Can we escape The Treadmill model

[Lyion]

Is there a future alternative to MMORPGs that are level based? Is there a way to create a fun, dynamic world with challenges and quests that do not revolve around equipment and experience?

I'm at a point where I have no desire to ever play a game where the number 1-100 is appended to the side of my name as an indicator of time and achievement.

It seems most Fantasy MMORPGs have lifted the Dungeons & Dragons level mentality as a way of keeping customers. Essentially copying what EQ copied from Gary Gygax's Pen and Paper games.

Ultima Online had a nice system, but it was overtly simplistic and relied much too much on macroing/doing the same thing over and over, which to me isn't much better than levels.

I think the biggest problem with all the upcoming MMORPGs is they are simply repackaging whats already been done before, instead of taking bold leaps forward.

Things I'd like to see done in an MMORPG:

Perma Death.

PVP with meaning, and results that matter in a world

Long quests with game world impact, and not small generic mission format

Random Skill advancement that has nothing to do with time played.

Real Factions that matter.

Real Gameworld events that matter

Alignments that matter

I'm sure none of this will come around for another generation or two of MMORPGs, but I hope more companies will have the guts to think outside the box and make games that are not copycats of the levelworlds many of us have no desire to do again.

[Tikker]

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[Tossica]

I spent months on characters in D&D back in the day and when they died, I was bummed but you just reroll.

[The Kizzy]

OK Im going to try to sound intelleigent here, even though I haven't had my coffee yet.

What is the purpose of a mmorpg if you don't have levels. No matter what way they go about tracking your progress, you have to advance, and that would be levels.

IMO the purpose of any game is to reach the end or near end, or high end, what ever you want to call it.

I really think WoW did a pretty good job. For instance, at level 12, the paladins can start a quest that allows them to EARN the ressurection spell. Its a pretty neat story line. Its not like Hey Im level 12 time to go buy my spells, you actually have to earn this one.

I don't know, WoW has really put the fun back in gaming for me. Something that EQ lost about a year ago.

[Martrae]

Horizons actually had most of that...too bad they screwed the pooch on development and rushed the game out.

[Lyion]

Adventure, fame, notoriety, accomplishments have NOTHING to do with levels.

Levels usually pertain to timesinks, which is the whole problem I personally have with the regurgitated AD&D graphical 3D worlds we call MMORPGs.

My best times in EQ were epic encounters with FOW, Sanctuary, and Euphoria. That had zero to do with levelling. Levelling by and large sucked ass, both in EQ and DAOC for me.

Thats the whole problem with the genre. Its all about levels, and not about important things.

Yes, there should be means of improving, but levels are not it.

What level was Launcelot? What level was Elric?

Levels are a poor design tool, allowing mediocre games that are supposed to be world simulations to have time sinks for thousands upon thousands of people.

The purpose of an MMORPG for me is for it to be a fun escape. To me risk, reward, and dynamic events make that so.

Levels are a design tool to allow for mass populizing of games, with little actual dynamic fun.

Perma death gives one real fear. That early 'I'm going to lose my corpse' fear EQ had that made the game so much more fun.

Dynamic events make it so things change constantly, and what you do matters. If people have no effect on the world, it might as well be a single player game, in my opinion. A

OK Im going to try to sound intelleigent here, even though I haven't had my coffee yet.

What is the purpose of a mmorpg if you don't have levels. No matter what way they go about tracking your progress, you have to advance, and that would be levels.

IMO the purpose of any game is to reach the end or near end, or high end, what ever you want to call it.

[The Kizzy]

ok, but in order to have spent that time with FOW, Sanctuary, and Euphoria you had to be a certain level.

They cant very well tote a level 1 to a Naggy raid.

I guess I looked at my levels as a time to get to know the poeple I played with. I always roleplayed and had a good time. The best time ever for me in EQ was playing in WK, "I'm sitting on a tee pee, wanna touch my black fleshy orb?"

[Lyion]

That's the whole problem. You need to treadmill and get 4.2 billion experience and level to get to the fun stuff.

You create a caste system of haves and have nots based on time played. Yes, levelling can be fun, but it still creates a hierarchical system, and lowers the game to being time sinks, versus dynamic, fun, and immersive.

I want the fun stuff, without the treadmills.

Dynamic, dangerous, challenging, changing where things matter. The old games are simply single player worlds with a database to track your stuff and level. New games that do the same thing are retreads, in my opinion.

ok, but in order to have spent that time with FOW, Sanctuary, and Euphoria you had to be a certain level.
"

[Tacks]

Not to sound like a smartass Lyion, but I wouldn't want to play that MMORPG you suggest...

It just sounds like a huge game of Morrowind online. Boring.

[Lyion]

This is just what I want. I'm sure many people like the level/AD&D Model, and that's cool. Each to their own.

I don't want Morrowind Online, even though its a very good game.
Morrowind is a static single player world, with respawns and levels, you could get ludicrously powerful, but there is no dyamic events.

I dont necessarily want to be ludicrously powerful, I just want immersion and fun without the level based caste system.

I like Perma Death, as it adds danger and realism, but I'm sure many wouldn't, even in a non treadmill game.

Not to sound like a smartass Lyion, but I wouldn't want to play that MMORPG you suggest...

It just sounds like a huge game of Morrowind online. Boring.

[Menelvir]

Elric of Melniboné

CLERIC/DRUID: 10th level cleric/5th level druid
FIGHTER: 15th level fighter
MAGIC-USER/ILLUSIONIST: 19th level magic-user/10th level illusionist
THIEF/ASSASSIN: 10th level assassin


I couldn't find stats on Lancelot Du Lac. I may suck at using search
engines, but at least I'm not in Elric's shoes -- 5 levels of Druid?
What a waste.

[Lyion]

Elric of Melniboné

CLERIC/DRUID: 10th level cleric/5th level druid
FIGHTER: 15th level fighter
MAGIC-USER/ILLUSIONIST: 19th level magic-user/10th level illusionist
THIEF/ASSASSIN: 10th level assassin


I couldn't find stats on Lancelot Du Lac. I may suck at using search
engines, but at least I'm not in Elric's shoes -- 5 levels of Druid?
What a waste.

AD&D != EQ levels

[Project DARC]

i miss my old first ed deity and demigods book

[Lyion]

i miss my old first ed deity and demigods book

My first edition books got killed when water flooded my garage, and dumbass that I was at the time I had my old boxes in there.

[Minrott]

Agree perma death would be a nice addition. People would take the necessary precaution and planning to accomplish world changing events rather than simply taking 100 well equipped players and throwing them at a boss mob.

Also, it would mean that accomplishing such world changing events would add to ones noteriety for having the balls to do something that might end their characters life.

[The Kizzy]

Agree perma death would be a nice addition. People would take the necessary precaution and planning to accomplish world changing events rather than simply taking 100 well equipped players and throwing them at a boss mob.

Also, it would mean that accomplishing such world changing events would add to ones noteriety for having the balls to do something that might end their characters life.

Hmmmm thats interesting............

I will use this idea in my new online game I am creating named NeverRest (r with a circle around it)

[Zanathar]

Adventure, fame, notoriety, accomplishments have NOTHING to do with levels.

Actually, not true. I refer you to Audy Murphy, who was the most decorated soldier of World War 2. Now, he got his medal of Honor for gunning down 40 germans single handedly in one fight by standing on top of a Tank. You can say: Luck, but: He had to have skill and experience to keep his cool and not die. No unskilled inexperienced person could have done what he did that day. You can ascribe only so much to luck, the rest is all talent and you get talent by doing the same thing over and over again until you get really good at what you do.

You can argue that this is what levels (or skill points depending on the system) are. If you did, you would be correct. I defy you to take some untrained undisciplined 17 year old and stand him on top of a tank and do the same thing. It wont happen.

Levels usually pertain to timesinks, which is the whole problem I personally have with the regurgitated AD&D graphical 3D worlds we call MMORPGs.

I refer you to the fact that to get good at something you must sacrifice something, you dont win a marathon with out training for it, you dont win sword fights with out training for it, you dont win spelling bees without practicing them. To practice and practice is a time sink. Time sinks happen and its all in real life.

My best times in EQ were epic encounters with FOW, Sanctuary, and Euphoria. That had zero to do with levelling. Levelling by and large sucked ass, both in EQ and DAOC for me.

Thats the whole problem with the genre. Its all about levels, and not about important things.

Yes, there should be means of improving, but levels are not it.

What level was Launcelot? What level was Elric?

To get to Euphoria's level of play you need to be good enough to join us. We dont take just anyone off the street with no AAs and no Raid experience, it isnt worth it to us because we might actually be relying on them to keep us alive and I dont want my evening ruined because someone doesnt want to commit to a game as much as I do. What do you think it should be if not levels? Skill points? Its the same thing really, only applied differently. The shooter that spends 3 hours a day practicing at the range is going to be better than the person that never practices. Just a fact of life. Levels works as a viable real world translation.

What level was Lancelot? He was the best knight of europe. No one could beat him in combat. So, what level was he? In Lancelot's world there were no levels per se, but there was levels of ability and his was the highest of them all: IE We would consider him to be a grand master, to put it into D&D terms he was probably level 50 or higher, and in EQ Terms? He was level 75. Elric was the same way. But, remember we didnt see them grow up and learn their skills which we do in EQ, they were introduced to us as full masters of their craft. No one in a new world (EQ, WoW, D&D) should ever start out as a master of their craft, there would be no point (If a player character) to playing the game and no way to seperate the people that are dedicated from the people that are not.

Levels are a poor design tool, allowing mediocre games that are supposed to be world simulations to have time sinks for thousands upon thousands of people.

The purpose of an MMORPG for me is for it to be a fun escape. To me risk, reward, and dynamic events make that so.

In one sentence you just said why the world you want you can not have in a persistant online gaming world. Only you didnt realize it. Who is going to be the earthshakers? The people that take part in that dynamic event? The bum in the street or the donald trumps of the world? Donald Trumps obviously because their level of dedication, wealth and drive is higher than yours. If you want a fun escape that requires no work, go play .. er... everything requires work actually. Dodge ball is fun because you are the last person out, not the first person.... Racing against other people is fun because you will be first not last... etc.. ad infinitum.

Levels are a design tool to allow for mass populizing of games, with little actual dynamic fun.

Perma death gives one real fear. That early 'I'm going to lose my corpse' fear EQ had that made the game so much more fun.

Dynamic events make it so things change constantly, and what you do matters. If people have no effect on the world, it might as well be a single player game, in my opinion.

Dynamic events that effect a game world is incredibly complex. So much so that you do not even realize it. For example, the only place that you can obtain yittrium ore is overrun by ogres and is then destroyed... you need this ore to complete a quest... however because of the dynamic world you can not longer do the quest because world conditions have changed. Realistic, yes, fun? No. Why? You may have spent hours doing that quest up to that point and now... you cant. You just wasted someone else's time... why will they continue to play the game that they cant spend all day playing if the things they are working for get removed from the game as part of the natural order? They wont.

Dynamic worlds are great for small groups of people that are friends. But they are not good for worlds that have thousands of people playing in them and these people can not play every day in them. The kind of world you want? It exists, but not in the computer world, it exists in the real world... go play that for a while and then tell me about time sinks (Going to the same job every day for years and not able to get ahead, for example...).

[DangerPaul]

Adventure, fame, notoriety, accomplishments have NOTHING to do with levels.

To get to Euphoria's level of play you need to be good enough to join us. We dont take just anyone off the street with no AAs and no Raid experience, it isnt worth it to us because we might actually be relying on them to keep us alive and I dont want my evening ruined because someone doesnt want to commit to a game as much as I do.

You obviously didn't play all of last summer when any cleric was allowed in, as long as they were 60+.
sorry for the hijack

[Tossica]

Man, you are full of hot air Morg.

Regardless of how things relate to RL, spending years doing the same shit over and over again in a GAME is not fun.

I want to stand on top of the tank and kill 40 Germans RIGHT NOW. I don't want to pay $13 a month for 2 years to be able to do it.

It's a GAME remember?

Things I want in RL, I am willing to work for but I sure as hell am no longer willing to pay to "work" in a fucking game.

[Treehorn]

Dynamic events that effect a game world is incredibly complex. So much so that you do not even realize it. For example, the only place that you can obtain yittrium ore is overrun by ogres and is then destroyed... you need this ore to complete a quest... however because of the dynamic world you can not longer do the quest because world conditions have changed. Realistic, yes, fun? No. Why? You may have spent hours doing that quest up to that point and now... you cant. You just wasted someone else's time... why will they continue to play the game that they cant spend all day playing if the things they are working for get removed from the game as part of the natural order? They wont.

Why not just kill the ogres and take their ore? Besides, Ogres are dumb. Just get yourself something to lure them away from their mines, and then take what you need when they are gone.

Any shiny or edible object will do, really. I find gnomes to be the ideal bait.
They are compact for easy handling and storage (you can fit several into a good pack), they are considered prized morsels for many races (which also makes them highly tradable), their bald scalps have highly reflective properties, and they make good, er..."companions" for those long journeys and voyages where more suitable "company" will be in short supply.

[Zanathar]

Adventure, fame, notoriety, accomplishments have NOTHING to do with levels.

To get to Euphoria's level of play you need to be good enough to join us. We dont take just anyone off the street with no AAs and no Raid experience, it isnt worth it to us because we might actually be relying on them to keep us alive and I dont want my evening ruined because someone doesnt want to commit to a game as much as I do.

You obviously didn't play all of last summer when any cleric was allowed in, as long as they were 60+.
sorry for the hijack

I was on a break last summer....

[The Kizzy]

Man, I knew I should have applied to Euphoria when I had the chance.

[Zanathar]

Man, you are full of hot air Morg.

Regardless of how things relate to RL, spending years doing the same shit over and over again in a GAME is not fun.

I want to stand on top of the tank and kill 40 Germans RIGHT NOW. I don't want to pay $13 a month for 2 years to be able to do it.

It's a GAME remember?

Things I want in RL, I am willing to work for but I sure as hell am no longer willing to pay to "work" in a fucking game.

Wuwu! Go ahead, go play counter strike then. You wont kill 40 toons standing on top of a tank in counter strike though on day one. Why? Well, you still need to learn the game. Any game that does not require a bit of skill is called: Board Games. If you want to play a game that doesnt require any kind of skill or dedication then go play monopoly... That is your kind of game.

But the reason you dont play monopoly is because: its a bored game.

[Tossica]

Wuwu! Go ahead, go play counter strike then. You wont kill 40 toons standing on top of a tank in counter strike though on day one. Why? Well, you still need to learn the game. Any game that does not require a bit of skill is called: Board Games. If you want to play a game that doesnt require any kind of skill or dedication then go play monopoly... That is your kind of game.

But the reason you dont play monopoly is because: its a bored game.

Nah, I have lots of fun playing other games. I like games I can pause, play for 15 minutes here or there or put away and pick up again like 6 months later and not have to play catch up.

[Zanchief]

Any game that does not require a bit of skill is called: Board Games. If you want to play a game that doesnt require any kind of skill or dedication then go play monopoly... That is your kind of game.

WTF I'll own you at Trivial Pursuit.