Can we escape The Treadmill model

[DangerPaul]

Man, you are full of hot air Morg.

Regardless of how things relate to RL, spending years doing the same shit over and over again in a GAME is not fun.

I want to stand on top of the tank and kill 40 Germans RIGHT NOW. I don't want to pay $13 a month for 2 years to be able to do it.

It's a GAME remember?

Things I want in RL, I am willing to work for but I sure as hell am no longer willing to pay to "work" in a fucking game.

Wuwu! Go ahead, go play counter strike then. You wont kill 40 toons standing on top of a tank in counter strike though on day one. Why? Well, you still need to learn the game. Any game that does not require a bit of skill is called: Board Games. If you want to play a game that doesnt require any kind of skill or dedication then go play monopoly... That is your kind of game.

But the reason you dont play monopoly is because: its a bored game.

I didn't think EQ required any sort of skill, so Everquest is a board game?

[DangerPaul]

Man, I knew I should have applied to Euphoria when I had the chance.

I would have chased you off in about 37 seconds~

[The Kizzy]

LOL you made me WANT to be a better cleric

[Lyion]

Good Arguments, let me refute them.

The Audie Murphy example is good, because it focus' on the risk/reward element as well as the lack of treadmilling.

If he was in no 'danger' he would not have earned the CMOH. Thus, my belief perma death adds a level of grave danger that a world needs.

He was a Second Lieutenant, which means he was brand new in the military. That is the lowest ranking officer grade. By your justification, because he was a Second Lt he should not have been able to accomplish what he did.. He WAS an unskilled n00b, so what you are debating is self defeating!

The military is a good analogy in regards to levels. The way to advance in the Military is time. It has nothing to do with skill, it's just a matter of waiting the alloted time to get the next rank. Such a socialist approach is exactly the opposite of what I want in an Online World. It's also everything in my mind that is wrong with MMORPGs. Timesinks building caste systems is bad.

I agree with the need to train to get better, but we're talking Fantasy worlds, and escapes, not real life. I think the 'treadmill' needs to be minimal and the 'challenge/fun' needs to be maximized.

Dynamic events are not far off, and yes they will take an advance of technology. However, the alternative is having everyone be cookie cutter, and identical, which is what we presently have. What differentiates any Level 65 in EQ? Again, levels unlocking abilities to me a result of simplicity of MMORPGs and I hope that one day we'll get to a point of immersion where worlds are not single player instances driven by a simple database, with little change.

I'm not saying there should be wholesale change daily, but I hope developers come up with a dynamic world where events happen spontaneously, and it's not just the same spawns, instances, etc set up on a server where several thousand players reside.

To get to Euphoria's level of play you need to be good enough to join us.

I was at one time the guild leader and the raid leader of Euphoria, so I find this accurate, and yet our requirement was moreso about fulfilling the time sinks. That's something I never want to have to do again.

Adventure, fame, notoriety, accomplishments have NOTHING to do with levels.

Actually, not true. I refer you to Audy Murphy, who was the most decorated soldier of World War 2. Now, he got his medal of Honor for gunning down 40 germans single handedly in one fight by standing on top of a Tank. You can say: Luck, but: He had to have skill and experience to keep his cool and not die. No unskilled inexperienced person could have done what he did that day. You can ascribe only so much to luck, the rest is all talent and you get talent by doing the same thing over and over again until you get really good at what you do.

You can argue that this is what levels (or skill points depending on the system) are. If you did, you would be correct. I defy you to take some untrained undisciplined 17 year old and stand him on top of a tank and do the same thing. It wont happen.

Levels usually pertain to timesinks, which is the whole problem I personally have with the regurgitated AD&D graphical 3D worlds we call MMORPGs.

I refer you to the fact that to get good at something you must sacrifice something, you dont win a marathon with out training for it, you dont win sword fights with out training for it, you dont win spelling bees without practicing them. To practice and practice is a time sink. Time sinks happen and its all in real life.

My best times in EQ were epic encounters with FOW, Sanctuary, and Euphoria. That had zero to do with levelling. Levelling by and large sucked ass, both in EQ and DAOC for me.

Thats the whole problem with the genre. Its all about levels, and not about important things.

Yes, there should be means of improving, but levels are not it.

What level was Launcelot? What level was Elric?

To get to Euphoria's level of play you need to be good enough to join us. We dont take just anyone off the street with no AAs and no Raid experience, it isnt worth it to us because we might actually be relying on them to keep us alive and I dont want my evening ruined because someone doesnt want to commit to a game as much as I do. What do you think it should be if not levels? Skill points? Its the same thing really, only applied differently. The shooter that spends 3 hours a day practicing at the range is going to be better than the person that never practices. Just a fact of life. Levels works as a viable real world translation.

What level was Lancelot? He was the best knight of europe. No one could beat him in combat. So, what level was he? In Lancelot's world there were no levels per se, but there was levels of ability and his was the highest of them all: IE We would consider him to be a grand master, to put it into D&D terms he was probably level 50 or higher, and in EQ Terms? He was level 75. Elric was the same way. But, remember we didnt see them grow up and learn their skills which we do in EQ, they were introduced to us as full masters of their craft. No one in a new world (EQ, WoW, D&D) should ever start out as a master of their craft, there would be no point (If a player character) to playing the game and no way to seperate the people that are dedicated from the people that are not.

Levels are a poor design tool, allowing mediocre games that are supposed to be world simulations to have time sinks for thousands upon thousands of people.

The purpose of an MMORPG for me is for it to be a fun escape. To me risk, reward, and dynamic events make that so.

In one sentence you just said why the world you want you can not have in a persistant online gaming world. Only you didnt realize it. Who is going to be the earthshakers? The people that take part in that dynamic event? The bum in the street or the donald trumps of the world? Donald Trumps obviously because their level of dedication, wealth and drive is higher than yours. If you want a fun escape that requires no work, go play .. er... everything requires work actually. Dodge ball is fun because you are the last person out, not the first person.... Racing against other people is fun because you will be first not last... etc.. ad infinitum.

Levels are a design tool to allow for mass populizing of games, with little actual dynamic fun.

Perma death gives one real fear. That early 'I'm going to lose my corpse' fear EQ had that made the game so much more fun.

Dynamic events make it so things change constantly, and what you do matters. If people have no effect on the world, it might as well be a single player game, in my opinion.

Dynamic events that effect a game world is incredibly complex. So much so that you do not even realize it. For example, the only place that you can obtain yittrium ore is overrun by ogres and is then destroyed... you need this ore to complete a quest... however because of the dynamic world you can not longer do the quest because world conditions have changed. Realistic, yes, fun? No. Why? You may have spent hours doing that quest up to that point and now... you cant. You just wasted someone else's time... why will they continue to play the game that they cant spend all day playing if the things they are working for get removed from the game as part of the natural order? They wont.

Dynamic worlds are great for small groups of people that are friends. But they are not good for worlds that have thousands of people playing in them and these people can not play every day in them. The kind of world you want? It exists, but not in the computer world, it exists in the real world... go play that for a while and then tell me about time sinks (Going to the same job every day for years and not able to get ahead, for example...).

[Dylan]

Man, I knew I should have applied to Euphoria when I had the chance.

Ditto.

[Minrott]

What level was Lancelot? He was the best knight of europe. No one could beat him in combat. So, what level was he? In Lancelot's world there were no levels per se, but there was levels of ability and his was the highest of them all: IE We would consider him to be a grand master, to put it into D&D terms he was probably level 50 or higher, and in EQ Terms? He was level 75. Elric was the same way. But, remember we didnt see them grow up and learn their skills which we do in EQ, they were introduced to us as full masters of their craft. No one in a new world (EQ, WoW, D&D) should ever start out as a master of their craft, there would be no point (If a player character) to playing the game and no way to seperate the people that are dedicated from the people that are not.

This is a great point. However, (theoretically) if Lancelot was the greatest warrior of his time, he was the only level 75 and the only one capable of attaining that level. Why? Good breeding maybe. But in the MMOG everyone has the ability to reach that same level of measure no matter how "good" of a player they are. All they have to have is the time required.

Like Lyion said, the military is a good example, and for the most part, rank = time. Putting aside the people who get rank for bullshit reasons, there is one other way, and that is for showing exemplary performance in a time of need. Battlefield commitions etc. In the current MMOG there is no battlefield commition. There is only time spent x mobs killed = experience earned.

That is why there's always a race to the level cap on a new server. Since time is the determining factor of a rank that everyone is able to attain regardless of knowledge or ability (or luck!), then the only way you can claim to be number one is to be there first.

There has to be another way to attain a level of achievment that is not only unique to you but is noteriable as far as the community is concerned.

[Zanathar]

Good Arguments, let me refute them.

The Audie Murphy example is good, because it focus' on the risk/reward element as well as the lack of treadmilling.

If he was in no 'danger' he would not have earned the CMOH. Thus, my belief perma death adds a level of grave danger that a world needs.

He was a Second Lieutenant, which means he was brand new in the military. That is the lowest ranking officer grade. By your justification, because he was a Second Lt he should not have been able to accomplish what he did.. He WAS an unskilled n00b, so what you are debating is self defeating!

He was a private. He got promoted after he got his CMH. In fact he was eventually retired (Medical)as a Major in the US. Army. Also, you missed my entire point from square one. The example of Audie Murphy is a good one, better than you know, But not for the risk/reward thing. It is because he had to train to become good with the Machine Gun. He didnt go to boot camp, get handed a gun and then sent to Italy all in the same day. It is even true to this day that the US Soldier is the best trained and best equipped soldier on the battlefield and it was certainly true during World War II.

The game that you and several others propose, that needs no skill to play has already been made: Diablo (But most of you hated that... otherwise you would still be playing). That is just a click-fest game that needs little more than fast reflexes. The levels in Diablo just make it harder for you to die instantly.

The military is a good analogy in regards to levels. The way to advance in the Military is time. It has nothing to do with skill, it's just a matter of waiting the alloted time to get the next rank. Such a socialist approach is exactly the opposite of what I want in an Online World. It's also everything in my mind that is wrong with MMORPGs. Timesinks building caste systems is bad.

I agree with the need to train to get better, but we're talking Fantasy worlds, and escapes, not real life. I think the 'treadmill' needs to be minimal and the 'challenge/fun' needs to be maximized.

Actually, no. As a person that served in the Gulf during Desert Storm I can tell you in no uncertain terms that what you said about time and rank in the military is complete bullshit. In the military there is a "minium" amount of time in rank for each rank and that after this minimum is reached you are eligible for promotion (The minimum time in grade (rank, basically) was introduced after World War II to stop overly rapid advancement by unqualified people). Now, just because you are eligible does not make it so that you will be promoted. However, the ranks e1 to e3 are automatic promotions after you achieve minimum time in grade (6 months at E1, after training, then auto promotion to E2, 1 year there to get e3, then 1.5 years to get auto promoted to e4). However, these ranks are merely considered for pay purposes (for the most part), which is why the auto promotion. To get beyond E-4 you need to have talent, ability and lots of reccommendations from your superiors. To get to E-7 you need a college degree. You dont get that by investing time, you get that by working hard and making sacrifices.

Dynamic events are not far off, and yes they will take an advance of technology. However, the alternative is having everyone be cookie cutter, and identical, which is what we presently have. What differentiates any Level 65 in EQ? Again, levels unlocking abilities to me a result of simplicity of MMORPGs and I hope that one day we'll get to a point of immersion where worlds are not single player instances driven by a simple database, with little change.

I'm not saying there should be wholesale change daily, but I hope developers come up with a dynamic world where events happen spontaneously, and it's not just the same spawns, instances, etc set up on a server where several thousand players reside.

Your biggest problem with what you are asking for is smacking you right in the face, but you dont see it. Powergamers. You know them, you hate them, but damn you wish you could be them. Any ability that can be gotten easily will be gotten by all. Any game that doesnt have roles will create cookie cutter characters ala Ultima Online. UO had no "classes" but, instead, had skills. While one could argue that this method is more "real" because it allows a person to customize their skills to their playstyle it created a way for the powergamers to figure out which skills were the most powerful and then to powerlevel themselves up to be the most powerful people in the land. Eventually, the other players realize that they are at a handicap and then do the same thing to level the playing field and the end result? Clones.

To get to Euphoria's level of play you need to be good enough to join us.

I was at one time the guild leader and the raid leader of Euphoria, so I find this accurate, and yet our requirement was moreso about fulfilling the time sinks. That's something I never want to have to do again.

You will have to fogive me, but to be honest I have no idea who you are. I joined Euphoria two years ago when Dirth was guildleader and had been for some time. This of course was the time of Velious and the game has changed on many levels since then.

But back to the topic at hand... When you consider what it is that you want, you dont sound like you want a fantasy game. You sould like you want Diablo or Myst. Yet you want the MMORPG aspect too. The whole genre of role playing games is about character development. Character Development. Without character development you do not have a role playing game. You have a shoot em up game, ala Counter Strike. Or you have Command and Conquer. No character development in either of those two games.

Tossica wants a game he can pick up for only 15 minutes and advance in... those games do exist for you Tossica.. on the Sony Playstation. Sorry, online worlds do not come with a pause button.

The fundamental aspect of character development IS that time invested into a character means how much your character is developed. Everquest uses a lot of methods to slow this process down, why? It is necessary so that their world remains persistant, hard (and therefore a challenge) and rewarding. If you could fully develop your character in say, a month, why would you continue to play that game? You would not. You would have "beaten" the game. You are done. You would move on to another game that offered another challenge. Everquest did the right thing by making time sinks. Even if you dont agree and if you think that WoW wont have timesinks, guess again. They may say they wont have them, but when the "elites" in WoW are the same level as the "casuals" and have the same abilities and the same gear the "elites" will go somewhere else. So will the casuals.

The reason Everquest was successful is because it was a "hard" game. In this sense hard is equated by how much time you put in the game. If you create a game that has a very steep learning curve, to avoid the timesinks, then you create a game that isnt fun (you also create a timesink in learning how to play it). If you create a game that has no learning curve and requires no effort then you create a chat room with little else going for it.

Everquest broke the mold of what gaming used to be. Hate them, love them it doesnt matter. Every game that comes out from now on will be similar to Everquest on almost every level. Today, people are looking for that feeling of "newness". Well, some people say that WoW gives it for them, just like they said DAoC did for those people that quit. Most came back to EQ. I imagine that most will come back to EQ as well, in fact, I am starting to see it now in the people that left for WoW and are returning to EQ.

[Lyion]

He was a private. He got promoted after he got his CMH. In fact he was eventually retired (Medical)as a Major in the US. Army.

He didnt go to boot camp, get handed a gun and then sent to Italy all in the same day. It is even true to this day that the US Soldier is the best trained and best equipped soldier on the battlefield and it was certainly true during World War II.

The game that you and several others propose, that needs no skill to play has already been made: Diablo (But most of you hated that... otherwise you would still be playing). That is just a click-fest game that needs little more than fast reflexes. The levels in Diablo just make it harder for you to die instantly.

He was a second LT when he recieved his CMOH. Reread about his life. And you don't need much training to be useful with a Machine Gun. His courage and lack of fear were what exemplified him moreso than training.

I spent 6 years in the Military, and I spent 3 years in theatre for Desert Shield, Storm, and Operation everything afterwards. I'm not changing this thread to speak about Military training, but what you say is somewhat true with caveats. I'll address this further below.

Diablo is a levelquest game, just like EQ. It just levels quicker, and is more mind numbing, but the same basic premise is there. You level, you get stronger, and all you need is an assload of time. EQ, probably like how WOW will be, requires ZERO skill. Its all about levels and game knowledge.

Actually, no. As a person that served in the Gulf during Desert Storm I can tell you in no uncertain terms that what you said about time and rank in the military is complete bullshit. .

As I've said, I spent 6 years in theatre, my Dad was a career military officer, and I have a lot of family in the Military. I was in from 1988 to the end of 1993, 1990-1993 mostly in the Gulf.

Basic ascenion in rank is a matter of time. You do not need a degree to make E7. I know several Master Chiefs in the Navy with ZERO college, so your statement is total bullshit.

Senior ranks take time, due to billets opening up via people retiring. Still, it's not a matter of skill. I have met many, many moronic senior NCOs, and even more idiot officers.

What branch were you in? The Air Force? What did you do in the Gulf War?

I was a CTI-NAC Farsi Linguist flying with two squadrons out there, and off two different Aircraft Carriers. I was also on two ships initially.

I was about to make E6 when I got out of the Navy, and I hadn't finished my degree. 3 buddies who I went through boot with are E7/E8s, and they have no degree.

Sounds like you're from the Air Force. Being in my mind thats as close to the Military as the Peace Corps, I can understand your confusion!

Your biggest problem with what you are asking for is smacking you right in the face, but you dont see it. Powergamers. You know them, you hate them, but damn you wish you could be them. Any ability that can be gotten easily will be gotten by all. Any game that doesnt have roles will create cookie cutter characters ala Ultima Online. UO had no "classes" but, instead, had skills. While one could argue that this method is more "real" because it allows a person to customize their skills to their playstyle it created a way for the powergamers to figure out which skills were the most powerful and then to powerlevel themselves up to be the most powerful people in the land. Eventually, the other players realize that they are at a handicap and then do the same thing to level the playing field and the end result? Clones..

But thats all we have now in all MMORPGS. Clones. A level 65 EQ cleric is a level 65 EQ Cleric. Sure, you can differentiate from gear, but that is just another time sink, and not a true change of character.

Roles = TRUE clones. Abilities equate to more options. Give me probable roles over forced setups any day and twice on Sunday.

Also, I mentioned the UO model was flawed. Even so, it is still more advanced than EQ, in that there are more options, even if there are particular combo's that attract the powergamers. SWG is a better choice, but again it still is not a well done implementation.

Your point is good, though. How do you create a pure skills system without a cookie cutter single powerful setup many will use . I think thats what SWG and UO are doing, but its definitely still a problem. its very doable though.

You will have to fogive me, but to be honest I have no idea who you are. I joined Euphoria two years ago when Dirth was guildleader and had been for some time. This of course was the time of Velious and the game has changed on many levels since then. .

Understandable. I was before your time, and long gone from EQ when you joined Euph. I am an EQ geezer. :D

But back to the topic at hand... When you consider what it is that you want, you dont sound like you want a fantasy game. You sould like you want Diablo or Myst. Yet you want the MMORPG aspect too. The whole genre of role playing games is about character development. Character Development. Without character development you do not have a role playing game. You have a shoot em up game, ala Counter Strike. Or you have Command and Conquer. No character development in either of those two games. .

The reason EQ is/was successful is due to the attachment people have to their characters, due to the time sinks. Also, EQ released at the right time, and that has a lot to do with its success. Realise, EQ is MILDLY successful. It has had heavy turnover, and is not in my mind close to a 'perfect' game. It was revolutionary for the time, and yes people feel beholden to a character they spent so much time with.

No, I do not want Command and Conquer or an FPS. Planetside is out there and is what you describe.

I want an IMMERSIVE, FUN, DANGEROUS, SOCIAL game. I think time sinks suck. I think respawns suck. I dislike the treadmill that is the cause of EQs success, but also the bane that drove people away in droves and prevented a cool AD&D world from becoming a million plus subscriber game.

How much more would EQ accomplisments be if you couldn't respawn? Those who awoke The Sleeper did something nobody else will be able to do. How cool is that?

The fundamental aspect of character development IS that time invested into a character means how much your character is developed. Everquest uses a lot of methods to slow this process down, why? It is necessary so that their world remains persistant, hard (and therefore a challenge) and rewarding. If you could fully develop your character in say, a month, why would you continue to play that game? You would not. You would have "beaten" the game. You are done. You would move on to another game that offered another challenge. Everquest did the right thing by making time sinks. Even if you dont agree and if you think that WoW wont have timesinks, guess again. They may say they wont have them, but when the "elites" in WoW are the same level as the "casuals" and have the same abilities and the same gear the "elites" will go somewhere else. So will the casuals.

Everquest broke the mold of what gaming used to be. Hate them, love them it doesnt matter. Every game that comes out from now on will be similar to Everquest on almost every level. Today, people are looking for that feeling of "newness". Well, some people say that WoW gives it for them, just like they said DAoC did for those people that quit. Most came back to EQ. I imagine that most will come back to EQ as well, in fact, I am starting to see it now in the people that left for WoW and are returning to EQ.

I disagree in that EQ is NOT challenging. Character development takes time because of the nasty EXP requirements SOLELY.

Each of the levelquest games has a niche market. DAOC has 250k. EQ has 400k. AC has 1k. Each to their own crowd. None have 'mainstream' appeal. They are keeping people mainly due to character attachment, and not to do with the game, I think. I want to gain this many more AAs and get this piece of loot. I want this many more Realm Points so I can get this title


EQ is also pretty much a single player game with a few thousand people in it. There are respawns, and NOTHING changes. Explain to me how its any different from Morrowind, save the fact there is a chat system in place, and the item database resides in Sony HQ versus on your HDD?

At the end of the day, it should not be a treadmill. I believe a game that has character development and real danger does not need time sinks to survive. I also think that if a game comes along where ones actions have meaning in the world, and with true immersion, it'll be a homerun.

Star Wars Galaxies allows one to max their character in a month, Morgreth. Their 300,000 subscribers prove a non treadmill game can indeed be successful.

If someone were to get the formula right, with the factors that I *as well as Toss and a few others* listed then it would get the 1 million+ subscribers the treadmill powergamer catering AD&D/Diku MUD clones will never see.

EQ was great for its time, but I really hope the games start to evolve and grow. I do not want another EQ.[/b]

[Tossica]

You talk way too much Morgreth.

Being skilled at a game and wasting your entire life camping rare spawns are completely different things.

I don't care if the game is a massive online game or not, expecting someone to spend their entire waking life in a "game" is fucking outrageous. The ONLY reason they make everything take so long is so they can continue to take your money every month. You may think that you have accomplished great things in EQ but honestly, all you have done is waste valuable time that could have been spent with your family.

[Lyion]

I don't care if the game is a massive online game or not, expecting someone to spend their entire waking life in a "game" is fucking outrageous. The ONLY reason they make everything take so long is so they can continue to take your money every month. You may think that you have accomplished great things in EQ but honestly, all you have done is waste valuable time that could have been spent with your family.

Exactly, thus the treadmill.

Why make real content and a real, immersive world when you can get away with static, easy, garbage in a one size fits all mentality?

[Tossica]

I wonder what level Bilbo was in "The Hobbit"?

[Zanathar]

He was a second LT when he recieved his CMOH. Reread about his life. And you don't need much training to be useful with a Machine Gun. His courage and lack of fear were what exemplified him moreso than training.

He was a private in the US Army when he performed the deed that earned him his CMH, he was also wounded in that battle and as a result of that engagement was later medically retired from the military. He was given a battlefield promotion to LT. before he got his CMH while he was in the Hospital.

Basic ascenion in rank is a matter of time. You do not need a degree to make E7. I know several Master Chiefs in the Navy with ZERO college, so your statement is total bullshit.

Senior ranks take time, due to billets opening up via people retiring. Still, it's not a matter of skill. I have met many, many moronic senior NCOs, and even more idiot officers.

Heh, there are moronic people all over the world that get into positions of authority that leave people (that just met them) wondering how the hell they got there. However, they usually earned the right to be there, whether or not you think they happened to be a moron. Senior rank advancement is independent of the service branch, IE, each branch has its own way of advancement. In the Army you need a 4 year degree to get past e-6.

What branch were you in? The Air Force? What did you do in the Gulf War?

Special Forces. Scud recon.

Sounds like you're from the Air Force. Being in my mind thats as close to the Military as the Peace Corps, I can understand your confusion!

Um. No.

But thats all we have now in all MMORPGS. Clones. A level 65 EQ cleric is a level 65 EQ Cleric. Sure, you can differentiate from gear, but that is just another time sink, and not a true change of character.

Roles = TRUE clones. Abilities equate to more options. Give me probable roles over forced setups any day and twice on Sunday.

Also, I mentioned the UO model was flawed. Even so, it is still more advanced than EQ, in that there are more options, even if there are particular combo's that attract the powergamers. SWG is a better choice, but again it still is not a well done implementation.

Your point is good, though. How do you create a pure skills system without a cookie cutter single powerful setup many will use . I think thats what SWG and UO are doing, but its definitely still a problem. its very doable though.

Actually, no it isnt possible. And trust me, these arguements have been flown around the discussion groups many many many times before, and yes the same conclusion was formed.

Examples:

Your example of Clones: A 65 cleric is a 65 cleric is a 65 cleric. However, with my 2 years in a raiding guild I know this to be false. People have varying degrees of inherent skill within a class. For example, I have a 65 cleric that was given to me, I can play him in groups and have gotten good enough to be able to play a cleric in GoD and still be able to keep the group alive during trials. However, in comparison to inherent skill I suck compared to the original owner and I have upgraded the gear quite a bit since then as well. So, we can discount your gear is everything comment. Spells are also a time sink, as they should be. In fact, it is spells that are permanant increases in utility and power, depending on class. Getting these SHOULD BE hard. You should have to spend time and effort in getting them, they shouldnt be handed to you because you dont want to do a timesink.

If the skill based tree system was perfect and flawless then everyone would do it. Hell, the only reason why people choose to be an entertainer in SWG is because they might need it to become a Jedi. Other than that, there really isnt any point to making a charcter, clicking on the dance key on your keyboard and then... walking away from the computer so your toon can sing and dance for hours on end. While similar to the trading feature in everquest, you are not advancing your character while trading... you are advancing while afk with SWG.

Positives for a class based system (Feel free to disagree) if balanced properly:

Each person has a role to fill. Healers are healers, warriors are warriors, etc.
Each role is important. You need a healer for the tank, etc..
You have class dependency (This is just too important to ignore).
All of this forces: Cooperation and community.
These four single things are the very essence of a "successful" game. Why? While people are pigeon holed into a role, it is well defined and some people will be better suited than others at them. Excellent examples of "Roles/Classes" Merlin, Charlemagne, King Arthur, Sinbadd, Aladin, Achilles, etc...

Positives for Skill based systems:

Fully custimizable
Allows you to change "profession".

Negatives for Class based systems:

Locked into role, unless there is some way to change profession (Wizardry series, D&D, others allow this)
Class dependency (notice, it is a positive and a negative)
Solo classes tend to get over looked

Negatives for Skill bases systems:

Not very realistic. Even when someone changes a job in real life they dont lose the skills they acquired in the previous job.
Does not foster a strong community because there is no real interdependence among the people playing.
No Class dependency
Lots more

Each one has its pluses and minuses, but in the end, the class based system wins (Probably why WoW is classed based? Hmmm)

You will have to fogive me, but to be honest I have no idea who you are. I joined Euphoria two years ago when Dirth was guildleader and had been for some time. This of course was the time of Velious and the game has changed on many levels since then. .

Understandable. I was before your time, and long gone from EQ when you joined Euph. I am an EQ geezer. :D

I have been playing since 1999... Before Dirth being guildleader there was Arshesnei (who founded the guild)... I know most of the original founding members of Euphoria... Still drawing a blank with you.

The reason EQ is/was successful is due to the attachment people have to their characters, due to the time sinks. Also, EQ released at the right time, and that has a lot to do with its success. Realise, EQ is MILDLY successful. It has had heavy turnover, and is not in my mind close to a 'perfect' game. It was revolutionary for the time, and yes people feel beholden to a character they spent so much time with.

Ok, this paragraph makes me laugh. Why? You just said why EQ is so popular. "EQ released at the right time.." WTF? Hello? EQ was ground breaking for its time. It was the first real immersive 3D world. It may not be what you consider to be immersive now, but when it was released it most certainly was. It is a success because it was NEW for its Genre. It has become the very standard of MMORPGs. Also, your first sentence seems to contradict everything you said up to this point and support the very reason why games will be like EQ in the future. When you have time invested in something, you are less willing to give it up. Since TIME = MONEY. Sounds like a smart, savy and winning business practice to me. And if a company is going to invest Millions of dollars to make a game you can bet your bottom dollar they will want you to play for a long time.

Remember: The ultimate time sink is: Character Development. If you dont care about your character, then you dont care about the game and you will want to move on.

I want an IMMERSIVE, FUN, DANGEROUS, SOCIAL game. I think time sinks suck. I think respawns suck. I dislike the treadmill that is the cause of EQs success, but also the bane that drove people away in droves and prevented a cool AD&D world from becoming a million plus subscriber game.

Ok, everquest never was and has never been a cool AD&D Game. It had elements that were like AD&D but it was never an AD&D game. AD&D does not translate well into a MMORPG Game. But for stand alone games it can rock (Baldur's Gate).

I disagree in that EQ is NOT challenging. Character development takes time because of the nasty EXP requirements SOLELY.

All role playing games have exp requirements, even Skill-tree based games do. State an alternative.

EQ is also pretty much a single player game with a few thousand people in it. There are respawns, and NOTHING changes. Explain to me how its any different from Morrowind, save the fact there is a chat system in place, and the item database resides in Sony HQ versus on your HDD?

Competition.

At the end of the day, it should not be a treadmill. I believe a game that has character development and real danger does not need time sinks to survive. I also think that if a game comes along where ones actions have meaning in the world, and with true immersion, it'll be a homerun.

AD&D did that. It was a homerun. But it didnt have mass appeal. In fact, lots of people hated it. But, it did all of what you asked for. Translating AD&D into a MMORPG is not at this time possible.

This isnt to say that you can not make a MMORPG falsely dynamic. IE: If you complete a quest you can not do it again, but you could help others do theirs. Or you can kill the sleeper once, but you cant do it again, but another guild can... etc... These sorts of things could be done.

BUT

You run into the whole problem of: We killed the sleeper, we all get loot now? While very AD&Dish it... AD&D was essentially a simple game with a very simple combat system. Once you killed the dragon in AD&D, the adventure was over. With Everquest the adventure is not over. It continues. Making fresh new finely tuned content for 5000+ people every month requires a level of work that is somewhat mind boggling especially if you want it to be good well put together content.

Star Wars Galaxies allows one to max their character in a month, Morgreth. Their 300,000 subscribers prove a non treadmill game can indeed be successful.

Ummm, their numbers vanished with the release of CoH. The mark of a successful game is and always has been: Longevity. I was one of those SWG subscribers, I cancelled my account after a month (and had mastered 3 professions) because it was too easy in comparison to the treadmill of EQ.

If someone were to get the formula right, with the factors that I *as well as Toss and a few others* listed then it would get the 1 million+ subscribers the treadmill powergamer catering AD&D/Diku MUD clones will never see.

You want the pen and paper AD&D in computer form, but want to have it be massively multiplayer. That can not happen because AD&D at its core was never designed for more than 12 people to play at any one time. The things you want, can not happen. Why? Well its not fair that you get to Kill Nagafen and I dont, ad infinitum. Your AD&D Campaign can not be played in a Massively Multiplayer On Line Role Playing Game. (And to your anti level but wanna be AD&D stance: Last I checked, AD&D was all about levels and was from the first day it started).

[Tossica]

Lyion/Kyojitsu has been around since way back in the day Morg. In fact, I think he may have helped out a few times on some of AC's first forays in to the planes. Sanctuary was in the top 2 guilds on the server at that time and if I recall correctly, Lyion was their GL?

[Zanathar]

Sorry, never heard of him.

[Tossica]

You were probably too busy camping Jboots and FBSS for your 8th twink.

[Zanathar]

Never camped FBSS, freely admit to camping jboots, but I also raided every chance I got. Which, sadly, wasnt enough while I was in AC.

[Lyion]

Lyion/Kyojitsu has been around since way back in the day Morg. In fact, I think he may have helped out a few times on some of AC's first forays in to the planes. Sanctuary was in the top 2 guilds on the server at that time and if I recall correctly, Lyion was their GL?

Briefly. It was a weird ride. Here's what I can remember...

The first guild I was in was Storm Reavers when the server was brand spanking new. Then it broke up due to internal politics with a good portion going into Legacy of Steel. I formed my own guild called Fires of Wrath. I took a work break and much of FOW was enveloped into Legacy again, and it broke up.

After hanging out with just a few friends, we joined Sanctuary when Fell was burnt out. I was guildleader for them for a time and we were pretty raid heavy. Fell retook over Sanctuary and moved the guild to a different server. Many of those who didn't go to another server either joined Legacy or went to Euphoria.

Uggmo, Arshesnei and a few others from Decadent Few and other guilds were trying to merge and create a raiding guild. Euphoria was formed. I was Guildleader for a time and led raids for Euphoria. Arshesnei also was guildleader for a while. I helped devise their initial points/loot system. I was with them through heavy Kael and North TOV raiding, but quit EQ for good right when EQs 4th expansion was being released. I moved with a group from EQ to Dark Age of Camelot, that included Hazakiah, Saldara, Ganzo, Tannon and a few others.

I pretty much raided with and helped a bunch of different guilds with Lyion/Kyo. I quit close to 3 years ago though, so I don't expect most people to remember me, save the old timers like Toss.

[DangerPaul]

Lyion/Kyojitsu has been around since way back in the day Morg. In fact, I think he may have helped out a few times on some of AC's first forays in to the planes. Sanctuary was in the top 2 guilds on the server at that time and if I recall correctly, Lyion was their GL?

Briefly. It was a weird ride. Here's what I can remember...

The first guild I was in was Storm Reavers when the server was brand spanking new. Then it broke up due to internal politics with a good portion going into Legacy of Steel. I formed my own guild called Fires of Wrath. I took a work break and much of FOW was enveloped into Legacy again, and it broke up.

After hanging out with just a few friends, we joined Sanctuary when Fell was burnt out. I was guildleader for them for a time and we were pretty raid heavy. Fell retook over Sanctuary and moved the guild to a different server. Many of those who didn't go to another server either joined Legacy or went to Euphoria.

Uggmo, Arshesnei and a few others from Decadent Few and other guilds were trying to merge and create a raiding guild. Euphoria was formed. I was Guildleader for a time and led raids for Euphoria. Arshesnei also was guildleader for a while. I helped devise their initial points/loot system. I was with them through heavy Kael and North TOV raiding, but quit EQ for good right when EQs 4th expansion was being released. I moved with a group from EQ to Dark Age of Camelot, that included Hazakiah, Saldara, Ganzo, Tannon and a few others.

I pretty much raided with and helped a bunch of different guilds with Lyion/Kyo. I quit close to 3 years ago though, so I don't expect most people to remember me, save the old timers like Toss.

I remember Kyo, I think you even helped my ass in Guk when I was in my 30s.

[Martrae]

I remember Kyo....had a chat with you one night about a couple members of Sanc being assholes and you blew me off.

[Tacks]

I was pretty much guilded with Lyion for like 2-3 years=P

I will always remember the first Gorenaire kill with Euphoria. That was one of the most fun nights I've had in EQ.

[Lyion]

I was pretty much guilded with Lyion for like 2-3 years=P
I will always remember the first Gorenaire kill with Euphoria. That was one of the most fun nights I've had in EQ.

I still remember you as Briss. That name made me laugh..

You were a trip. A good, reliable player who took things seriously and played hard. I did the same, and it was a pain since the PvE setup kinda of limits one, and we were always playing catchup with LOS. We never sucked up to them. I had a good time back then.

On the treadmill thoughts, I played on the same Shadowbane server as Tenaj. It was quite satisfying to kill him. Actually, I ended up chatting with him and he was pretty cool. We ended up grouping a bit, even though I only played Shadowbane for 2 months. Wild how things change.

I remember Kyo....had a chat with you one night about a couple members of Sanc being assholes and you blew me off.

Sanctuary was like every guild. Good players and assholes. Sorry if I blew you off, but the amount of tells I had during my time in Sanctuary was sick. We definitely had a few antisocial people in the guild, and seemed to piss off others nightly.

[Minrott]

Just after Sanc dissapeared you were interested in joining Paragons. But we were going right down the shitter as well. Even though we never got to the same level of play as LoS or Sanc at the time. I think we had potential. Then Euphoria started. I think with you and Ronstar and Kaynne at the helm we would've really had something. Just too many social butterflies to make the raiding thing go into full swing.

I can't believe I get so sentimental over a video game.

[Kabakaba]

Sanctuary was like every guild. Good players and assholes.

I was one of those asshole's


One of the games thats coming out soon is called Guild war's very similier to what you desribed bro;p

I will always remember the first Gorenaire kill with Euphoria. That was one of the most fun nights I've had in EQ.

Haha i remember that first kill and all of us using bark potions that Kyo bought so we wouldnt run when feared was one of my most fun times with Kyo that and the day when he gave me my very first CoF's.

Just after Sanc dissapeared you were interested in joining Paragons.

I remember at that time i was trying to get Kyo to join us in Paragons like mad but yeah we were going down the tubes around that time and he took about 13 or so other Sanct members and made a guild with Hazakiah i forgot the guilds name but later they merged with Uggmo's crew and formed Euph i joined shortly after it was formed like a week or so later ahh those were the days.

p.s Minrott is a little school girl and always will be.

[Tacks]

Bark Potion powa!

[Lyion]

Back in the Kunark daze, when Trak was tough, this was a pretty good memory of mine. Followed by the infamous Singing Steel Breastplate episode.