Nuclear Weapons

[Thon]

I'm curious what people think about the proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, specifically why Iran should be denied the ability to make them.

The U.S. has tens of thousands of nuclear missles, and we're the only nation to ever use them on people. We've only existed for a few centuries as a country, and we're telling a people who've been around about as long as civilization has that they don't have the right to make them. It's tantamount to Napolean telling Russia their army cannot use artillery.

To further the hypocrisy, Israel has a nuclear arsenal, and just expanded it by buying two nuclear powered submarines capable of launching nukes. Both India & Pakistan have nuclear weapons, hate each other, and the US conducts various arms deals with both countries. There are also accusations that Pakistan supported or at least didn't hinder the terrorists who just attacked India. North Korea is also a nuclear power, and if their missles can't hit the U.S. already, it won't be many more years before they can.

The only possible reasoning to deny Iran nuclear weapons, is that they'll give it to terrorists to attack Israel, the U.S., or it's allies. And i find that highly doubtful. Throughout the Cold War, the Soviets equipped various armies and guerrilla forces to fight America(cuba, vietnam, etc). We did the exact same thing in Afghanistan, arming Osama Bin Laden. Iran also armed and supported Hezbollah.

But never have any of the backer countries handed out nukes. It's the trump card, and not something you hand to your pawn(s). It represents the pinnacle of power, and to my recollection no two nuclear powers have ever engaged in war, at least not open war. There is also too great a chance that there will be evidence found about who supplied the nuclear weapon. At which point the supplier nation will wake up in the stone age.

So again, why is it not ok for Iran to have nuclear weapons. While it's fine for the U.S. and various other countries to stockpile enough to nuke every capital on earth 10 times over?

[Arlos]

If you want the legalistic reason, it's because Iran is currently a signatory to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, and Israel is not.

This is a treaty worked up in the 50s between all of the then-nuclear powers that they asked the rest of the world to sign. Effectively, it stated that only those already with nuclear weapons would get to have them. The carrot for everyone else is that the nuclear powers would assist them in getting nuclear power plants running, for the purposes of cheap power, etc.

For 2nd and 3rd world nations, the carrot of cheap power is actually rather large, since lack of infrastructure is often their biggest hurdle to overcome. Developing your own nuclear technology is hideously expensive, so getting given the blueprints to a nuke plant, and having monetary and technical assistance in building it helps them a lot. In return, they agree to not develop nuclear weapons.

Almost all of the countries in the world are signatories to the treaty, actually. I know Israel is not, and at this point I think India, Pakistan are not as well, and North Korea keeps threatening to pull out of it, if they haven't already.

I don't know if there's provisions in the treaty to create negatives for nations that don't sign up or not. Can't be much if Israel has gone without signing for this long.

Still, the treaty has been reasonably effective at limiting the growth of nuclear armed nations. To date only 3 nations: Israel, Pakistan and India are known to have developed nukes on their own since the treaty was instituted in the 50s after China developed its own nukes.

-Arlos

[Yamori]

The fact that Iran's government is an insane religious dictatorship, and one of the largest known backers of terrorist organizations, is a good reason why everything possible should be done to prevent/deny them from getting nuclear capability...

[Harrison]

The only possible reasoning to deny Iran nuclear weapons, is that they'll give it to terrorists to attack Israel, the U.S., or it's allies. And i find that highly doubtful. Throughout the Cold War, the Soviets equipped various armies and guerrilla forces to fight America(cuba, vietnam, etc). We did the exact same thing in Afghanistan, arming Osama Bin Laden. Iran also armed and supported Hezbollah.

Apples and oranges...

Arming them doesn't mean the same as giving them a nuke, or the technology to develop one.

[Diekan]

The fact that Iran's government is an insane religious dictatorship, and one of the largest known backers of terrorist organizations, is a good reason why everything possible should be done to prevent/deny them from getting nuclear capability...

[Thon]

as per backing terrorists, it really is no different than what we as a country have done. We heavily supported Osama Bin Laden when he was fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan. Arming his Jihadists with advanced shoulder mounted anti-air, and anti-tank missles to fuck over the Russian occupation.

If that's your reasoning, then the U.S. shouldn't have nuclear weapons either. Since i guarantee you we've spent more $ backing terrorists like him than the Iranians have.


The nuclear non-proliferation treaty is a valid point, but what happens when a country develops to the point where it can support its own independant nuclear program. A lot can, and has changed in 50 years.

[Diekan]

No one should have nukes, but it's a little late now. It's too bad that humanity can't simply take adavantage of a new technology without warping it into a grotesque perversion.

With this bullshit "War" on Terror, which by the way doesn't exist, you'd think we'd have already dealt with the real threats (e.g. Iran and Syria). Iran building a fully functional nuclear weapon is a bad idea.

So, what's the real difference here? A country like France isn't going to "push the button" in a bold attempt to wipe out the infidels on a practical whim.

Nuclear weapons are really meant to serve as a deterent, being used only in a last and final ditch effort (since the resulting nuclear winter will wipe out all life anyway - well most life as we know it). We know this, Europe knows this, even the Russians know this... but psychos of the like running Iran will use them to further their agenda - death to all non-Muslims.

What I'm failing to understand is that since we're at "War" with Terrorism and considering the real threat posed by Iran and its nuclear program - why the fuck are we not taking action? Oh... I forgot... we're only interested in terrorists who happen to be on Iraqi soil.

[Narrock]

The fact that Iran's government is an insane religious dictatorship, and one of the largest known backers of terrorist organizations, is a good reason why everything possible should be done to prevent/deny them from getting nuclear capability...

[Lueyen]

What I'm failing to understand is that sinse we're at "War" with Terrorism and considering the real threat posed by Iran and its nuclear program - why the fuck are we not taking action? Oh... I forgot... we're only interested in terrorists who happen to be on Iraqi soil.

China is a big reason we haven't done anything more aggressive concering N. Korea or Iran. We all know Iran was supplying Hezbollah, what isn't talked about much is that they were supplying them with Chinese made weapons.

[Diekan]

At this point in time, China isn't going to much more than blow a lot of hot if we decided to attack Iran. Money > all - even for countries like China who do indeed depend largely on the United States' markets.

If given the choice between standing by while the US attacks Iran, or jeapordizing their financial ties with us - I'd bet quite confidently they'd stay out of our way.

[Minrott]

I don't see any reason to (arrogantly) tell any country they can't have the same means to the deterent defense that the rest of the 1st world enjoys. Tantamount to gun control as far as I'm concerned.

And hell, I live in Wisconsin. If any jihad boys are going to nuke us with shit they got from Iran, it'll be NYC or LA, Miami or San Fran, and frankly I don't give (much of) a fuck.

[Zanchief]

I thought you were avidly against gun control.

[Minrott]

I am, that's the point. I don't like the idea of the UN pontificating to sovereign(sp) nations whether or not they may have this weapon or that.

[Harrison]

WHOLE different story...comparing nuclear capabilities to small arms is scarily fucked up.

When you shoot at a cop he will shoot back.

When he shoots back, the guy one block over isn't going to launch a mortar barrage at the police station.

[Thon]

About as scarily fucked up as comparing two countries to a cop and guy one block over. The US isn't a cop, and Iran isn't some guy down the street. They're an independant country trying to develop the same weapons that all the major powers have. Most of the countries telling them they can't make them, already have them. Every permanent member of the UN security council has nuclear weapons.

If all countries had nuclear weapons, it would truly mean the end of war. Either no one would attack each other, or some nut would. And you'd have the Apocalypse, with no more humanity, there'd be no more war.

[Narrock]

About as scarily fucked up as comparing two countries to a cop and guy one block over. The US isn't a cop, and Iran isn't some guy down the street. They're an independant country trying to develop the same weapons that all the major powers have. Most of the countries telling them they can't make them, already have them. Every permanent member of the UN security council has nuclear weapons.

If all countries had nuclear weapons, it would truly mean the end of war. Either no one would attack each other, or some nut would. And you'd have the Apocalypse, with no more humanity, there'd be no more war.

The point is that Iran's current leadership is genocide-minded. They are crazy and dangerous. That's why they don't get to have nuclear weapons.

[Minrott]

Yeah, says you. And who told you?

I call bullshit.

[Arlos]

A friend of mine, and my lab partner in a couple CS classes now is originally from Iran. He went back there this summer, and was there for a couple months straight. From what he says, the average individual citizen over there LOVES america and americans, at least among the people he met.

No doubt the government is anti-American, and I'm sure there's at least a small subset of fanatical anti-american people in the population. However, trying to claim that everyone over there hates the US is completely inaccurate, at least from the first-hand information I've been told.

-Arlos

[Spazz]

They hate us for our freedoms and must not be allowed to have nukes or else they will give them to osama bin laden who will use them on the children. Every arab hates every american and would kill them if they could this is a fact.

[Narrock]

Yeah, says you. And who told you?

I call bullshit.

You haven't heard the quotes from Mahmoud Ahmadinejad? He's one crazy fooker.

[Jay]

They hate us for our freedoms and must not be allowed to have nukes or else they will give them to osama bin laden who will use them on the children. Every arab hates every american and would kill them if they could this is a fact.

There's nothing I can say that hasn't been said before.

[Harrison]

A friend of mine, and my lab partner in a couple CS classes now is originally from Iran. He went back there this summer, and was there for a couple months straight. From what he says, the average individual citizen over there LOVES america and americans, at least among the people he met.

No doubt the government is anti-American, and I'm sure there's at least a small subset of fanatical anti-american people in the population. However, trying to claim that everyone over there hates the US is completely inaccurate, at least from the first-hand information I've been told.

-Arlos

Iran's populace wants to be more western-like. Iran's Government is a Theocracy under Sharia Law.

Iran will topple from the bottom up if we were to set it up properly. (again)

[Minrott]

hehe. Sure. Then when it doesn't happen perfectly before the people actually realize they might have to suffer a little bit while going through a revolution, they turn on us 100%. Nah think we can let that one happen on it's own.

[Lyion]

Point of No Return?
By Thomas Sowell

It is hard to think of a time when a nation -- and a whole civilization -- has drifted more futilely toward a bigger catastrophe than that looming over the United States and western civilization today.

Nuclear weapons in the hands of Iran and North Korea mean that it is only a matter of time before there are nuclear weapons in the hands of international terrorist organizations. North Korea needs money and Iran has brazenly stated its aim as the destruction of Israel -- and both its actions and its rhetoric suggest aims that extend even beyond a second Holocaust.

Send not to know for whom the bell tolls. It tolls for thee.

This is not just another in the long history of military threats. The Soviet Union, despite its massive nuclear arsenal, could be deterred by our own nuclear arsenal. But suicide bombers cannot be deterred.

Fanatics filled with hate cannot be either deterred or bought off, whether Hezbollah, Hamas or the government of Iran.

The endlessly futile efforts to bring peace to the Middle East with concessions fundamentally misconceive what forces are at work.

Hate and humiliation are key forces that cannot be bought off by "trading land for peace," by a "Palestinian homeland" or by other such concessions that might have worked in other times and places.

Humiliation and hate go together. Why humiliation? Because a once-proud, dynamic culture in the forefront of world civilizations, and still carrying a message of their own superiority to "infidels" today, is painfully visible to the whole world as a poverty-stricken and backward region, lagging far behind in virtually every field of human endeavor.

There is no way that they can catch up in a hundred years, even if the rest of the world stands still. And they are not going to wait a hundred years to vent their resentments and frustrations at the humiliating position in which they find themselves.

Israel's very existence as a modern, prosperous western nation in their midst is a daily slap across the face. Nothing is easier for demagogues than to blame Israel, the United States, or western civilization in general for their own lagging position.

Hitler was able to rouse similar resentments and fanaticism in Germany under conditions not nearly as dire as those in most Middle East countries today. The proof of similar demagogic success in the Middle East is all around.

What kind of people provide a market for videotaped beheadings of innocent hostages? What kind of people would throw an old man in a wheelchair off a cruise liner into the sea, simply because he was Jewish? What kind of people would fly planes into buildings to vent their hate at the cost of their own lives?

These are the kinds of people we are talking about getting nuclear weapons. And what of ourselves?

Do we understand that the world will never be the same after hate-filled fanatics gain the ability to wipe whole American cities off the face of the earth? Do we still imagine that they can be bought off, as Israel was urged to buy them off with "land for peace" -- a peace that has proved to be wholly illusory?

Even ruthless conquerors of the past, from Genghis Khan to Adolf Hitler, wanted some tangible gains for themselves or their nations -- land, wealth, dominion. What Middle East fanatics want is the destruction and humiliation of the west.

Their treatment of hostages, some of whom have been humanitarians serving the people of the Middle East, shows that what the terrorists want is to inflict the maximum pain and psychic anguish on their victims before killing them.

Once these fanatics have nuclear weapons, those victims can include you, your children and your children's children.

The terrorists need not start out by wiping our cities off the map. Chances are they would first want to force us to humiliate ourselves in whatever ways their sadistic imaginations could conceive, out of fear of their nuclear weapons.

After we, or our children and grandchildren, find ourselves living at the mercy of people with no mercy, what will future generations think of us, that we let this happen because we wanted to placate "world opinion" by not acting "unilaterally"?

We are fast approaching the point of no return.

[Thon]

so...do you have any thoughts on the matter? or do you prefer to let some right wing author do your thinking for you.