Election results

[Narrock]

He thinks Liberals are evil too though, Lyion. It's not so much he supports one side more than another, but he hates both sides equally.

Plus seeing you harp on someone for claiming to be a moderate is pretty funny to me.

Liberalism is indeed not only evil, but it is a severe mental disorder. All you have to do to understand this is listen to retards like Howard Dean, Cindy Sheehan, Michael Moore, Nancy Pelosi, Tom Daschle, Arriana Huffington, Dianne Feinstein, Barbara Boxer, and the like. These people are unequivocally clueless (and scary).

[Diekan]

He'll lose in Nov.

Maybe his website and get out the vote mailing list will be hacked the day of the election again, screwing him over.

Again, not sure why anyone cares. Especially people who hate W and are against the 'evil' war. Given this post:

I can't wait till that baboon is evicted from the White House. He and his war birthed from lies and deceit. God I can't wait for '08.

It seems like Lamont and you are on the same page. Joe agreed with the war, and it seems you are less moderate than you pretend to be.

Next, you'll be calling Cheney soulless and evil, while again saying you are moderate and complaining about partisanship.

I want a SMALL federal government with a lot more power for individual states. I want a checks and balance system to limit the final authority of the Supreme Court. I believe in a person's right to own fire arms. I think weed should be legal and abortion illegal. I want companies to be able to make a profit and to trade with whom ever they wish, yet I also want companies to be regulated when they get to big. I want lobbying to done away with - made illegal. I want teachers to stop spouting their political leanings in the classroom and teach fucking science, math, english and art. I also think the environment should be protected at all cost and if that means X company can't as much of a profit - to damn bad. I believe in the death penalty, but I also believe in judging each crime on its merits. Yet, I also think the jury system needs to be abolished as it is completely worthless.

That's just a snap shot of what I believe. As you can see there are beliefs from both sides.

George W Bush is an ineffective president. His foreign policies are a laughing joke - and his domestic policies are even worse.

Every time I hear about yet another civil liberty the GOP wants to take away in either the name of national security or profit I think of Nazi Germany and the all white all boys club now in Washington so resembles the mind set of the fascists of '30s and '40s.

I want you to name ONE thing the republican party has done to better the lives of the average American (you know the people who make up the vast majority of this country) over the course of the past 6 years. Seriously, Lyion... list something the GOP has done. They've stood by while our jobs have been are being shipped overseas, 50% of our income is taken from us in taxes, the environment is in trouble, Exxon and other big businesses are running wild with astronomical profits while we have schools who can't afford enough books for all their students, crime is through the roof... I could go on and on... I want to know why this man [W] deserves my support and backing.

Where I differ from Lamont is that I don't want to cut and run. We're there and now we can't leave until the job IS finished. I firmly believe we the people were lied to. Invading Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 - 9/11 was merely the excuse they needed. Am I glad Sadam is out of power and that his sons are dead? Yes. But, to lie to the world to achieve that goal is bullshit. Oh... we'll impeach Clinton because he got a blow job - but we're not interested in doing anything to an imbecile who invades a country through lies and deciet.

[Diekan]

He thinks Liberals are evil too though, Lyion. It's not so much he supports one side more than another, but he hates both sides equally.

Plus seeing you harp on someone for claiming to be a moderate is pretty funny to me.

Liberalism is indeed not only evil, but it is a severe mental disorder. All you have to do to understand this is listen to retards like Howard Dean, Cindy Sheehan, Michael Moore, Nancy Pelosi, Tom Daschle, Barbara Huffington, Dianne Feinstein, Barbara Boxer, and the like. These people are unequivocally clueless (and scary).

You're looking at the extremests of the group. Not all ideas from the left are bad.

Lieberman is good example of a good liberal. And, actually ole Hillary (despite everyone's dislike of her) isn't as left as Moore or Pelosi. Well, she will be by '08 or she won't have a chance to run.

[Narrock]

He thinks Liberals are evil too though, Lyion. It's not so much he supports one side more than another, but he hates both sides equally.

Plus seeing you harp on someone for claiming to be a moderate is pretty funny to me.

Liberalism is indeed not only evil, but it is a severe mental disorder. All you have to do to understand this is listen to retards like Howard Dean, Cindy Sheehan, Michael Moore, Nancy Pelosi, Tom Daschle, Barbara Huffington, Dianne Feinstein, Barbara Boxer, and the like. These people are unequivocally clueless (and scary).

You're looking at the extremests of the group. Not all ideas from the left are bad.

Lieberman is good example of a good liberal. And, actually ole Hillary (despite everyone's dislike of her) isn't as left as Moore or Pelosi. Well, she will be by '08 or she won't have a chance to run.

I think Hillary is a far-lefty posing as a moderate dem (wolf in sheep's clothing). Lieberman really isn't that liberal. I actually like the guy kinda.

What's funny about Howard Dean is that he's the biggest pussy on the planet. He keeps refusing interviews with Bill O' Reilly and Hannity & Colmes. It's a good thing he won't go on with Bill because Bill will call him out on all his bullshit and make him look like an even bigger fool.

[Diekan]

I disagree with Hillary being far left. If she were, she'd have shown her true colors by now. She's not a stupid woman despite what many may think. If you got anything out of last night's results, you should have seen that the extreme left has taken over the DNC. There "taking over" isn't something that happened over night, and if anyone knows this - it's Hillary.

I'm not saying I'd vote for her - but for some very strange reason I think I'd do her... anyway back to the point at hand. Knowing the direction the party was moving toward - she would have shown her extreme left leanings long ago. She didn't because she's not far left. But, I guarantee you that after seeing what happened to Lieberman over the past several weeks and last night because he dared disagree with the party on ONE issue - you can bet your ass she'll become more left.

Oh and Lieberman voted with the liberal agenda about 90% of the time.

[Narrock]

I disagree with Hillary being far left. If she were, she'd have shown her true colors by now. She's not a stupid woman despite what many may think. If you got anything out of last night's results, you should have seen that the extreme left has taken over the DNC. There "taking over" isn't something that happened over night, and if anyone knows this - it's Hillary.

I'm not saying I'd vote for her - but for some very strange reason I think I'd do her... anyway back to the point at hand. Knowing the direction the party was moving toward - she would have shown her extreme left leanings long ago. She didn't because she's not far left. But, I guarantee you that after seeing what happened to Lieberman over the past several weeks and last night because he dared disagree with the party on ONE issue - you can bet your ass she'll become more left.

Oh and Lieberman voted with the liberal agenda about 90% of the time.

I liked listening to Lieberman in interviews. He's not a far-left wacko, and that's why I think I can tolerate him. I know that Hillary is only posing as a moderate now, but you can bet your ass if she won the presidency she would side with far-left agendas.

[Diekan]

http://www.vote-smart.org/voting_catego ... d=WNY99268

Take a look at her voting record. It speaks for itself. YES - she is a liberal. NO - she's not Michael Moore left.

[Narrock]

Regardless of her voting history, I still don't trust her.

[Gaazy]

God I hate Michael Moore

[Lyion]

I'm going to avoid Quote Fu and just address all your points straight through.

Diekan, you sound almost libertarian in your views, which is very far from slightly left leaning. I'd wager I lean further left than you do, since I'm more of a hawk, but believe in some social liberalism.

Smaller Federal Government is against everything the DNC offers. They are the party of massive entitlements, regulations, and universal health care. They want more taxes and more spending, and wealth redistribution. It's easy to see how they vote, which is pretty much against every main point you made.

Unfortunately, the GOP has missed the boat on shrinking government, too, but they are the current lesser of two evils.

Abortion is the mainstay of the DNC. They fight hard for any restrictions to be tossed, even if 90% of Americans don't support them. That issue is fairly cut and dry.

I'm against the second amendment, as I've stated numerous times, but that is also firmly in the GOP side. The DNC is the anti gun lobby.

Lobbying is impossible to remove, unfortunately. The changes that have been made to campaign finance law have actually created bigger players from far spectrum groups like Moveon and the Swift Boaties. I think that's terrible, and I dislike the additional regulations which have proven really to do nothing.

The teachers union is huge with the DNC, so you seem to have covered all the main points of the DNC and said you are against pretty much all of them.

In regards to civil liberties, that's a different ball of wax. I have not seen anyone nor read anyone whose civil liberties have been hurt by the Patriot Act, and I think the vast majority of programs currently being implemented have good oversight and are fairly done. Of course, the very biased new organizations that have no problem leaking top secret info will try and spin things for political gain. I expect no less, but I would hope most people look at the facts and not the propaganda. Sure, you can google some lady who refused to show her ID on a bus, but is that really a civil liberties violation? This discussion is 99.9% hot air, and no actual factual support.

The war on Iraq is certainly a double edged sword and I respect anyone who thinks it was a bad idea. I have misigivings. I do not, however feel there was any lying or deciet there to start this. Congress voted on it with the exact same info. Joe Wilson's CIA funded DNC political trip has been proven to be the real deceit from the 9/11 commission, not that you could get any fair and decent reporting on it.

In regards to W, he's given strong leadership in a nasty time in our country and done some good <and bad, of course> things. Libya disarming is a result of our projection of power, no matter how the liberals falsely try to spin it. Islamic radicals are fighting in the Middle East, and there have been no attacks here since 9/11. The economy is booming, despite the bastard oil speculators and other major issues.

I certainly disagree with W on a lot of things, and loathe his spend and spend mindset which is the antithesis of how I think government should be run, but he is honest and you know where he stands on issues, and he won't sacrifice defense or principle for a poll, like others would. However, this is different from the lefties who despise him because he is a Republican in power, and one who they can't get to with their underhanded tactics, which can be seen anytime Howard Dean makes a speech.

Again, like many you miss the real issues. Clinton lied under oath, and misled people. Bush has not. It's ironic to see so many falsely call W a liar, and wrongly say Clinton was just harassed about a blow job. Was Bubba jobbed and treated wrongly by the GOP congress? Absolutely, but he also had no real repercussions for lying under oath and for numerous obvious scams. This is way different from W who is falsely attacked and lied about by both the media and DNC in a way that really would do the KGP propaganda department proud.

I want a SMALL federal government with a lot more power for individual states. I want a checks and balance system to limit the final authority of the Supreme Court. I believe in a person's right to own fire arms. I think weed should be legal and abortion illegal. I want companies to be able to make a profit and to trade with whom ever they wish, yet I also want companies to be regulated when they get to big. I want lobbying to done away with - made illegal. I want teachers to stop spouting their political leanings in the classroom and teach fucking science, math, english and art. I also think the environment should be protected at all cost and if that means X company can't as much of a profit - to damn bad. I believe in the death penalty, but I also believe in judging each crime on its merits. Yet, I also think the jury system needs to be abolished as it is completely worthless.

That's just a snap shot of what I believe. As you can see there are beliefs from both sides.

George W Bush is an ineffective president. His foreign policies are a laughing joke - and his domestic policies are even worse.

Every time I hear about yet another civil liberty the GOP wants to take away in either the name of national security or profit I think of Nazi Germany and the all white all boys club now in Washington so resembles the mind set of the fascists of '30s and '40s.

I want you to name ONE thing the republican party has done to better the lives of the average American (you know the people who make up the vast majority of this country) over the course of the past 6 years. Seriously, Lyion... list something the GOP has done. They've stood by while our jobs have been are being shipped overseas, 50% of our income is taken from us in taxes, the environment is in trouble, Exxon and other big businesses are running wild with astronomical profits while we have schools who can't afford enough books for all their students, crime is through the roof... I could go on and on... I want to know why this man [W] deserves my support and backing.

Where I differ from Lamont is that I don't want to cut and run. We're there and now we can't leave until the job IS finished. I firmly believe we the people were lied to. Invading Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 - 9/11 was merely the excuse they needed. Am I glad Sadam is out of power and that his sons are dead? Yes. But, to lie to the world to achieve that goal is bullshit. Oh... we'll impeach Clinton because he got a blow job - but we're not interested in doing anything to an imbecile who invades a country through lies and deciet.

[Arlos]

Liberalism is indeed not only evil, but it is a severe mental disorder.

Oh please. I'm a liberal, remember?

Funny, if believing that:

Adults have the right to behave as they wish in the privacy of their own homes, as long as it only involves other adults and everything is consensual

That providing for the education of anyone in society who cannot afford it is in society's best interest in the long run

That war should be a VERY LAST resort, not a pre-emptive strategy

That a civilized society has a duty and obligation to help out the less fortunate members of said society

That the health care system in this country is out of whack and needs fixing, including giving EVERYONE, regardless of socieo-economic status or employment type the opportunity to see a doctor when they need to without it putting them in debt for life

That we should have learned from Prohibition that banning substances doesn't work, and listened to the innumerable studies that show that education & treatment is 10x as effective as enforcement and incarceration if you really want people to stop using drugs

That Big Business has way too much behind-the-scenes power in this country, and something needs to be done to break its grip on Washington

That preserving the middle class is important, which means not catering to the richest 1% with massive tax breaks, and doing like Teddy Roosevelt and enacting programs that work to NARROW the wealth divide, not INCREASE it is important

That the rights of privacy and free expression as espoused in the Constitution FAR outweigh any "need" for extra "security" at the expense of basic freedoms

That the Environment is absolutely vital, and preserving it is more important than corporations making an extra 1% quarterly profit...



Well, if believing all that makes me a whacko... Well, sign me up for the rubber room brigade.

-Arlos

[Narrock]

Liberalism is indeed not only evil, but it is a severe mental disorder.

Oh please. I'm a liberal, remember?

Funny, if believing that:

Adults have the right to behave as they wish in the privacy of their own homes, as long as it only involves other adults and everything is consensual

That providing for the education of anyone in society who cannot afford it is in society's best interest in the long run

That war should be a VERY LAST resort, not a pre-emptive strategy

That a civilized society has a duty and obligation to help out the less fortunate members of said society

That the health care system in this country is out of whack and needs fixing, including giving EVERYONE, regardless of socieo-economic status or employment type the opportunity to see a doctor when they need to without it putting them in debt for life

That we should have learned from Prohibition that banning substances doesn't work, and listened to the innumerable studies that show that education & treatment is 10x as effective as enforcement and incarceration if you really want people to stop using drugs

That Big Business has way too much behind-the-scenes power in this country, and something needs to be done to break its grip on Washington

That preserving the middle class is important, which means not catering to the richest 1% with massive tax breaks, and doing like Teddy Roosevelt and enacting programs that work to NARROW the wealth divide, not INCREASE it is important

That the rights of privacy and free expression as espoused in the Constitution FAR outweigh any "need" for extra "security" at the expense of basic freedoms

That the Environment is absolutely vital, and preserving it is more important than corporations making an extra 1% quarterly profit...



Well, if believing all that makes me a whacko... Well, sign me up for the rubber room brigade.

-Arlos

I understand you're for absolute freedom, Arlos. However, most liberals have "freedom" totally convoluted. Your opening paragraph proves that. Even in your own home, there's certain things that shouldn't be legal (use your imagination to understand what I'm talking about). More freedom = less government intervention. Liberalism/socialism is heavily governmental-intervention supportive.

Yeah, it's great that in Canada, (let's talk about Canada for a moment) everybody has access to health care. But I pose this question... If I were a Canadian, why should I have to pay for somebody else's health care. Isn't Canada's social structure paid for by the tax payers, and their tax rate is through the roof? No thanks. My point is that we don't need that kind of mess here in America.

On the issue of environmentalism, I'm with you there. Everybody should play their part in conserving the environment. We should be looking into alternative fuel sources, and improving our existing exhaust emission technology.

About taxes in the U.S. The "wealthy" in America are paying the highest amount in taxes. The middle class is not getting screwed here. If you'd like to improve the lifestyle of the middle class, the answer is definitely not to tax them even more (which is what liberals are famous for... tax, tax, tax, tax & spend, tax, tax, tax... wash, rinse, repeat).

You talked about big business having power over the white house. We conservatives don't like that either. I'm disgusted with corporations like Enron and Halliburton. That is not a liberal/conservative issue though.

Now, you say that a civilized society has the duty and obligation to take care of those less fortunate?????? OMFG I can't believe you actually said that. Actually, I do believe it. Hey, we are a capitalistic society. Nobody should have to take care of anybody else. God gave you the tools you need to make it in this life, and if you don't use those tools to your advantage, then don't go crying to the government for handouts or expect the rest of us to pay your way through life.

Anyone can get an education. There are tons of government programs that will help you get a higher education, or help you develop new skills that will make you a more productive member of society and have a better income. Many of those programs are free, some are low-interest loans. If you want it... go get it. It's there for you.

I'm not even going to get into the Prohibition-banning-substances-doesn't-work argument. I highly disagree with you there, and it's moot to argue about it.

And finally WAR. War is necessary sometimes, friend. We have the power and resources to keep certain wacky governments in check, and we absolutely should utilize that power. To not utilize that power would be irresponsible and a total waste of resources. Iran and N. Korea are perfect examples of why we need to step in do what we can, let alone helping poor little Israel defend itself against the tyrannical arabs. If we sat back and did nothing, things would be much worse. Trust me on that one.

[Arlos]

I understand you're for absolute freedom, Arlos. However, most liberals have "freedom" totally convoluted. Your opening paragraph proves that. Even in your own home, there's certain things that shouldn't be legal (use your imagination to understand what I'm talking about). More freedom = less government intervention. Liberalism/socialism is heavily governmental-intervention supportive.

Well, I disagree with you on certain things should be illegal, with the caveat that everyone involved needs to be a) an adult and b) consenting. Children are not adults and cannot give consent. Animals likewise cannot. Non-consentual actions are coercion and likewise extremely wrong. But beyond that, Government has NO right to dictate to you what you may or may not do in your private life. If that seperates me from my liberal brethren, so be it.

Yeah, it's great that in Canada, (let's talk about Canada for a moment) everybody has access to health care. But I pose this question... If I were a Canadian, why should I have to pay for somebody else's health care.

Because someday it might be YOU needing the health care? I used to make really good money and have insurance, then got laid off, and lost it, because paying rent was more important. Then, I got a staph infection in my leg and nearly lost the entire leg because I waited for a long time to come in because I didn't want to pay for the doctor bills. Had we had universal health care, I could've had it taken care of with just some take home pills, rather than a > 1 week hospital stay where they had to give me morphine cause the pain from the infection got so bad.

About taxes in the U.S. The "wealthy" in America are paying the highest amount in taxes. The middle class is not getting screwed here. If you'd like to improve the lifestyle of the middle class, the answer is definitely not to tax them even more

I never said to tax the middle class more. However, I am FIRMLY against tax cuts for the wealthy. What do you think the tax cut for dividend income was for? You think that benefits the poor, or even most of the middle class? How about estate taxes? So far under Bush, the richest 1% has seen its taxes cut MASSIVELY, while other sectors have seen minimal or none at all.

Now, you say that a civilized society has the duty and obligation to take care of those less fortunate?????? OMFG I can't believe you actually said that. Actually, I do believe it. Hey, we are a capitalistic society. Nobody should have to take care of anybody else. God gave you the tools you need to make it in this life, and if you don't use those tools to your advantage, then don't go crying to the government for handouts or expect the rest of us to pay your way through life.

Note that I'm not talking about someone perfectly healthy and able to work being able to sit there and do nothing but watch Spongebob all day on the public's dime. But I DEFINITELY feel that there is a moral and ethical obligation in a civilized society to help those who are unfortunate or disadvantaged.

Say a guy has worked all his life as a janitor, and thus hasn't been able to save much. He's now 70, has to retire. His wife gets cancer, and they have to blow what savings they DO have on her health bills, but she dies anyway. He's now broke and 70. In YOUR version of society, with no help for the poor, what does he do, starve? Freeze to death under a freeway bridge? Sorry, but that's unacceptible.

What about the guy who, as I mentioned elsewhere, is mildly retarded, and has an IQ of 90? He can handle day to day life OK, but he's not going to progress much beyond minimum wage, and thus isn't ever going to get more than a paycheck or so ahead. What if where he works closes down, and he can't find work quickly enough, and can't pay rent?

There's very frequently real very good reasons why people need help, and just saying they should better themelves gets us nowhere. Indeed, it gets us to where we are today: tens of thousands of people, even FAMILIES who live on the streets because they can't afford a place to live. That's unconscionable, and should be unacceptable to anyone who doesn't have flint in place of a heart.

Anyone can get an education. There are tons of government programs that will help you get a higher education, or help you develop new skills that will make you a more productive member of society and have a better income. Many of those programs are free, some are low-interest loans. If you want it... go get it. It's there for you.

Speaking as someone who is DOING exactly that, I can guarantee you that the amount of money you can get for this is functionally a pittance. Every dollar you earn from work study is 1 dollar less they will give you as grant funds. Grant money available has shrunken every year, AS has loan money. Also, college loan interest rates have more than doubled within the last year or two. You may have read about Bush's budget slashing college funding, trust me, it's true, and I am feeling it, big time.

I'm not even going to get into the Prohibition-banning-substances-doesn't-work argument. I highly disagree with you there, and it's moot to argue about it.

Well, I still see no fundamental difference between 1 addictive and harmful intoxicating substance over another. Yes, there are long-term harmful effects to abuse of pot. Guess what, the long term harmful effects of alcohol and tobacco use are MUCH worse. I furthermore see this as part of the personal freedom area. If I want to poison myself in my own home, the government should have no right to tell me no, as long as it's ONLY my own self I'm doing it to.

And finally WAR. War is necessary sometimes, friend.

Oh, I understand that completely. Have you ever once seen me complain about us invading Afghanistan? Sure, I'll complain about HOW we did it, because it was fucking incompetant, but never once have I said one negative word about GOING.

Iraq, however, was NOT necessary. The whole case for going was built on a tissue of lies, and 9/11 merely provided the excuse that Cheney and PNAC had been looking for for years to let them engage in the invasion of Iraq they'd been advocating since what, 96?

So let me repeat: I am not against legitimate wars, as a last resort. Iraq, however, was neither.

-Arlos

[Narrock]

I understand where you're coming from Arlos. Oh, and I know about school loans. My Sallie Mae loan for $11k is fixed at 5.25%. Not too shabby. I also got my trucking school completely paid for by SETA/WIA. Do I feel bad? Hell no. I've been paying taxes for so long (just like everybody else) that I feel I paid for it anyway with my own personal tax dollars. :P

[Ginzburgh]

These threads are gay.

[Gaazy]

I usually stay out of this kind of shit, because I really dont know shit about shit in politics. The only issue I will comment on, is welfare. I DO feel we should help the disadvantaged, but as you kind of said, theres a difference between disadvantaged and plain fucking lazy in my eyes. I would like to see an actual percentage of how many people "get the check" actually need it. How many of those people that are getting that check and buying crackrocks and that sort with it. I do acknowledge there are people who really, truely need help. Make em take monthly drug tests before they can pick up the check or something, jesus.

Im just sick of seeing people around here who are completely capable of getting a job, and it may be a damn shitty one (McDonalds and Wal Mart will hire damn near anyone), but still yet, they can get one. Hell, around here you can spot 130 bucks and take a 80 hour class to get certified to work in the coal mines and start at 22 bucks an hour. Ive done it before and its grueling and dangerous work, but hell its a job and they will hire anyone who has a high school diploma and can pass a drug test.

[Diekan]

There should be no reason why anyone in this country should have to go without medical care, period.

America's health care system has fallen victim to the usual suspect here, greed. Whether it's some high priced Harvard MBA working for an HMO deciding the medical fate of people based on a business model, or an over priced private practice physician... it all boils down to one thing... money.

Speaking of over priced doctors - I do recall the hippocratic oath reading, "I will apply dietetic measures for the benefit of the sick according to my ability and judgment; I will keep them from harm and injustice." NOT - "I will apply dietetic measures for the benefit of those who can afford my astronomical fees."

Before one of you goes off the handle completely misunderstanding what I am saying... I'm not talking about the costs of getting a new rack, or hair plugs, or any other frivolous bullshit you can live quite confortably without. I'm talking about the costs of cancer and AIDS treatments... you know... the diseases that are killing thousands of your neighbors each year.

Why should the rich be the only ones who get the best of the best treatment? Why should some poor bastard be denied access to the same treatments because he spent his life hammering nails instead of fucking his secretary in between sessions of insider trading? I think you get the point.

Oh and speaking of all this college money at our finger tips... haha... Allow me to point you to HR300, which would have increased the Pell Grant. Guess what? It was shot down by the GOP. While it got full support from the Democrats and the one Independent in the Senate (Sen Jeffords) every single Republican voted NO.

So, while tuition continues to rise the GOP doesn't want you to get some of YOUR tax money back in more Pell. No, the cocksucking fascists would rather you go even further into debt by taking loan after loan.

Or, how about HR3010 - an amendment that would have sent more money to elementary and secondary education institutes. Guess who shot it down again, unanomously? Yep, the GOP. I guess schools who can't afford to put books in all the hands of the students will just have to continue making them share... I guess schools who have classrooms in shambles due to lack of money needed to repair them will have to stay in disarray.

As for welfare. Ok, here's the deal. I drive through part da hood on my way to and from work every day. I SEE the shlops standing at the bus stop talking in their Razor cell's, wearing 200 dollar tennis shoes... I KNOW they are perfectly capable of working, but the don't. Instead WE foot the bill for them... that IS bullshit and I'm tired of it. While I have no problem helping those with a real need, I do think liberals tend to go to far in passing out free handouts.

Mindia, with all the money you pay in taxes, why in the hell SHOULD you be forced to take loans in that amount for an education that ultimately is only going to help the country in the long run?

As long as the Nazi... errr I mean the Republican party is in power we [the average American] are going to continue getting fucked directly in the ass.

I don't hate ALL Republicans - I do actually like McCain and a few others whom I think are honest and decent people. I just think most of them would just as soon put us free thinkers in concentration camps than deal with our questioning their actions.

[Narrock]

Diekan wrote:

Mindia, with all the money you pay in taxes, why in the hell SHOULD you be forced to take loans in that amount for an education that ultimately is only going to help the country in the long run?

Good question.

[Arlos]

Mindia, I am glad you can see where I am coming from in a lot of what I was saying, even if you disagree on some components of it.

Ultimately, what I was trying to demonstrate by example is to give you some insights into the background and throught processes of at least ONE liberal, so that maybe you'd see that at least some of us have very strongly held beliefs and reasons why we ARE liberals.

Your general reaction to liberals and liberalism is that you think they're out to destroy this country, or something similar. Well, at least from my perspective, that couldn't be further from the truth. In my case anyway, many of my beliefs arise out of having as much or even more concern about my fellow citizen and fellow man than I have about myself. I'd gladly take on more tax burden, when I can afford it, so that some 6 year old girl wouldn't have to go hungry and live on the streets because her parents are out of work, or that some poor kid from a bad neighborhood could actually go to college.

Anyway, I consider myself a leftist, but I don't consider myself in any way insane or deranged. I even consider myself a patriot, though I'm patirotic towards the ideals of this nation, and not its current status. That's why I simply don't leave; I feel that it is possible to someday get us to where we SHOULD be. The longer Bush and his current republican cronies in DC are in power, however, the more that hope fades.

-Arlos

[Narrock]

I know you're not insane. :P

[Harrison]

The way I see most liberals is like this:

"The road to hell is paved in good intentions."

[Zanchief]

The way I see most liberals is like this:

"The road to hell is paved in good intentions."

That's funny cause the way I see conservatives is:

"The road to heaven is paved with hypocrisy and double standards."

But since neither heaven nor hell have any business in the government let's just stick to good intentions.

[Spazz]

If thats how you see liberals harri how do you see conservitives ?

[Narrock]

I'll tell you how I see conservatives: Always striving for the higher moral ground; fighting for what is best for the people and the Nation as a whole; placing faith and trust in God; upholding the Constitution, and continuing to honor and respect our founding fathers' intentions; fighting terrorists at home and abroad to keep our country, our people, and our economic interests protected; making sure no child is left behind; enforcing and protecting our borders; treating our senior citizens with respect.

[Diekan]

I agree that war should be the very last resort, however, when dealing with people like bin Laden... I think it necessary to just go in after him.

I'm not sure a liberal run government would have done the same after 9/11. Would Gore, for example, have sent in the 101st and the 75th Rangers, or just fired a couple of Tomahawks into Af and called it a day?

Another position I disagree with the liberals on is with the UN. I think the UN should just go fuck themselves. We pump billions of dollars into that worthless organization and all we get in return is condemnation after condemnation.

I believe we should build and maintain a rather large and strong military - a position opposite of many liberals. Notice I said many liberals - not all. Not all liberals want to gut and or do-away-with the military. It's a shame the mouth pieces of the left are made up of jackasses like John Murtha.

I DO think the conservatives are bit stronger where international national security is concerned. Meaning, I think they're quicker to recognize real threats to our security from abroad and are willing to "push the button" to deal with those situations. I think the left tends to appease too much, which can be a dangerous thing.

I realize that the most dangerous threat to our freedom lies WITHIN our boarders. Peaple like Kizzy who don't vote or even care what happens in D.C. using the excuse that you "can't do anything anyway" are a serious threat, but more so the real dangers are big business and the government who looks after their interestes more so than our welfare.

This coming election - you watch and see the GOP (Grand Oil Party) will cash in the national security chip to win votes.

That's all the have people. That's it. Their work on the domestic side of the house is absolutely horrible. All they have to stay in power is fear. They hope to scare the American people into keeping them into power.

"Do you want your national security in our hands, or the hands of the left?" That's their marketing scheme... Do you think it's just coincidence that all the talk shows and Fox News run, practically 24/7, terrorism, war, fear, fear, fear and how the republicans are working ever so hard to protect you?