Organized religion is...

[Durothil Skyreaver]

a complete and total farce and anyone that buys in to it is a fucking moron.

Agree 100%

Yeah, EZboard logged me out again, that was me.

[Narrock]

Ok, I get that you don't believe in a creator, not because you can disprove it (you can't), but because it is an extremely difficult concept to grasp. If you think really really hard about our existence (almost to the point of getting freaked out about it) and where the universe came from... I'm talking deep, intense thought, it's also a very difficult concept to grasp. I often gaze out at the stars, sitting on a loungechair in the backyard, trying to decipher what I'm seeing. To think that this was all started by some super cataclysmic event or explosion, is just beyond comprehension. Where did that big empty void in the sky come from? Why are there so many stars and planets? Yes, you can get into how a star is formed from a supernova, and all that, but what about even before that? How did the exact perfect formulas occur to foster life on only one planet? Are there other inhabited planets beyond the capabilities of the Hubble telescope?

To me, it is so incomprehensible to think that we are here because of a big bang, it leaves me no other choice then to believe in one almighty creator. Then I start thinking... well, what about God? Where did He come from? Did He have parents? Did God just materialize out of thin air? It's maddening to think about. But then I see all the beauty of this earth, with all the mountains and beautiful skies... the flora and fauna, the sea, the cleaving of cells that form a new life, getstation periods, children, etc. etc. etc. It's all PERFECT design. How can that kind of perfection just be the result of gases doing the right thing at the right time? It doesn't make any sense to me.

Now, as far as Christianity is concerned... yes, there are some bad Christians out there. There are Christians who you'd swear were more likely to be minions of satan, with all the atrocities they pulled throughout time. But look at the basic tenets of Christianity. Don't you think they are good moral standards to live by? They teach us to be good people, despite the extremist wackos that harbor those same beliefs and take them to convoluted extremes. Why not have a leader whose sole beliefs originate in Christianity? What is so wrong with teaching those principles to our children, be it in the home, or at school? Why not set some guidelines to live by which garner decency and taking the "high moral ground?" That's the problem I have with atheists... is that they deny teaching their children about religion, and Christianity or Judaism, then the children grow up to be non believers and choose to believe in scientific paths only.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Some of the world's *top* scientists and physicists believe in God. Stephen Hawking believes it, and so did Albert Einstein. There are lot more who believe in God. Why do they believe in God? Because there is no theory, mathematical equation or formula that can explain some of what is going on in the universe. And it's not because we just don't know yet, it's because those things will never be explained through science.
There is a cap, a ceiling, as to our comprehension. I think that was part of God's design. Only when we die, will "the veil be lifted."

[Arlos]

Ok, I get that you don't believe in a creator, not because you can disprove it (you can't), but because it is an extremely difficult concept to grasp. If you think really really hard about our existence (almost to the point of getting freaked out about it) and where the universe came from... I'm talking deep, intense thought, it's also a very difficult concept to grasp. I often gaze out at the stars, sitting on a loungechair in the backyard, trying to decipher what I'm seeing. To think that this was all started by some super cataclysmic event or explosion, is just beyond comprehension. Where did that big empty void in the sky come from? Why are there so many stars and planets? Yes, you can get into how a star is formed from a supernova, and all that, but what about even before that? How did the exact perfect formulas occur to foster life on only one planet? Are there other inhabited planets beyond the capabilities of the Hubble telescope?

Now, before I start on this, I ask you to remember that my first major was Astrophysics, so I have stuided the guts of how much of the way the universe works in significant depth. I am not going to go into vast details here, as a number of equations are, shall we say, extremely complex, not to mention, I don't remember the exact ones any more. heh.

You're right, I can in no way prove that there is no one individual creator, no more than you can prove that there IS. I want to ask you a related question, however: If you believe God created the universe, how can YOU know the mechanism by which it was done? If you accept the Genesis story as allegory (which Ganzo certainly does, as he posted here), then there is any way it could have happened. How do YOU know that God's method was NOT the "Big Bang"? That he did not set up the conditions of the newly created universe Just "SO" such that it would evolve as it has, ultimately creating the Sun, the Earth, then cyanobacteria, and eventually, through natural processes, Humans? How do you know that God didn't work through natural processes in order to cause Humanity to spring into being? Are you saying God could not work through natural process if he so chose?

As for the Universe, it would shock me if this is the only planet on which life has arisen. Even intelligent life. Given the numbers of stars similar to the Sun in this galaxy alone, and then realizing that there is a near-infinite number of other galaxies... Even just working based on mathematical probability, it is a near-certainty that life exists elsewhere. Of course, that life is almost certain to be RADICALLY different than we are, as evolution on such a hypothetical planet would likely have followed very different paths. Almost as certain is that no such intelligent life has ever come HERE. (no, I don't believe in UFOs)

But look at the basic tenets of Christianity. Don't you think they are good moral standards to live by? They teach us to be good people, despite the extremist wackos that harbor those same beliefs and take them to convoluted extremes. Why not have a leader whose sole beliefs originate in Christianity? What is so wrong with teaching those principles to our children, be it in the home, or at school? Why not set some guidelines to live by which garner decency and taking the "high moral ground?" That's the problem I have with atheists... is that they deny teaching their children about religion, and Christianity or Judaism, then the children grow up to be non believers and choose to believe in scientific paths only.

Yes, some of the basic tenets of Christianity are good and noble ideals. My point is, however, that they are by no means UNIQUE to Christianity. Nearly every religion has good, sound, moral teachings bound up in the faith-specific teachings taht differentiate 1 faith from another. If someone is good and moral, what does it matter what religion they are, or even if they follow no religion whatsoever? Good is good and bad is bad. Are those extremist whacko christians you mention "better" than other extremist whackos simply because they cloak themselves in the mantle of Christianity? Are good people who happen to be, say, Buddhists, Hindu, Wiccan or even Athiest less good simply because they do not? I say, quite emphatically, "NO" to both questions.

That is, in part, why I am so against using public arenas for the teaching of ANY religion. I would be just as against as public schools favoring Buddhism, Judaism, or even my own faith. (yes, you heard that right). By the Constitution of this nation, no one religion is supposed to be held above any other; all are supposed to be equal to each other, regardless of how many practitioners any given religion might have. At a public institution, you have no idea of what mixture of faiths might be present in a given classroom. Some of those faiths may believe VERY different tenets than are found in Christianity. Teaching Christian tenets in that class would be tantamount to telling the people of those faiths that what they believe isn't as right or as good, and they have JUST as much right to their beliefs as you do to yours.

The same thing applies to having a leader who acts solely from Christian principles: Many of the less-basic tenets of Christianity I either don't believe in, or disagree with rather strongly. If he is enable to enact laws based on those tenets, I am then forced to live in ways that violate MY faith. Your "moral high ground" and my "moral high ground" are 2 very different places, and for you to expect me to be happy living by yours, or me to expect you to be happy living under mine is unrealistic at best. Please note that the same thing would apply to a politician who wanted to legislate Buddhist principles, Hindu principles, Wiccan principles, etc. The only truly fair method, since no one religion is supposed to be held above any other, is to leave religion out of legislation entirely.

Also, just as you have the right to raise your children as you see fit, Athiests and people of ALL religions have the right to raise theirs. You may disagree with how they raise their kids, but likewise, I am sure they'll disagree with how you raise yours. That is, however, perfectly fine to me, AND is consistent with the Constitution. Not to mention, heh, it's NEVER known for children to end up with faiths different from their parents. rofl. It's not exactly uncommon for kids of religious parents to end up athiest, and visa versa.

I actually do agree with you in one of your final statement, that there are questions about the human condition that are outside the realm of science. Why are we here, do we have a purpose, etc. However, they are not questions unique to any religion; such questions go back to the very beginning of humanity. If your religion provides answers to them that works for you, great, wonderful, congratulations. However, do be aware that those are not the ONLY answers for those questions. Other religions have their own answers which are JUST as valid, and people may even find philosophical answers to those questions that have nothing to do with ANY religion. If someone finds answers that work for them, then that's great for them, regardless of the source of those answers, and whether or not I agree with them.

-Arlos

[Tikker]

here's a question for you then mindia


why do you believe in something that cannot be proven?

[DESX]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Some of the world's *top* scientists and physicists believe in God. Stephen Hawking believes it, and so did Albert Einstein. There are lot more who believe in God. Why do they believe in God? Because there is no theory, mathematical equation or formula that can explain some of what is going on in the universe. And it's not because we just don't know yet, it's because those things will never be explained through science.
There is a cap, a ceiling, as to our comprehension. I think that was part of God's design. Only when we die, will the "veil be lifted."

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.
Albert Einstein, "Science, Philosophy and Religion: a Symposium", 1941

If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts.
Albert Einstein, (attributed)

[Yamori]

Christianity teaches that our bodies are sin, that knowledge is evil, that pleasure is sin, that reason [pointed towards faith and commandments at the very least] is evil. The latter, perhaps is the gravest blow against human history, as even thought itself can be sin under such philosophy.

These are all things we need to survive, to prosper, and to be happy on Earth. Inevitably the basic doctrine of Christianity is the destruction of Earth for the reward of Heaven. The immolation of the life for an invisible dream.

Even putting aside the cultural history bathed in blood, all of the ridiculous social rules of leviticus/ect, the rampant examples of pointless cruelty, and all the scientific incompatability, It's not really a noble philosophy at all. In laymen's terms, it fucks people up.


I even wrote a poem about it!!!:

They say;
To Live is Evil
And I ask;
Has only the Devil Lived?

Dude im a genius

[Tossica]

I never said I don't believe in a creator. I have no idea how any of the things we experience on a daily basis are possible and I would never claim otherwise. What I AM saying is that if someone or some group of people are telling you they have all the answers and all you have to do is follow this set of rules, they are full of shit. No matter how much they "believe", they don't know any more than you do. ANY speculation as to what might be happening is just that, speculation. Therefore, religion as an organization is nothing more than a group of people agreeing on a vision for the purpose of simplifying everything and making it easier for the common man to feel good about their existence. With a sense that at least someone has figured it all out for them, they can rest easier and don't have to put much effort in to searching for the answers themselves.

[Narrock]

I'm very impressed with the responses in this thread. Arlos, you should be a professional writer, and what you just wrote does make a lot of sense. This line, "Not to mention, heh, it's NEVER known for children to end up with faiths different from their parents" had me ROFL'ing too. Here I am, of a different sect of Christianity, than my parents.

Anyway, to answer Tikker's question... I don't know, man. It just *feels* right even though it cannot be proven. It's as if the source of my *feeling* about it is being fed to me through some sort of strange telepathic medium... like God is talking to me, guiding me. Now this has nothing to do with space ships, foil hats, and crazed lunacy... it's a heartfelt gut reaction I have about God.

I do not use religion as a crutch. It has some important tenets that are important in my life. I fear God, and I have a conscious that is constantly guiding me to be careful about what I do, and what I say. Often I feel bad about what I did or said to hurt somebody, and I wonder if it's all going to be forgiven. In that respect, I think religion (Christianity) is a good thing. If more people believed in, and feared God, then I really believe there would be less atrocities committed, because people will think about what they are about to do before they actually do it. That's why I think very highly of Christians who go on evangelism trips and missions, to spread the good news of the gospel to people who don't know it. Somebody can say, "well what about the God-fearing people who commit travesties on other people?" Well, that's a good point too, and all I can say to that is, God help them... they used God in a perverted way and they will be called on it eventually.

[Griever]

See this is how mature adults discuss and debate. It actually made me read this whole thread and has gotten me thinking about some of the points you guys have brought up.

[The Kizzy]

I believe in God, But I also believe in evolution to an extent. I believe that nature evolves things to make them stronger. I work for a land developer, and I sell lots in a subdivision. When I take clients on tour, I point out the trees. We have live oaks here, and about 15 years ago the live oaks started getting sick and dying off. What did Mother Nature do? It inbred the live oaks with the spanish oaks and now there is a hybrid tree. That is evolution.

This may be coincidence, but everyone I have known to have a baby in the last year has had big babies. I'm talking 9 pound babies and larger. Children are taller, smarter, and stronger than what I remember.

When I look at my son, I know there is a God. He is a perfect angel. I'm not doubting that he exists, I'm just saying that I think evolution helped him along.

[Tikker]

In that respect, I think religion (Christianity) is a good thing. If more people believed in, and feared God, then I really believe there would be less atrocities committed, because people will think about what they are about to do before they actually do it. That's why I think very highly of Christians who go on evangelism trips and missions, to spread the good news of the gospel to people who don't know it. Somebody can say, "well what about the God-fearing people who commit travesties on other people?"

this is the part I don't understand.


why does there have to be a god in order for people to have a conscience?

do you believe that without your god, man would just be like any other animal?

[Gidan]

I could be wrong, but I don’t think he is saying that only those who fear god have conscience. I think what he is saying is that, if the people who were committing these atrocities believed in and feared god, they wouldn't be committing them. I don’t necessarily believe this, but I think that’s what he is saying.

IMO the people who are committing these atrocities actually believe they are doing right. Some or many of them may believe they are doing the work of their god(s). Others may believe they are doing what is best for the world and the people in it. Look at some of the worst things to happen in our history, many if not most of the horrible things have been done were carried out by people who were doing what they believed was right and those people who were apposed to it were the ones doing wrong.

[Arlos]

OK, let me discuss evolution and its intersection with Christian belief then.

OK, Mindia (and Kizzy), in order to discuss this, I need to make sure you have at least a little bit of background in how DNA works in general. Note that there's a lot of detail I am leaving out, but it's not that important for this particular discussion.

OK, ALL DNA is made up of a sequence of 4 different nucleotides: Guanine, Adenine, Cytosene and Thymine. (abbreviated as G, A, C, T) Each strand of DNA in our cell is made up of millions of those 4 nucleotides strung together, just in different orders.

Now, the purpose of all DNA is to control the production of molecules the body uses, mostly different proteins. Proteins are all made up of Amino Acids connected together, and there's about 20 different Amino Acids.

When it comes time for the cell to make a protein, what happens is the following: The DNA strand that controls creating that protein unzips itself in the spot that has the information for creating that protein, and then creates a mirror image of the DNA sequence by creating something called Messenger-RNA, or m-RNA. That m-RNA, which is an exact mirror image copy of the DNA section, is moved to the spot in the cell where proteins and other such molecules are are built, piece by piece.

Now, how it makes the protein is that every group of 3 nucleotides together is a code for a specific amino acid. Like a GCT together will tell the construction section to put together 1 kind of amino acid there, and a ATC would tell it to put a different kind of Amino acid, etc. There are some cases where 2 different sequences of nucleotides will generate the same Amino acid, but that's neither here nor there.

Now, the important upshot of this is that if you change just 1 nucleotide in DNA, from GCT to GCC, say, it will make a different amino acid as part of the construction of that protein. The change of as little as that 1 amino acid can cause major differences in the protein (or other chemical) that gets built as a result. So, something as simple as changing 1 T to a C in a DNA strand of millions of such bases can have dramatic effects.

What causes such a change, you might ask? Well, to Science, that is what is known as a Mutation. What can cause mutation? Well, all sorts of things, including radiation, chemicals, and even just imperfect copying when the cell is created. Cosmic Rays, which are incredibly energetic particles that constantly bombard the earth from space can also do it, if they happen to hit exactly the right spot.

OK, with me so far, I hope? Up til now it's just been Biology, and as far as I know, there's no dispute of any kind with the how-to of all this.

Now, as for evolution, lets look for a minute at the transition early apes made from walking like a gorilla or chimp to walking upright like us, which is the creation of Hominids. What Evolution Science merely says is that at some point, a sequence of mutations over the course of a long period of time ended up creating that change. Each one of those mutation might have been as small as that T to C change I mentioned before. One thing science can never definitively say is what CAUSED that change. We can guess that it might have been, say, a cosmic ray, but we don't know, and can never know.

Now, Mindia, if you were to say that God willed that cosmic ray to strike that one specific early ape to make that one specific mutation to that ape's DNA, I could not in any way prove you wrong, nor would I even attempt to try. Indeed, you could argue that every single one of the near-infinite number of mutations and changes that were necessary to go from the earliest primitive cyanobacteria to humans happened because God specifically willed them to happen, and neither I nor Science could in any way prove you wrong. I may disagree with you, as is my inalienable right as a thinking person, but I could never prove you wrong, nor would I even try. Science can say nothing, because such a question is outside the realm of science. Science merely states that such a mutation DID occur, it says nothing on WHY.

And that is how evolution and the belief that God created all life and Humans can easily peacefully co-exist. I know you believe that God created humans as well as all other life, but can you know HOW He did it? As I said, would you claim that God could not have worked via natural processses if He did so choose? Just because a process is natural doesn't mean each step of it could not have occured as a direct result of the will of God, yes?

Indeed, if you look at it that way, it actually opens up a potentially very exciting thought. You believe God gave humankind intelligence for a reason, correct? Well, what if one of the reasons He did so, was so that we might someday be able to figure out the mechanism by which He created us and everything else, and marvel at its beauty and innate fundamental simplicity and elegance? Can you deny that that is at least a possibility?

Honestly, nothing in Evolution is or should be in any way inconcsistent with the belief that Human beings, and all other life, are as we are because God created us that way. Indeed, I would think that denying the possibility that He could have used entirely natural processes (guided by his will) in that creation would seem to be putting limits on God, which makes no sense to me for a faith that believes in his omnipotence.

Now, I personally don't believe in the Christian God, or that He was behind the creation of humanity. But that's my PERSONAL faith and belief, it has nothing whatsoever to do with Science. You, obviously, believe otherwise, and that is your absolute and inalienable right. I may disagree with you, and you may disagree with me, but neither of us can, in any way, PROVE the other wrong. But what is important to remember, is that our disagreement is in a realm that is apart from Science. Science deals with fact, obvservation, and how-to. It can NEVER discuss "why".

My parents, both devout Catholics, believe along these lines. They believe, completely, that God created the Earth, Humanity and all other life. However, they believe He worked through natural processes to do so, using the mechanism of Evolution, guided by His will, to bring about Humanity. Indeed, they feel that being able to see and understand part of how He went about that creation INCREASES their appreciation of God, not decreases it.

Now, obviously, it is your right to believe otherwise, but do you at least admit the possibility that they might be right? Can you see how their appreciation of the beauty of those natural processes and the belief that God caused them to happen could increase their regard for Him, not decrease it?

Sorry if I'm long-winded in this, it's a complex topic and I'm trying to be as careful as possible in how I state it. A lot of it has come from talks I've had with my parents over the years, and it's kinda hard to distill years into even a lengthy post, but there you have it. So, hopefully you now can understand why I feel that people of Christian faith should feel no threat from Evolution; that both science and faith can co-exist quite happily, with 1 increasing the appreciation for the other.

-Arlos

[Arlos]

IMO the people who are committing these atrocities actually believe they are doing right.

There's a reason why someone coined the phrase "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions"...

-Arlos

[Yamori]

I've never understood the notion of fearing god. Fear is the emotional response to something dangerous - to something that is inherently wrong and destructive to you. Not really the attitude I'd want to hold toward the divine. If one's highest goal is to have an afterlife either in god's realm, with god, becoming one with god, or whatever (depending on view), fear really isn't the appropriate feeling to have towards god: who is your ultimate purpose in life - no?

The only context in which fear of god makes sense is the model of acting in Christian virtue to avoid hell as the primary motivation of one's actions - rather than to reach/obtain heaven. Considering this to be the case, it becomes problematic in another way: is a soul really worthy of heaven if it's prime motive is fear of pain, rather than love of the good and the divine?

[Narrock]

I've never understood the notion of fearing god. Fear is the emotional response to something dangerous - to something that is inherently wrong and destructive to you. Not really the attitude I'd want to hold toward the divine. If one's highest goal is to have an afterlife either in god's realm, with god, becoming one with god, or whatever (depending on view), fear really isn't the appropriate feeling to have towards god: who is your ultimate purpose in life - no?

The only context in which fear of god makes sense is the model of acting in Christian virtue to avoid hell as the primary motivation of one's actions - rather than to reach/obtain heaven. Considering this to be the case, it becomes problematic in another way: is a soul really worthy of heaven if it's prime motive is fear of pain, rather than love of the good and the divine?

I think it stems from doing what is right and what is wrong, Yam. It started in the Garden of Eden. God gave us the free will to make choices. Some of the choices we make in life are bad decisions, and it could have some negative repercussions some day. That's where the fear comes in. So, hopefully, we will make good decisions in lieu of a possible severe punishment for making bad decisions and choices.

[The Kizzy]

Arlos, you said "I feel that people of Christian faith should feel no threat from Evolution; that both science and faith can co-exist quite happily, with 1 increasing the appreciation for the other. "

How is that different from what I said? Just worded differently.

Thanks for the refresher on DNA, it is what my specialty is in (genetics, if I ever graduate) its more complex than that, but still, a very good explanation for a beginner to grasp.

[Narrock]

Arlos, you said "I feel that people of Christian faith should feel no threat from Evolution; that both science and faith can co-exist quite happily, with 1 increasing the appreciation for the other. "

How is that different from what I said? Just worded differently.

Thanks for the refresher on DNA, it is what my specialty is in (genetics, if I ever graduate) its more complex than that, but still, a very good explanation for a beginner to grasp.

Yeah, that was a great explanation of DNA.

[Arlos]

Mindia, I'm honestly curious to hear your reply to the rest of that post, if you're willing to give it.

-Arlos

[The Kizzy]

Arlos, Can you please answer my PM I sent you? Thank you.

[Narrock]

Mindia, I'm honestly curious to hear your reply to the rest of that post, if you're willing to give it.

-Arlos

Your knowledge and explanation of DNA was great. I'll take your word for it that DNA works as you described it. As far as cell mutations go... that's where I have trouble with believing some of it. Why did some cells mutate (allegedly, gorilla into human) and some didn't (the existence of apes AND humans coexisting simultaneously)? Why didn't the rest of the species evolve? In theories such as these, we would see hints of humans starting to evolve or morph into yet another species. There is no proof of this in the fossil record. "Lucy" doesn't even prove this. Humans have not changed in thousands of years according to archaeological discoveries of human skeletons. Height is not proof of an evolutionary process either, imo.

[Arlos]

Well, remember, Gorillas didn't exist back then any more than humans did. There was a completely different animal to which we can both trace our ancestry. What could easily have happened (I don't know or guarantee that this IS how it happened mind you, just that it's plausible), is that 1 animal in one location had a mutation that would lead toward Hominid-ism, it had offspring that shared that change, and eventually one of its descendants had another mutation that would lead towards hominidism, etc. Somewhere else on the planet where that same species lived, some animal had a very different mutation, one that would lead toward Gorilla-ism. It had offspring that shared that change, etc. etc. etc.

Humans in no way descended from modern Gorillas; what happened is that we started from the same point (the same ancestor species which is long-since extinct), and diverged further and further from each other as time went on. Also, try and keep in mind, that evolution is something that takes literally thousands of generations to show a transition from one species to another. Homo Sapiens are long-lived enough that they simply have not been around anywhere near long enough to show significant levels of species drift. That would take millions and millions of years; we've been around for well less than 100,000 years.

As for Lucy, there's no arguing that she is a Hominid, and that she definitely looks to be an intermediate point between early apes and modern humans. Ape-like skull, brain, etc, but skeleton far more like humans, etc. What has come up for argument recently, though, is whether or not she necessarily is a human ancestor. The wife of the guy that discovered Lucy, herself an archaeologist, recently unearthed a skeleton of a nearly identical age that ALSO looks to be an intermediate stage, but is a very different species. It has human-like features that Lucy lacks, and visa versa as well. The upshot is, it showed that hominid evolution was not a straight-line affair as had been previously believed, and that until further evidence comes along, we don't know one way or another which one of those 2 species is our ancestor, or if indeed it is some other species we haven't discovered yet.

I'd like to go back here to your question of: "Why did some cells mutate and some didn't?" If you believe (as I know you do) that God caused Humans to be created, and all of the other animals as well, could not that be an answer that works for you? Those mutations happened because God willed them to happen that way, because he wanted to create humans and he wanted to create Gorillas, and those were necessary steps in that process, perhaps? That is, as I said in the previous post, the combination of Evolution as a process combined with it being the will of God for Humankind to come into being.

Now, I'll repeat, I don't believe that myself, personally, but my parents certainly do. Can you deny the possibility that that is the case?

-Arlos

[Thon]

thousands of years is nothing. take all of human history, all the time we've been writing stuff down. now multiply that by one million, and add a half billion. now you have a vague idea of how unimaginably old the earth is.

evolution and mutation DOES occur, it's been witnessed on a small scale. pretty much EVERYBODY accepts that. what they don't accept is that we came from apes millions of years ago. if something happens on a small scale in the timeframe of decades, imagine what little small changes will add up to over the course of billions of years

natural evolution of humanity is now out of the question. we can actually ressurect people if they havn't been dead long enough for their brain to be completely killed from lack of oxygen through breathing. if someone is so weak that they would normally have died out via natural selection we can keep them alive. we could even help people procreate that have already died through cloning or invitro-fertilization, as long as we have their intact DNA

if you need evidence of mutation look at the baby that was just born with THREE ARMS. that's a mutation, a random change in the blueprint of a species. some changes to DNA are helpful, some arn't. some are visible, some arn't. how our DNA is arranged determines everything, if a small change is enough to give us a third arm. what kind of change does it require to give us wings? the genetic difference between us and chimpanzee's iirc is about 2% or less. it's pretty safe to say that recently(in terms of the age of the earth), we had a common ancestor. if it was 5-6 million years ago, that's about a thousand times as long as humans have been keeping any kind of records.

as for the fossil record, the conditions required for fossilization are pretty rare. there are probably millions of species we'll never hear about because none have been preserved, or were and never will be found. to expect a step-by-step picture of how life evolved from amino acids and single cells, to land dwelling creatures is a pipe dream. we can at most expect to know about a fraction of a percent of the species that have risen and fallen on this planet

[dammuzis]

"fear of god" is misinterpreted

remember this is king james were talking about . words change meanings

fear in this context is "hold in awe"

personally i beleive G-D spoke the universe into existence by using a math

maybe quantum algebra?

the answer either way is 42


i need some sleep

[Narrock]

Arlos wrote:

Well, remember, Gorillas didn't exist back then any more than humans did. There was a completely different animal to which we can both trace our ancestry. What could easily have happened (I don't know or guarantee that this IS how it happened mind you, just that it's plausible), is that 1 animal in one location had a mutation that would lead toward Hominid-ism, it had offspring that shared that change, and eventually one of its descendants had another mutation that would lead towards hominidism, etc. Somewhere else on the planet where that same species lived, some animal had a very different mutation, one that would lead toward Gorilla-ism. It had offspring that shared that change, etc. etc. etc.

Humans in no way descended from modern Gorillas; what happened is that we started from the same point (the same ancestor species which is long-since extinct), and diverged further and further from each other as time went on. Also, try and keep in mind, that evolution is something that takes literally thousands of generations to show a transition from one species to another. Homo Sapiens are long-lived enough that they simply have not been around anywhere near long enough to show significant levels of species drift. That would take millions and millions of years; we've been around for well less than 100,000 years.

Ok, so if I'm hearing you correctly... what you're saying is that apes and humans come from a common ancestor, but that somewhere down the line there was a mutation that affected the species differently, whereby one species evolved into apes, and the other one, humans. I understand what you're saying if this is the case (not that I believe it though). That goes against other theories that say man evolved from apes, which is even harder to believe since there are no "missing links." I still have a hard time believing in even the split, because that means we are all just God's scientific experiment. The bible says man was formed in God's image. So that would be like saying God evolved from something else too? This is all so very confusing. It's an easier concept to grasp to just think in terms of "God created us..." and call it good. lol