Hey Garg, this post is for you

[DangerPaul]

This is a break off post from the Michael Richards thread so you do not miss it and because I haven't started a controversial thread in a while.

One
There Is No Single Group Clearly Responsible For The Crime Of Slavery

Black Africans and Arabs were responsible for enslaving the ancestors of African-Americans. There were 3,000 black slave-owners in the ante-bellum United States. Are reparations to be paid by their descendants too?

Two
There Is No One Group That Benefited Exclusively From Its Fruits

The claim for reparations is premised on the false assumption that only whites have benefited from slavery. If slave labor created wealth for Americans, then obviously it has created wealth for black Americans as well, including the descendants of slaves. The GNP of black America is so large that it makes the African-American community the 10th most prosperous "nation" in the world. American blacks on average enjoy per capita incomes in the range of twenty to fifty times that of blacks living in any of the African nations from which they were kidnapped.

Three
Only A Tiny Minority Of White Americans Ever Owned Slaves, And Others Gave Their Lives To Free Them

Only a tiny minority of Americans ever owned slaves. This is true even for those who lived in the ante-bellum South where only one white in five was a slaveholder. Why should their descendants owe a debt? What about the descendants of the 350,000 Union soldiers who died to free the slaves? They gave their lives. What possible moral principle would ask them to pay (through their descendants) again?

Four
America Today Is A Multi-Ethnic Nation and Most Americans Have No Connection (Direct Or Indirect) To Slavery

The two great waves of American immigration occurred after 1880 and then after 1960. What rationale would require Vietnamese boat people, Russian refuseniks, Iranian refugees, and Armenian victims of the Turkish persecution, Jews, Mexicans Greeks, or Polish, Hungarian, Cambodian and Korean victims of Communism, to pay reparations to American blacks?

Five
The Historical Precedents Used To Justify The Reparations Claim Do Not Apply, And The Claim Itself Is Based On Race Not Injury

The historical precedents generally invoked to justify the reparations claim are payments to Jewish survivors of the Holocaust, Japanese-Americans and African- American victims of racial experiments in Tuskegee, or racial outrages in Rosewood and Oklahoma City. But in each case, the recipients of reparations were the direct victims of the injustice or their immediate families. This would be the only case of reparations to people who were not immediately affected and whose sole qualification to receive reparations would be racial. As has already been pointed out, during the slavery era, many blacks were free men or slave-owners themselves, yet the reparations claimants make no distinction between the roles blacks actually played in the injustice itself. Randall Robinson's book on reparations, The Debt, which is the manifesto of the reparations movement is pointedly sub-titled "What America Owes To Blacks." If this is not racism, what is?

Six
The Reparations Argument Is Based On The Unfounded Claim That All African-American Descendants of Slaves Suffer From The Economic Consequences Of Slavery And Discrimination

No evidence-based attempt has been made to prove that living individuals have been adversely affected by a slave system that was ended over 150 years ago. But there is plenty of evidence the hardships that occurred were hardships that individuals could and did overcome. The black middle-class in America is a prosperous community that is now larger in absolute terms than the black underclass. Does its existence not suggest that economic adversity is the result of failures of individual character rather than the lingering after-effects of racial discrimination and a slave system that ceased to exist well over a century ago? West Indian blacks in America are also descended from slaves but their average incomes are equivalent to the average incomes of whites ( and nearly 25% higher than the average incomes of American born blacks). How is it that slavery adversely affected one large group of descendants but not the other? How can government be expected to decide an issue that is so subjective - and yet so critical - to the case?

Seven
The Reparations Claim Is One More Attempt To Turn African-Americans Into Victims. It Sends A Damaging Message To The African-American Community.

The renewed sense of grievance -- which is what the claim for reparations will inevitably create -- is neither a constructive nor a helpful message for black leaders to be sending to their communities and to others. To focus the social passions of African-Americans on what some Americans may have done to their ancestors fifty or a hundred and fifty years ago is to burden them with a crippling sense of victim-hood. How are the millions of refugees from tyranny and genocide who are now living in America going to receive these claims, moreover, except as demands for special treatment, an extravagant new handout that is only necessary because some blacks can't seem to locate the ladder of opportunity within reach of others -- many less privileged than themselves?

Eight
Reparations To African Americans Have Already Been Paid

Since the passage of the Civil Rights Acts and the advent of the Great Society in 1965, trillions of dollars in transfer payments have been made to African-Americans in the form of welfare benefits and racial preferences (in contracts, job placements and educational admissions) - all under the rationale of redressing historic racial grievances. It is said that reparations are necessary to achieve a healing between African-Americans and other Americans. If trillion dollar restitutions and a wholesale rewriting of American law (in order to accommodate racial preferences) for African-Americans is not enough to achieve a "healing," what will?

Nine
What About The Debt Blacks Owe To America?

Slavery existed for thousands of years before the Atlantic slave trade was born, and in all societies. But in the thousand years of its existence, there never was an anti-slavery movement until white Christians - Englishmen and Americans -- created one. If not for the anti-slavery attitudes and military power of white Englishmen and Americans, the slave trade would not have been brought to an end. If not for the sacrifices of white soldiers and a white American president who gave his life to sign the Emancipation Proclamation, blacks in America would still be slaves. If not for the dedication of Americans of all ethnicities and colors to a society based on the principle that all men are created equal, blacks in America would not enjoy the highest standard of living of blacks anywhere in the world, and indeed one of the highest standards of living of any people in the world. They would not enjoy the greatest freedoms and the most thoroughly protected individual rights anywhere. Where is the gratitude of black America and its leaders for those gifts?

Ten
The Reparations Claim Is A Separatist Idea That Sets African-Americans Against The Nation That Gave Them Freedom

Blacks were here before the Mayflower. Who is more American than the descendants of African slaves? For the African-American community to isolate itself even further from America is to embark on a course whose implications are troubling. Yet the African-American community has had a long-running flirtation with separatists, nationalists and the political left, who want African-Americans to be no part of America's social contract. African Americans should reject this temptation.

For all America's faults, African-Americans have an enormous stake in their country and its heritage. It is this heritage that is really under attack by the reparations movement. The reparations claim is one more assault on America, conducted by racial separatists and the political left. It is an attack not only on white Americans, but on all Americans -- especially African-Americans.

America's African-American citizens are the richest and most privileged black people alive -- a bounty that is a direct result of the heritage that is under assault. The American idea needs the support of its African-American citizens. But African-Americans also need the support of the American idea. For it is this idea that led to the principles and institutions that have set African-Americans - and all of us -- free.

I cannot wait to see your rebuttal to this.

[Ginzburgh]

On a similar note, some fucking black cunt just hung up on me at Walmart when I asked her a simple question:

"Is walmart getting Cartoon Racing on the DS any time in the near future?"

"I DONT EVEN HAVE IT ON MY LIST" *click*

Fucking bitch, I hope she doesn't wonder why she works at walmart. I can only take comfort in the fact that her life is miserable.

[Gargamellow]

Before we argue all day about racism, slavery, and the poverty level in the US, please visit this website and review the documents.

http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/ ... es_wealth/

[Ginzburgh]

Why don't you just sum up the statistics for us.

[Gargamellow]

I already have. You guys just refuse to listen. So I posted a website that would show you government numbers that would support my claims. Yet, instead of reading through them, you choose to put it all on me to go through them AGAIN and sum them up for you. I don't think that's my responsibility, number one. And two, I know you would only tyell me how wrong I was or how I misinterpreted the data. So feel free to study the data and then we can talk.

[DangerPaul]

What exactly are you trying to prove or claim? All I have ever read from you is baseless claims of things that you misinterpreted from your professors or the misinformation they have given you. Believe me, I am probably one of the biggest supporters of all the races. You just never argue a legitimate fact, you just spew stupid shit which confuses all of us. So again I ask, what fact are you trying to "learn us non-educated folk" with a link to the US census beureau?

[Jay]

Garg = Old Mindia.

[Gaazy]

hahaha

[DangerPaul]

don't flame her in this thread, she will lose track of the issue and go on blathering about how I need to read a book or something, I truly want to hear her rebuttal to my original post

[Ginzburgh]

Yet, instead of reading through them, you choose to put it all on me to go through them AGAIN and sum them up for you

Ok, since you have already posted the claims, do you mind copying and pasting. I didn't read through the michael richards thread. This is all new to me.

[Gargamellow]

do your own research and you will learn more

i am done with this conversation..let's argue about something else..this is a dead subject and i don't want to talk about it anymore with you stubborn bastards

[Ginzburgh]

Whatever you say Nigger lover.

[Gargamellow]

you are such a great example of the men in charge of this country..i think i will nominate you for president...

...or perhaps seinfeild is looking for someone new to work with..you seem the type

[Ginzburgh]

Good luck with your crusade. I'm pretty sure you won't make it off your couch.

[Phlegm]

On a similar note, some fucking black cunt just hung up on me at Walmart when I asked her a simple question:

"Is walmart getting Cartoon Racing on the DS any time in the near future?"

"I DONT EVEN HAVE IT ON MY LIST" *click*

Fucking bitch, I hope she doesn't wonder why she works at walmart. I can only take comfort in the fact that her life is miserable.

She answered your question. What more do you want?

[Gargamellow]

I am already involved with my community and I plan to extend that if I can someday.

You=sheep..so don't bother responding to my posts.

Besides, you have said enough for a lifetime of impressions as far as I am concerned. I will no longer care what you post. When I see Gin...I will automatically think,"bigot moron who refuses to read a few pages of text in order to participate in a discussion."

(My impression is that you are an idiot..in case you don't understand what I have said so far.)

[DangerPaul]

do your own research and you will learn more

i am done with this conversation..let's argue about something else..this is a dead subject and i don't want to talk about it anymore with you stubborn bastards

that is why you will never hold any of my respect or belief in you. Opportunity given to prove your point and you do nothing but name call and sidestep the issue.

[Ginzburgh]

She answered your question. What more do you want?

Some courtesy perhaps?

The following example pretty much sums it up:

When I held a door open for 10 white people, 10/10 of them said thank you.

When I held a door open for 10 black people, 3/10 of them said thank you.

And yes, I actually conducted that test.

[Ginzburgh]

I am already involved with my community and I plan to extend that if I can someday.

You=sheep..so don't bother responding to my posts.

Besides, you have said enough for a lifetime of impressions as far as I am concerned. I will no longer care what you post. When I see Gin...I will automatically think,"bigot moron who refuses to read a few pages of text in order to participate in a discussion."

(My impression is that you are an idiot..in case you don't understand what I have said so far.)

lol, sheep.

My life is better than yours. Period.

Baaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh!

[DangerPaul]

Before we argue all day about racism, slavery, and the poverty level in the US, please visit this website and review the documents.

http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/ ... es_wealth/

I looked at almost every single chart on there and look at that, white families hold a higher percentage of the families that are at or below the poverty level. So, care to explain to me that black people are worse off?

[Ginzburgh]

I saw the same thing.

[DangerPaul]

Also if you look deeper into it, the black families still got a higher dispersion of government assistance. So more whites at or below poverty level, more blacks receive benefits. Again, what is her argument? Mine is very clear.

[Ginzburgh]

My brother took the firefighter test in a big city in connecticut. Out of 1,500 guys he scored in the top 200 and guys that were black that were scoring 800+ were getting the job over him.

Not only is that shitty for my brother, who has been studying to be a fire fighter his whole life, it's shitty for the firefighter running into that burning house with a guy backing him up who isn't qualified. The NAACP would rather see firemen die than see a black guy not getting hired because he scored poorly on the test.

It boggles the mind.

[Ginzburgh]

And I work with black guys who are more than qualified to do their job. I am friends with black guys who are more than qualified to be my friend.

Just like down south, there are plenty of southern men who are good at what they do, and plenty of redneck hillbillies who are good at doing nothing.

The only difference between those redneck hillbillies who do nothing and black people who do nothing, is there are laws in place to reward those blacks just because of the color of their skin.

[Arlos]

To be fair, one of Garg's points: Racism Exists is inarguably true. There IS discrimination against african americans in basically every facet and aspect of society, though more or less so depending on where you are geographically. Of course, there is also discrimination against jewish people, asians, women, etc. in multiple areas of society as well.

In any case, the question that continues to get answered in differing ways is this: Given that we KNOW there is discrimination out there, if we as a society are trying to help people get past that, how do we go about doing it? Or is it something we should be worried about at a societal level at all, or something that needs to get handled on an individual level, but in which case what do you do to combat deep-rooted racism when you find it?

Also, one of the underlying assumptions behind affermative action type programs is that social background matters when it comes to achieving opportunities. The idea being that a black kid from Watts or Compton may be as smart or smarter than a given white kid from Beverly Hills, but won't score as well on standardized tests or get the same grades, due to lousy teachers/schools/nutrition/etc and so has a lower chance of getting into a good college than the white kid. So, is it appropriate to give some weighting based on background, to even up the disparity that that kid has no control over?

Honestly, I don't know. There's good arguments both ways; I don't think it's something that HAS One Right True Answer.

Now, if you ask me if I believe in reparations paid out to black people, just because some of them descend from slaves, that I will say hell no to.

-Arlos