacher, peace be unto him.
9. I believe with perfect faith that this Torah will not be changed, and that there will never be any other Law from the Creator, blessed be His name.
10. I believe with perfect faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, knows every deed of the children of men, and all their thoughts, as it is said. It is He that fashioned the hearts of them all, that gives heed to all their works.
11. I believe with perfect faith that the Creator, blessed be His Name, rewards those that keep His commandments and punishes those that transgress them.
12. I believe with perfect faith in the coming of the Messiah; and, though he tarry, I will wait daily for his coming.
13. I believe with perfect faith that there will be a revival of the dead at the time when it shall please the Creator, blessed be His name, and exalted be His Name for ever and ever.

I have studied Judaism for last 20 years, I've graduated Yeshiva(seminarry), I've studdied with many Orthodox Rabbis and Kabalists, and continue my studies till this day. I can tell you one thing, like all religions and philosophies, Judaism is always evolving.

Now 13 principles of Rambam are guideline writen for commoners in the Ghettos, to uplift their spirits, and keep them in line with faith. However those who studdied their faith later found out that Talmud like Torah and all rabbis, including Rambam(Rabi Moshe ben Maimonides), speak in the language of Branches.

Language of Branches means, that someone who reached a point of understanding and enlightenment sees true spiritual world, but forced to speak it with common language so those who do not see this yet can understand. Because he has to describe world above physical but has to use terms of this world. Because in higher, spritual world there are no terms. But because from there like branches from the roots, come powers, actions, and objects in our world, so to describe the roots of objects, actions and powers of our world used names of the brances, their results in our world. This language is called "Language of Branches". In it written entire Old Testament, Talmud, and many other Judaism books.

As far as consept of Messiah during time of Jesus. Myth and religious concepts are two diferent things. during hard opression years under Rome, concept of machiah was corrupted by commoners into a person who was to save them and restore true king, this consept is common among most nations that were struggling. During 200 years, there vere 18 people names a Messiah, including Jesus. I do not doubt that JC might have achived state of Machiah and tought many people his way, but he ran across corrupt politicians and got killed. However his followers turned his teachings into a separate religion, and over time lost the way that he was teaching.

Jesus was not first, not last Machiah, but this does not mean i have to worship him, It just means that he reached a goal we all should be striving toward.

Just... wow! Very nice post... If I was to believe in God, I'd want some of what you got.

[Narrock]

Here is a common Christian perspective on how it's going to go down:

* Many Christians feel that Jesus Christ is first going to come back 'in the clouds', first raise the dead, then rapture the living christians and take them all back with him to heaven for the 'wedding of the Bride of Christ'. Bride being the Christian Church.

* This sudden departure of 100 million +? people is going to freak the rest of the world out. This will allows the rise of the 'anti-christ' who will smooth over the rapture and will claim to be the messiah. Some kind of deal will be made that has the mosque in Jerusalem moved to Mecca. This will allows the Jews to rebuild their temple to the specs established in the book of Ezekiel. Animal sacrifices will begin again. The Jews will truly believe this anti-christ is the real, true messiah and they will worship him as such. This period of time is commonly called the Great Tribulation. The anti-christ will have an image (the abomination the creates desolation) placed in the temple. The Jews will begin to realize that they f'd up and are worshiping a satanic dude.

* During the first 3 1/2 years of the 7 year tribulation, there will be 2 prophets proclaiming the Gospel of Christ. Speculation has it being Elijah and Moses. The anti-christ wants to kill these 2 dudes but won't be able to until the mid-point of the tribulation. These prophets are supposed to bring about the conversion of the 144,000 jews to Christ. The anti-christ finally is able to kill the prophets and they remain dead for 3 1/2 days. The entire world will rejoice. However, they will be resurrected after the 3 1/2 days and will be taken to heaven.

* At this point, the shit hits the fan and God really lets the world have it with his bowls of wrath. Anyone worshiping the anti-christ (the 666 deal) will be tormented. This all leads up to mankind's final solution of exterminating the Jews. Every country that is left will ramp up to come down hard on Israel. 2/3 of all Jews will be dead at this point. The remaining 1/3 left will finally cry out to their God to save them. This will be at the very end of the 7-year tribulation period. When they finally cry out, Christ will return, set his feet on the Mount of Olives and will destroy the armies opposing Israel. Isiah 53 (an OLD testament book) states this clearly.

* This battle is Armageddon. This is where Christ defeats anti-christ and his armies, throws them in the lake of fire. Binds Satan for 1000 years and Christ finally establishes the Jewish kingdom, reigning from the throne of David.

* 1000 years goes by, Satan is let go, he again deceives the nations and leads the world against Christ. God the father says enough is enough and casts down fire to consume them ; Satan and his angels cast into the lake of fire.

* Finally, you have the Great White Throne judgement of all the damned, they are tossed into the Lake of Fire, God makes a new heaven and new earth and all those who were saved spent the rest of eternity with God.

Any questions?

Great post Lionking. I agree with what you said here. If you want to watch something funny, check out the movie, "Left Behind." They have the concept so convoluted and unlike what the bible says it's not even funny. The bible says that every eye will see Him coming. It's not like some super secret Christian society is only going to see Jesus coming. Every eye will see. That's where "Left Behind" got stupid with showing clothes left behind on a seat where the believer was supposedly "raptured." That made me el oh el.

[Arlos]

What's even funnier with regards to the Rapture believers is that there are actually insurance companies and lawyers who are taking advantage of it. Did you know that you can get riders inserted into your life insurance (for which you have to pay extra, mind you), that stipulate that any relatives of yours that don't get raptured will receive your life insurance benefits if YOU do? (I mean, otherwise they wouldn't pay, right, since technically you hadn't died!)

Lawyers are getting in on it from the Will angle, charging big $$$ to modify wills so that property transfer happens in case of being raptured bodily into heaven.

Sad that people/companies are parasitic enough to make a buck off that, but funny as hell that there's people stupid enough to pay them...

-Arlos

[Donnel]

lawl

[Narrock]

What's even funnier with regards to the Rapture believers is that there are actually insurance companies and lawyers who are taking advantage of it. Did you know that you can get riders inserted into your life insurance (for which you have to pay extra, mind you), that stipulate that any relatives of yours that don't get raptured will receive your life insurance benefits if YOU do? (I mean, otherwise they wouldn't pay, right, since technically you hadn't died!)

Lawyers are getting in on it from the Will angle, charging big $$$ to modify wills so that property transfer happens in case of being raptured bodily into heaven.

Sad that people/companies are parasitic enough to make a buck off that, but funny as hell that there's people stupid enough to pay them...

-Arlos

HAHAHA OMG

[Markarado]

I've always been very curious about dinosaurs.

To my understanding reptiles never stop growing as long as they live. This is correct right? As a Christian I believe that people used to live even close to 1,000 years. I don't know how non-Christians feel about this. Is there evidence supporting this?

I started thinking about this when I owned Iguana's. I had to give them up when I moved from China =( ..... Iguana's can live up to 25 years. At this age a large male can be up to 7+ feet in length. Imagine a human living 1,000 years. An Iguana would live roughly 250 years long right? If that's true, then wouldn't an Iguana grow roughly 10 times as large? Imagine 70 foot Iguana..... Dinosaur right? Imagine how large an aligator would get...

Just a thought ><

[Thon]

nobody ever lived to be 1,000. few break 100 today with the medical technology to successfully transplant human hearts. so people living in caves didn't outlive us

[Markarado]

I believe they did.

[Narrock]

I've always been very curious about dinosaurs.

To my understanding reptiles never stop growing as long as they live. This is correct right? As a Christian I believe that people used to live even close to 1,000 years. I don't know how non-Christians feel about this. Is there evidence supporting this?

I started thinking about this when I owned Iguana's. I had to give them up when I moved from China =( ..... Iguana's can live up to 25 years. At this age a large male can be up to 7+ feet in length. Imagine a human living 1,000 years. An Iguana would live roughly 250 years long right? If that's true, then wouldn't an Iguana grow roughly 10 times as large? Imagine 70 foot Iguana..... Dinosaur right? Imagine how large an aligator would get...

Just a thought ><

No, no, no Mark... you got it all wrong. Dinosaurs evolved from parakeets, not reptiles.

[Arlos]

Actually, parakeets evolved from Dinosaurs. Right animals, but you got the order backwards.

-Arlos

[Narrock]

Well I don't really believe that either.

[dammuzis]

my cheese sandwich in the fridge recently evolved in to a greenish fozzy bear

[Thon]

I believe they did.

you can believe they danced the charleston and sipped mint juleps if you want.

[Snero]

I just need confirmation on this one point

Markarado, you believe that human beings used to live to be 1000 years old in the past?

[Tikker]

I just need confirmation on this one point

Markarado, you believe that human beings used to live to be 1000 years old in the past?

old testament~


if you talk to certain christians, people also died exactly on their birthdays, and didn't live to be 655 and 3 months, just exactly 655 (that's how they come up with the world is 6500 years old. they go backwards with the ages of biblical figures, and since the bible is divine, and these people are divine, they obviously lived to be EXACTLY 655)


*655 is obviously just a number I made up to illustrate a point

[Donnel]

Tikker I don't know where you get your info from, but I don't know any creationists who think the world is EXACTLY 4004 years or EXACTLY any other number of years old.

And no we don't assume everyone died on their birthday. If genealogies are used there is obviously a margin of error. but at the most it could only be 11 months * the number of steps in the chain right? So somewhere between 100 and maybe 300 years difference.

[Tossica]

Woah... people actually believe that folks lived longer over 2000 years ago than they do today?

[Donnel]

Yes but the theory goes hand in hand with a universal flood, so of course it's bunk.

[Markarado]

Back then there was a lot more oxygen in the air. This caused everything to grow larger and live longer.

[Arlos]

Donnel, you never did answer my question as to how you think all of the geologic evidence that exists points to a 6000 year old world instead of one about 4-5 BILLION years old.

-Arlos

[Tossica]

Back then there was a lot more oxygen in the air. This caused everything to grow larger and live longer.

Hahaha.