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Postby Narrock » Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:25 pm

brinstar wrote:to try and derail the current unnecessary argument, i thusly pose a question.

two coworkers and i were talking about the whole mess yesterday, and one of the guys wasn't very knowledgeable about the area in general. the conversation was mostly between me, a dove, and gene, a guy who started out hawk but is leaning more and more to the dove side every day. kyle suddenly asked "why do we [as a country] care so much about israel anyway?" the conversation suddenly ground to a halt, as neither gene nor i could think of an official reason why our government is so blindly supportive of israel. american zionism is a primary basis for anti-american sentiments throughout the arab world, and one of the driving forces that led to both WTC attacks.

i believe every nation, ethnic group, religious group, social group, etc deserves to live in peace, and in this case Hezbollah was clearly the aggressor-- but that's MY answer to the question. what's the USA's official answer? is there one? if "protecting innocent people from aggression" is our answer, then why just israel? there are a dozen or so other wars going on all over the world. which side are we on in the civil war in Ivory Coast? which pony gets our applause in the Darfur battle royale, which a reuters poll declared "the world's most dangerous place for children"?

i don't want israel to get shitcanned any more than ganzo does, but our unwavering support has undeniably made us a crapload of enemies. so why do we do it? is there anything in it for us besides a warm fuzzy feeling?


It's just the right thing to do.
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Postby Harrison » Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:17 pm

Tuggan wrote:hey look, more people that only read into one side of the story. cool.


Please enlighten me, what is the "other side of the story?"

I will await your answer dilligently.

I am by no means an expert, but I take a sort of pride in my knowledge of current and past affairs in the Middle East's complicated politics.

I'll try not to come back to this topic until tomorrow.
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Postby Tikker » Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:33 pm

Narrock wrote:
brinstar wrote:to try and derail the current unnecessary argument, i thusly pose a question.

two coworkers and i were talking about the whole mess yesterday, and one of the guys wasn't very knowledgeable about the area in general. the conversation was mostly between me, a dove, and gene, a guy who started out hawk but is leaning more and more to the dove side every day. kyle suddenly asked "why do we [as a country] care so much about israel anyway?" the conversation suddenly ground to a halt, as neither gene nor i could think of an official reason why our government is so blindly supportive of israel. american zionism is a primary basis for anti-american sentiments throughout the arab world, and one of the driving forces that led to both WTC attacks.

i believe every nation, ethnic group, religious group, social group, etc deserves to live in peace, and in this case Hezbollah was clearly the aggressor-- but that's MY answer to the question. what's the USA's official answer? is there one? if "protecting innocent people from aggression" is our answer, then why just israel? there are a dozen or so other wars going on all over the world. which side are we on in the civil war in Ivory Coast? which pony gets our applause in the Darfur battle royale, which a reuters poll declared "the world's most dangerous place for children"?

i don't want israel to get shitcanned any more than ganzo does, but our unwavering support has undeniably made us a crapload of enemies. so why do we do it? is there anything in it for us besides a warm fuzzy feeling?


It's just the right thing to do.


why though?

what makes defending israel any more "right" than defending the innocents in Rwanda?
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Postby Narrock » Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:34 pm

Tikker wrote:
Narrock wrote:
brinstar wrote:to try and derail the current unnecessary argument, i thusly pose a question.

two coworkers and i were talking about the whole mess yesterday, and one of the guys wasn't very knowledgeable about the area in general. the conversation was mostly between me, a dove, and gene, a guy who started out hawk but is leaning more and more to the dove side every day. kyle suddenly asked "why do we [as a country] care so much about israel anyway?" the conversation suddenly ground to a halt, as neither gene nor i could think of an official reason why our government is so blindly supportive of israel. american zionism is a primary basis for anti-american sentiments throughout the arab world, and one of the driving forces that led to both WTC attacks.

i believe every nation, ethnic group, religious group, social group, etc deserves to live in peace, and in this case Hezbollah was clearly the aggressor-- but that's MY answer to the question. what's the USA's official answer? is there one? if "protecting innocent people from aggression" is our answer, then why just israel? there are a dozen or so other wars going on all over the world. which side are we on in the civil war in Ivory Coast? which pony gets our applause in the Darfur battle royale, which a reuters poll declared "the world's most dangerous place for children"?

i don't want israel to get shitcanned any more than ganzo does, but our unwavering support has undeniably made us a crapload of enemies. so why do we do it? is there anything in it for us besides a warm fuzzy feeling?


It's just the right thing to do.


why though?

what makes defending israel any more "right" than defending the innocents in Rwanda?


If you don't know the answer to that question, maybe you ought to watch the news and read some books on the situation.
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Postby Minrott » Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:39 pm

So you don't know the answer either? I don't even understand how christians are so defendant of Israel to begin with, they killed your fucking prophet.
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Postby Narrock » Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:43 pm

Minrott wrote:So you don't know the answer either? I don't even understand how christians are so defendant of Israel to begin with, they killed your fucking prophet.


Christians have close ties with Jews, religiously. Israel is an ally of the United States. How many more answers do you need?
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Postby Lueyen » Sat Jul 29, 2006 1:59 am

As far as the religious question, Christians have close ties to Judaism, remember Christ was a Jew. Jews see him as a prophet, and don't recognize his divinity as Christians do. In essence Jews are still waiting for the fist coming if you will. While this means a major philosophical difference, at the core Jews and Christians still worship the same god. There are also quite a few similarities between Islam, Judaism, and Christianity (but obviously some major and difficult to reconcile differences). Personally the biggest difference I see would be in the advancement of faiths if you will. Radical Islam is very predominant in modern times and by radical I mean the mindset that everyone else is not only wrong, but must either convert (by force if necessary) or be destroyed. Frankly this is not far removed from Christianity (at least in the more medieval times and the past Roman Catholic brand of it) during the time of the Crusades. The difference in modern day is that there isn't a cohesive influential movement in Christianity or Judaism that actively seeks to destroy other religions and the practitioners of them. Basically acceptance of peoples of different beliefs and faith to the extent that you don't feel the need to kill them on religious principal is something that Judaism and Christianity have evolved into... this is not the case for at least a portion and very influential one at that of modern day Islam. While I'm sure there are isolated cases, for the norm the vast majority of Jews and Christians are not out to kill differing faiths or "wipe them off the face of the earth". With Islam however this does exist in a measurable extent.
The adage "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" holds true here. Jews and Christians have learned to peacefully coexist, radical Islamists have not. Until Islam realizes an evolution into a religion that completely shuns the radical ideals of the destruction of other peoples of differing faiths there will always be strife. The problem that stops this from happening is the mixture of the Islamic faith into government and politics.

Honestly Radical Islam is a glaring example of a reason for separation of church and state. To the radical Islamist the two are completely inseparable, man is in the end governed by god, and there for government by the faith and the leadership of that faith is by extension a natural and necessary arrangement. Western culture to these radicals is on the surface a obscenity, in that man is not directly governed by God, and much deeper a threat to the power and esteem of the religious organizations. The grip that Islam has now in government and politics is that children are raised and taught radical hatred in many Arab countries. To give an example there was a person on a radio talk show I was listening to today that called in and described a part of his childhood schooling in Iran, where on a daily basis students were expected to stand and shout out "death to America". Be it through fear, or a sense of brotherhood, more rational Muslims often do not speak out or oppose the radical side. "You fight one, you fight us all" is the mentality that results. Frankly it's not that dissimilar to our support of Israel in that aspect, save for the difference that Israel if left alone would not actively seek to destroy. It is both a testament to the Muslim mindset of a strong sense of brotherhood, but also it's greatest downfall. Allegiance to your brother is commendable, but it becomes a problem when it is absolute despite your brothers deplorable actions.

Organizations like Hezbollah are worse imho then Al Qaeda. At least Al Qaeda has to operate below the surface and while it may enjoy the support of various governments unlike Hezbollah it is not an unconcealed political force. I see it as akin to the racial revolution this country experienced not long ago in our past. While previous generations were very bigoted, it has become less and less acceptable. Over time children are not being indoctrinated into the racial hate and bigotry mindset. While it still exists it will eventually fade away we will not convert if you will the entrenched bigot who has know and thought that way all of their lives, but we can isolate and prevent the passing of those beliefs generation to generation. Racism and bigotry will eventually fade, not because of government mandate, but because of a change in society’s mindset, and the eventual passing away of those who refuse to change.

All that aside however, my current support and resolve to back Israel does not stem directly from religious ideal, but that of a common foe. From a national interest standpoint Israel is the most US friendly country in the region. Much deeper though is that we are opposing the same force that will not change regardless of ours or Israeli action (or inaction). That force will never be content to live and let live, they will always seek to wipe us out, and destroy what this country stands for. Do I see it conceivably possible for them to succeed? Not really but if someone was dead set on taking my life, even if they had no feasible way of touching me, I'm not going to ignore them and hope they go away. Failure to watch your back in a case like this can only result in the very least something detrimental to you. The history of this conflict has demonstrated that compromise and concession do not work, principally because in nature that route is flawed. There can be no compromise; no hope of peace if one side doesn't really want it, and any compromised reached is only given as a means to the end of the other sides destruction.

I am very concerned at this point. I fear our support for Israel is starting to waiver. Talk of a cease fire, of at least a temporary conditional truce scare me, not because I see it as a bad thing innately, but because I do not believe a truce or ceasefire even temporarily should require any compromise on Israel’s part. If Israel chose to do so it could be completely and utterly victorious in its conflict with other countries in the region, in essence Israel is fully capable of the goals of its enemies, it could wipe them out... fortunately this is not true for the opposing side. From a military standpoint Israel is holding aces, and its opponents have little if anything to realistically work with. Israeli demands in the release of captured soldiers and the disarmament of the Hezbollah as provision of a cease fire/truce are both fair and facilitate at least a state of uneasy peace; there should be no compromise in this. While militarily they hold the upper hand, but I fear that politically they do not. It may come to pass that my greatest criticism of the Bush administration may very well be a failure to support Israel. I fear that our direction will not be one that's goal is working toward lasting peace in the region, but one of political pandering that will result in a short term uneasy false peace, and one that is only gained by again sacrificing Israel's position and defense capability.

Holy shit... I need to make cliff notes for that.
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Postby brinstar » Sat Jul 29, 2006 2:27 am

Narrock wrote:How many more answers do you need?


lol, i can sum up your entire answer to my question as: "because"

lueyen, thank you for thinking before you posted. you made a lot of good points and i now have a better idea of why the US has israel's back. other questions were raised in my mind, but overall i think you nailed it.
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Postby mofish » Sat Jul 29, 2006 9:37 am

I read that long-ass post, and agree.

I have clarity in this conflict. I see people coming out of the woodwork to down Israel for this. Its kind of appalling to me.

What if there was a Nazi skinhead army in Canada that was firing rockets at Detroit and kidnapping black people in cross border raids into the US and Canada did nothing about it?
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Postby Tikker » Sat Jul 29, 2006 9:49 am

Narrock wrote:
If you don't know the answer to that question, maybe you ought to watch the news and read some books on the situation.


see if you can answer a question on your own

why jump in for israel, and not rwanda?
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Postby mofish » Sat Jul 29, 2006 9:58 am

Not doing something in rwanda was a grave error, a tragedy.
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Postby Narrock » Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:08 am

Tikker wrote:
Narrock wrote:
If you don't know the answer to that question, maybe you ought to watch the news and read some books on the situation.


see if you can answer a question on your own

why jump in for israel, and not rwanda?


I don't know why we didn't intervene and offer some sort of support to help eliminate the genocide going on there. Did Canada help there?
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Postby Narrock » Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:10 am

brinstar wrote:
Narrock wrote:How many more answers do you need?


lol, i can sum up your entire answer to my question as: "because"

lueyen, thank you for thinking before you posted. you made a lot of good points and i now have a better idea of why the US has israel's back. other questions were raised in my mind, but overall i think you nailed it.


I choose brevity over long-winded paragraphs. I'll leave that up to Lueyen.
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Postby Narrock » Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:11 am

mofish wrote:I read that long-ass post, and agree.

I have clarity in this conflict. I see people coming out of the woodwork to down Israel for this. Its kind of appalling to me.

What if there was a Nazi skinhead army in Canada that was firing rockets at Detroit and kidnapping black people in cross border raids into the US and Canada did nothing about it?


Canada would shrug its shoulders and look the other way.
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Postby brinstar » Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:51 am

Narrock wrote:
brinstar wrote:
Narrock wrote:How many more answers do you need?


lol, i can sum up your entire answer to my question as: "because"

lueyen, thank you for thinking before you posted. you made a lot of good points and i now have a better idea of why the US has israel's back. other questions were raised in my mind, but overall i think you nailed it.


I choose brevity over long-winded paragraphs. I'll leave that up to Lueyen.


no, you choose copout answers over real thought.

luckily, lueyen covered that base.
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Postby Lyion » Sat Jul 29, 2006 11:59 am

I had a four page response to Lueyen when my laptops battery decided to die. /rude

Suffice to say your view is spot on for a Westerner, but completely different for a Middle Eastern Muslim.

In their opinion, they are not invading or bombing the west. They did not drop a Jewish Religious state in the middle of our lands. They are fighting the best they can and feel they are right. Their people are dying while we funnel billions to Israel and the latest weaponry.
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Postby Harrison » Sat Jul 29, 2006 1:06 pm

Wow, I am totally surprised that Tuggan didn't respond :rofl:
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Postby Lueyen » Sat Jul 29, 2006 1:33 pm

mofish wrote:Not doing something in rwanda was a grave error, a tragedy.


To answer your question on the difference Tikker, the citizens of the US do not have as close ties to the situation in Rwanda as we do with Israel. There were not the large ties with Rwanda due to family and origin, nor that of a common enemy.

I'm not trying to excuse our lack of action in Rwanda, but there is a difference, that being that Israel is closer to home sort of speak. Perhaps the only nation of the three that were closely involved that could be said not to have blood on it's hands would be Belgium. Although I view our policy with less of a dim view then I do France's, both the US and France failed miserably to take actions (both in the political arena in the UN and in the military sense) that would have prevented the wide spread bloodshed.

lyion wrote:I had a four page response to Lueyen when my laptops battery decided to die. /rude

Suffice to say your view is spot on for a Westerner, but completely different for a Middle Eastern Muslim.

In their opinion, they are not invading or bombing the west. They did not drop a Jewish Religious state in the middle of our lands. They are fighting the best they can and feel they are right. Their people are dying while we funnel billions to Israel and the latest weaponry.


If you wouldn't mind retyping it or at least a portion of it, I figured you might take exception or have some further insight into the issue, and I was very interested in what you would have to say about it. Your synopsis is pretty basic for obvious reasons, but doesn't lend to much more understanding then one can achieve via "western" media, and I was kind of counting on something from you that would help give a deeper understanding of the other side if you will.

I was going to thank Brinstar for the compliment, but also caution that what I said was my view and perspective on the situation. I did intend to refer him to you to an extent as your knowledge of the big picture is much more in depth then my own, as I recall you spent quite a bit of time actually in the area.
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Those who are willing to be the most ruthless always win. The pacifists always lose, because the anti-pacifists kill them.
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Postby Narrock » Sat Jul 29, 2006 3:14 pm

brinstar wrote:
Narrock wrote:
brinstar wrote:
Narrock wrote:How many more answers do you need?


lol, i can sum up your entire answer to my question as: "because"

lueyen, thank you for thinking before you posted. you made a lot of good points and i now have a better idea of why the US has israel's back. other questions were raised in my mind, but overall i think you nailed it.


I choose brevity over long-winded paragraphs. I'll leave that up to Lueyen.


no, you choose copout answers over real thought.

luckily, lueyen covered that base.


That's bullshit and you know it. I really don't care to write long paragraphs about a subject unless it's something I feel really strong about. Re-read Lueyen's post. What I said pretty much sums it up: Christians have close religious ties with Jews, and Israel is a close ally of the U.S. That's it in a nutshell.
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Postby Ganzo » Sat Jul 29, 2006 5:25 pm

I do not really care who’s right or wrong, or whose side people on this board are. I know this much; two of my nephews are in IDF (were called in as reserves), one in Lebanon, other just came back home yesterday, also I got over 20 family members in Haifa (being bombed by Hezbollah), and another 14 in Ashqelon (being bombed by Hamas); so you might guess who’s side I’m on.

This morning I spoke on the phone with my nephew who just came back from almost a week in Lebanon. He told me that the reason so many Israeli soldiers are dying right now, is Hezbollah using local population as human shields. Now I don’t care how much you hate someone, or not care for your own life, but you just don’t use your own people as human shields against enemy soldiers. You don’t set up your missile launchers in front of apartment buildings so that retaliation strike blows the building to pieces and hope for as many civilian casualties as possible, to make other side look bad. That fucking UN outpost that they crying so much about, had 20 missiles launched at Haifa 30 yards away from it, over 6 hour period.

I can go on and on, but why bother.
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Postby Trielelvan » Sat Jul 29, 2006 6:13 pm

I pray that all your family remains safe, Ganzo. :cry:
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Postby Jay » Sat Jul 29, 2006 6:18 pm

Trielelvan wrote:I pray that all your family remains safe, Ganzo. :cry:
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Postby brinstar » Sat Jul 29, 2006 6:27 pm

Narrock wrote:That's bullshit and you know it. I really don't care to write long paragraphs about a subject unless it's something I feel really strong about. Re-read Lueyen's post. What I said pretty much sums it up: Christians have close religious ties with Jews, and Israel is a close ally of the U.S. That's it in a nutshell.



i never asked WHETHER israel was a close ally of the U.S., which is the question you keep answering. i fucking KNOW israel is a close ally of the U.S.! i wanted to know WHY that is the case. if you're not going to answer that for yourself, then don't fucking post.
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Postby Phlegm » Sat Jul 29, 2006 6:30 pm

brinstar wrote: i fucking KNOW israel is a close ally of the U.S.! i wanted to know WHY that is the case. if you're not going to answer that for yourself, then don't fucking post.


http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... srael.html


http://www.policyalmanac.org/world/arch ... ions.shtml
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Postby Narrock » Sat Jul 29, 2006 7:11 pm

brinstar wrote:
Narrock wrote:That's bullshit and you know it. I really don't care to write long paragraphs about a subject unless it's something I feel really strong about. Re-read Lueyen's post. What I said pretty much sums it up: Christians have close religious ties with Jews, and Israel is a close ally of the U.S. That's it in a nutshell.



i never asked WHETHER israel was a close ally of the U.S., which is the question you keep answering. i fucking KNOW israel is a close ally of the U.S.! i wanted to know WHY that is the case. if you're not going to answer that for yourself, then don't fucking post.


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