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by **Langston** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 8:13 pm

You could very well be right, Tossica.

by **Thon** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 8:18 pm

And what exactly do you think their response would have been? What if someone told YOU that you can't drive faster than 65 mph till the year 4500AD... would you even consider worrying or thinking about it? Would you not be confused?

no, if God told me not to drive faster than 65 mph till the year 4500 AD, then i sure as hell wouldn't drive faster than 65 mph. i don't see anything confusing about that.

My *personal* opinion is that the Bible is full of about 25% history, 25% conjecture, and 50% parable. Many events outlined in the Bible have been proven by archaeological record - many many have NOT been... and no, I do not believe then entire Earth was covered in water - but I do believe that there was a message that was more important to that story than whether or not Noah's house got flooded.

so some of the bible is true, nobody has disputed that. there was a roman empire, they did nail people to crosses. but there's also a Kansas, which you can travel to, that doesn't mean there is a wizard living in an emerald city.

i'm actually flabbergasted that you say part of the bible is conjecture. do you ever go more than one post without shooting yourself in the foot and wheeling around on your posistions?

by **Langston** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 8:25 pm

How have I changed my position?

by **Harrison** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 8:37 pm

I think Tossica brought up a worthwhile topic.

I was always afraid to see or experience something because people would put me in a padded cell.

Hell, Ive seen a UFO and people call me retarded to this day.

by **Thon** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 8:38 pm

we've been arguing the contents of the bible for a while now, and you've been using it to support your side the entire thread.

and now you've said you feel that part of the bible is guesswork, that those who wrote it/edited it did so to what they 'think' god wants.

you've even compared god with laws of electricity. if god can create the universe and its laws he can certainly get his will across.

edit - spelling/comprehension

by **Tossica** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 8:50 pm

Well Thon, guess what!? The lord works in mysterious ways! He throws doubt in to the mix to test his true followers.

Face it. Even if eventually it's proven that there is no god, there is no "afterlife" etc, there will still be retards arguing about the existence of such things just because they have "faith" that they exist.

by **Minrott** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 8:55 pm

Have faith in the Badgers pls.

by **Langston** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 8:58 pm

hmm... Thon - I haven't been backing my whole argument on Biblical text... I've mentioned a number of times how laws have changed afterwards.

by **Tossica** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 9:04 pm

Ugzug you have been defending the bible as the word of god and now you say it's some rough interpretation of what gods word "might" be, written by man.

by **Dylan** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 9:44 pm

Unfortunately the words that make the most sense out of any preaches or random bullshit spewing from anyone about religon came from the movie Dogma, where the muse says that God doesn't care what you have faith in, as long as you have faith in something, that makes a whole shitload more sense than any stuff some guy wrote down a couple thousand years ago interpreting what the Almighty may, or may not have actually said or done.

Example: If you're trying to convince a friend who has never played paintball before to come and play with you, do you tell him/her that it hurts like a bitch if you get hit on bareskin or do you tell them that it isn't going to hurt at all just to get them to come play, and let them find out from experience that it hurts.

Is it not possible they wrote down these things in the bible to seem easier and missed out on some things in the process? Plus I don't believe any of these writers spoke english so theres things that are lost in translation as well.

Example: You don't change the sentence from English "I want to go to the movies today" to "Ich will zu geht nach kino heute" in German it comes out to "Ich will in der kino heute gehen" which comes over and translate to English " I want in the movies today go" It just doesn't make sense so you have to change it around see?

and if anyone speaks German I can't remember if its der Kino or das Kino.. so if anyone could help me out lol..

by **Narrock** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 1:30 am

Arlos, since your post is so long, and I want to address each issue you've presented, I'll quote you and respond paragraph by paragraph.

Oh goody, Minidia is basing the anti-homosexual ranting on a prohibition given in Leviticus. Lets look at the Bible, shall we? Lets stick with the King James version, since that's been the standard reference version for a very long time, shall we? OK, sure, in Leviticus 18:22, it does indeed say "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." So, it would appear that if we are indeed going strictly by Leviticus, lesbian relationships are NOT covered, and are perfectly OK, it just talks about men screwing men being a big no-no. Remember, we're doing strict reading of the bible here, so no adding clauses or re-interpretations, you gotta go just on the words there, and nothing whatsoever about women-women is mentioned.

Let's take a look at what it says in Romans 1:25-27 (NIV) "They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator - who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

Well, back when I was in high school and was having to go to Catholic Church (hey, Mindia, Catholics were the ORIGINAL christians. ALL protestant religions are descendants from Catholicism. What do you think "Protestant" comes from? Protesting against statuates of CATHOLIC religion. Martin Luther was a catholic at the time he nailed up his list on the church.), I put some money in the collection plate, thus "bringing an offering unto the LORD". Uh oh, Leviticus 1:2 says that if I want to make an offering, it has to be "of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock." Hrm. Do you think I'm damned for not following Leviticus in this instance? Should I have walked into mass with a cow, instead of 5 bucks? Please help instruct me here.

Hi, I'm well aware of how Protestants came into existence, thanks. Let's take a look at your cow vs. 5 bucks question... You can bring in money instead of cattle or grain or fruit. In fact this is exressed in Deuteronomy 14:22 (KJV) "Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year." I hope your comprehension skills allow you to understand that this passage = MONEY, NOT PHYSICAL SEED. Use your noggin. Here's another example: Leviticus 27:32 (KJV) "And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD'S: it is holy unto the Lord."

Uh oh, I just noticed another problem. A few days ago, I had a steak which had some fat on it, and I ate the fat. Oh, and I also recently had a french dip sandwich, with the au jus dip. Unfortunately, according to Leviticus 3:17, "It shall be a perpetual statute for your generations throughout all your dwellings, that ye eat neither fat nor blood." And there I went eating both, eek! Actually, they bring up eating fat and/or blood a lot in leviticus, so it must be especially heinous. It's in there 4-5 times, so it must be MUCH worse than sleeping with another guy. So, Mindia, when should I expect the lightning bolt from on high to smote me down for daring to break such a inviolate commandment?

God is gracious, loving and forgiving. I'm not 100% legalistic. If He were to smite us every time we sinned we'd all be dead by now wouldn't we? However, I think Christians should follow His commands as best we can. How hypocritical it would be of us to knowingly continue to commit sins when we have the decision-making ability to abstain from sinning.

Hrm, reading through more Leviticus, I wonder if god favors butchers, cause there's a TON of clauses on which parts of an animal to cut up and give the priests. Lots of burning fat and kidneys, and which parts to give the priests, etc. Boy, yes, we sure do follow lots of these nowadays. Every church I go into is burning sheep kidneys on the altar, or at least all the TRULY holy ones do, right?

ROFL this entire paragraph has me in stitches.

Uh oh, now I'm really in trouble, reading Leviticus 11. Leviticus 11:6 says "And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you." I've had rabbit before. Hrm. Now, Leviticus 11:7 says "And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you." Hrm, I guess those baby-back ribs I had the other night were terribly evil. Yoiks, now we have a TWIN prohibition! Leviticus 11:10 "And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you" and 11:12 "Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you." I've had shrimp and clam before. BOTH of those are an abominations, apparently just as bad as gay sex, another abomination! I must be doomed! DOOMED!

Did I say that gays are doomed to burn in hell? I merely pointed out passages in the Bible which specifically condemns homosexuality and defines it as "immoral." Now going to the unclean animals... Why do you think God commands that we not eat certain animals? Shellfish are scavengers and eat decaying flesh, fecal matter, and anything else they can find. Their flesh is comprised of what they've been eating. Swines wallow around in mud and will also eat just about anything they can find. Pigs still have dangerous diseases (like brucellosis, trichinosis, and cysticercosis) still in our day and age. There's a good reason why we shouldn't eat certain animals.

So, Mindia, ever slept in the same bed as a girlfriend who was having a period? You are UNCLEAN, as per Leviticus 15:19! Hrm, anyone ever had a shirt that was made partly of linen and partly of wool? That too is forbidden, as per Leviticus 19:19! Hrm, Anyone shaped their beard? That is FORBIDDEN by 19:27! Know anyone who's slept around on their spouse? Did you stone them to death? Why not, you were supposed to, as per Leviticus 20:10, why did you fail in your duty? Ever heard someone swear at "the LORD"? According to Leviticus 24:16 you're supposed to take them out and stone them. Why didn't you?

Stoning was a system of keeping law and order for certain crimes back then. We just don't do that anymore.

Ooooh, it says I can have slaves, as long as they're heathen, in Leviticus 25:44. Where do you think I might get some? Do you think the authorities might object to me buying slaves, even heathen ones? If they do, shouldn't they stop objecting once I show them that passage in leviticus? Do you own any, since you're allowed?

You're being silly here.

So hrm, that's an awful lot of Leviticus rules we're not following these days. What makes those non-followed statuates any different from the homosexuality statute? What gives YOU the right to decide which of those you will and won't follow? Why then do you pick that ONE restriction to try and enforce over all others, other than personal reasons? Aren't you being an awful christian for not following those other restrictions, since by your own statements following Leviticus is absolutely vital? Why should any of us listen to your pontificating and ranting when you're obviously cherry-picking statutes that you will and won't follow?

Homosexuality is mentioned and condemned several times throughout the Bible. You can't say that homosexuality carries equal weight to that of eating a lobster or lying down next to a menstruating woman. That's just plain stupid.

by **Minrott** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 1:42 am

Homosexuality is mentioned and condemned several times throughout the Bible. You can't say that homosexuality carries equal weight to that of eating a lobster or lying down next to a menstruating woman. That's just plain stupid.

We were always taught, in the Evangelical Lutheran Church, that all sins, carried the same "weight." That it was man who decided taking the lord's name in vane was "less" sin than murder or rape.

Can you really not see how you contradict yourself time and time again? How you decide which passages you will take in context, then turn 180 degrees and take another completely literally?

by **Muglack** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 2:14 am

I am God. Not his servant, not his messenger, not his Ambassador. I am HIM. Now get down on your knees and smile like a donut.

by **Thon** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 10:53 am

God is gracious, loving and forgiving. I'm not 100% legalistic. If He were to smite us every time we sinned we'd all be dead by now wouldn't we? However, I think Christians should follow His commands as best we can. How hypocritical it would be of us to knowingly continue to commit sins when we have the decision-making ability to abstain from sinning.

i thought throughout most of the old testament god was quite into the whole smiting and wrath business. exile from eden for eating fruit, sodom and gomorrah, the great flood, killing of first borns, etc

it seemed like for any offense god opened up a can of holy whoop-ass

then in the new testament god seems like a hippy, all loving and forgiving. was god on the rag in the old testament or something?

by **Langston** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 11:05 am

That's a common question, Thon - and the best answer I ever heard was that in the Old Testament the Jewish peoples were just "born" as a nation and were being fostered through the kill-or-be-killed world of the world's early civilization.

Consider it a form of Tough Love from God - and later once mankind had "matured" as a race God changed his style of teaching... much like a parent does with a child... you don't reason with a 2 year old... you say "No. Daddy said No."... when they're older and understand more you begin to explain and convince more than just mandate.

Not saying this is a perfect explanation by any standard - but it's the best I've heard.

by **Tossica** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 11:09 am

Or maybe it's men writing stories.

by **10sun** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 11:24 am

Quoted because it made me giggle a bit.

I'm very happy I found Jesus and that He rescued me from satan and the life I was living.

And then a late night train of thought came to be.

Do you believe Satan is a sentient being if he does in fact exist?
How much knowledge does Satan have of this world?
Enough so that the world is balanced with good & evil?
Or is there an overall decline in morality that has lead to decadant things such as FEMALE, HOMOSEXUAL pastors?
Would that in fact mean that Satan has more power in this world than God these days?
How is that possible for God to not be the most powerful being?
Maybe God is still firmly in command then?

If so shut the fuck up and stop whining so goddamn much.

-Adam

by **Thon** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 11:34 am

Consider it a form of Tough Love from God - and later once mankind had "matured" as a race God changed his style of teaching... much like a parent does with a child... you don't reason with a 2 year old... you say "No. Daddy said No."... when they're older and understand more you begin to explain and convince more than just mandate

i see a stark difference between a spanking or firm tone of voice, and genocide

by **Narrock** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 2:14 pm

10sun wrote:Quoted because it made me giggle a bit.
I'm very happy I found Jesus and that He rescued me from satan and the life I was living.

And then a late night train of thought came to be.

Do you believe Satan is a sentient being if he does in fact exist?
How much knowledge does Satan have of this world?
Enough so that the world is balanced with good & evil?
Or is there an overall decline in morality that has lead to decadant things such as FEMALE, HOMOSEXUAL pastors?
Would that in fact mean that Satan has more power in this world than God these days?
How is that possible for God to not be the most powerful being?
Maybe God is still firmly in command then?

If so shut the fuck up and stop whining so goddamn much.

-Adam

Hi Adam

I believe that satan has a grasp on millions of people worldwide. I don't know how much power he has. I just know that he's an evil, deceiving asshat who's power will some day be decimated when Jesus comes back. Is there an overall decline in morality these days? Gee I don't know... turn on your tv, open the newspaper and ask yourself the same question.
I believe God is still the most powerful being, and that he has empowered us with the ability to make decisions and choices. Maybe this is all just a big test... to see if we choose Him, or the evil one.

by **Langston** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 2:23 pm

Genocide has so much more "POW!" to it though...

by **Zanchief** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 2:26 pm

Hell, Ive seen a UFO and people call me retarded to this day.

You're retarded.

by **Harrison** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 5:57 pm

I cry now.

by **Jirig** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 1:27 am

WTF?

Mindia wrote:Tossica, why don't you make the attempt to start contributing to threads instead of making mockeries out of them. Perhaps you'd be better off posting in NBA, punk rock, gemini turntables, tattoos, and whores threads. Please leave serious threads to the adults. Thank you very much.

I post in those threads.

So let me see if I have this right...

Mindia starts a controversial topic on religion, knowing the backlash he's going to be receiving in turn. Tossica, in addition to other harmless board monkeys, come out and do what they do best... rip your logic to shreds.

Instead of turning the other cheek, like a true christian would have done, Mindia gets all defensive and calls everyone who posts in said threads immature children.

I think I have that much correct... but the drama escalates!

Mindia starts quoting passages from the bible explaining why homosexuality is immoral. Arlos follows up by quoting passages, from the same book in the bible, explaining (via Mindia's logic) how antiquated the bible can be when you apply archaic "laws" to today's culture.

The way I see it, Mindia is a hypocrite. He throws religion and the bible in your face. When someone proves Mindia wrong, rather than follow his own advice, he's reduced to a sniveling <cough, cough> child who then begins to belittle everyone who takes the opposite point of view.

That's my humble opinion on Mindia.

On the topic? I'm a conservative agnostic. I believe there might be a "supreme being" out there somewhere... but I don't care either way. Religion, in theory, is a very admirable concept. It helps people comprehend the differences between right and wrong and how to act in divergent situations. Personally, I use my magic eight ball. :p

by **Tae-Bo** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 1:29 am

dang....

i hate the devil

by **Witty** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:25 am

"Today I'll play the part of non-parent.
Not make 100 rules for you to know about yourself.
Not lie and make you believe what's evil
Is making love and making friends
And meeting god your own way, the right way."

Spirituality is for spiritual people. They never "know", yet lots somehow find arrogance in the fact that it is "knowing." Continue to preach it off as "knowing" and frequently oppress others for having different "knowledge", even of their own religion. Religion can be a wonderful sense of purpose, can tie together all which you have wondered and bring a sense of community and positive role models for your children. Or it can make you an ignorant fuck who's just out to show other's they're "right." I've never met a christian in real life who's as fuckheaded as Mindia. Something about him gives me this strange conceptualization that he preaches bullshit. Way to go

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